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MC: Nether in SMP
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Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-05-20, 15:57

1.6 is dropping next week and that means Nether. I think we should plan out how we are going to utilize the Nether before we start building portals willy-nilly.

Specifically I think we should require strict permission from Brad to build any portals. The problem is that portals become unpredictable when placed in close proximity. If we all build portals near Bridgeport, the connections between those portals and the portals in the Nether can get weird.

So here's what I think we should do. I think we destroy all portals currently on the map so we don't get confused. Then I think we should build a portal in the middle or near the middle of Bridgeport. Then we should put portals at the extremes of the current skyway network. Then we would have five portals... and no more. No more portal construction after that, in either world.

Then we link them with a large stone structure in the Nether (rails? maybe, if they get fixed) so transit is ghast-free. I'm up for building most of this structure, I have experience with Nether construction and I also have a lot of free time so I will be able to do it pretty quickly.

And then we will have super fast transit from Bridgeport to the extremes of the map. It will also serve as a sort of "soft" boundary for exploring, i.e. don't go past the portals in either world.

Sound good?

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2011-05-20, 16:04

Well, I only know of two existing portals: the "trick" one at spawn and the one at Flaming Mountain.

If we de-trickyify the one at spawn it could stay. You'll have to talk to Grey about the one at FM: I personally think it should be "grandfathered" as it's kind of part of the design there. Although how he plans to get onto that balcony now, I'm not sure.


Before we make the Nether fully safe and not at all scary: isn't that kind of the point? I like the idea that a trip to the nether must be prepared for: so not just a simpler mode of transit but a proper adventure!
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Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-05-20, 16:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
If we de-trickyify the one at spawn it could stay. You'll have to talk to Grey about the one at FM: I personally think it should be "grandfathered" as it's kind of part of the design there. Although how he plans to get onto that balcony now, I'm not sure.
If people would rather have the one at the spawn stay, rather than moving it to Bridgeport, that's fine.

The one at FM might have to go because it might interfere with the one at the spawn. We can do some testing, though.

Quote:
Before we make the Nether fully safe and not at all scary: isn't that kind of the point? I like the idea that a trip to the nether must be prepared for: so not just a simpler mode of transit but a proper adventure!
Then walk outside

I know from talking on the server that at least few players would prefer a protected Nether transit system. Also, I really wanna build it

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2011-05-20, 16:59

I just love the concept:

"Hey guys, I managed to discover a way to make a PORTAL INTO HELL.

Woah, holy shit dude, what are you going to do with it?

I'll make it part of our Integrated Transit Policy."


WTF?

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Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-05-20, 17:07

I prefer to think of it as hyperspace.

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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-05-20, 17:17

I'll probably move the one that's currently on my balcony. The prospect of a ghast appearing in my living room does not excite me in the least.

There will still be one at Flaming Mountain though, I just have to figure out where to best put it. The, um, thing I'm building in hell directly under FM will need it.


Where to put the portal in BP is up for discussion. I'm fine with it where it is at spawn, but if y'all think it needs to be downtown I'm fine with that too.

So it goes.
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Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-05-20, 17:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
I'll probably move the one that's currently on my balcony. The prospect of a ghast appearing in my living room does not excite me in the least.

There will still be one at Flaming Mountain though, I just have to figure out where to best put it. The, um, thing I'm building in hell directly under FM will need it.
Okay, well let's first ensure that if we build a portal under FM it will create a corresponding portal in the Nether and not just link to the Nether side of the spawn portal. Because that can happen. I think FM is *just* far enough away from the spawn where it will be okay, but we should make sure.

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-05-20, 17:22

I think it's far enough away, but sure, we'll test it.
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Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-05-20, 17:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
I think it's far enough away, but sure, we'll test it.
I've been testing portals in SMP and the portal interference range is much further than it feels like it should be. I had portals about 500 blocks apart (only 60 blocks in the Nether) act strangely. FM is about 580 blocks from the spawn which is only 72 blocks in the Nether. That's definitely close enough for portal interference.

It might be okay, but it might not. If FM is too close for an independent portal then I think the priority should be the spawn.

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tidewater Virginia
 
2011-05-20, 17:55

I'm cool with the one staying in spawn for the BP area. Other than that, I'd say somewhat of a coordinated effort is definitely in order. Seeing what it does the to server and game performance being near the top of the list.

If we are all ok with experimentation, there are backups that could be used in the event of catastrophe. I like the idea of one at Flaming Mountain too. Plus, I know 709 wants one there. So how far away would it need to be to prevent issues?

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2011-05-20, 19:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
Specifically I think we should require strict permission from Brad to build any portals.
I don't care for the nether or "protected portal network" at all, personally, but if you guys want to use it sparingly, that's fine. Just know that introducing the nether opens a whole Pandora's box of risks and potential problems from the server management side. Running both the nether and the "normal" world, for example, effectively doubles the the realtime resource demand on the server (CPU and RAM) and makes runaway world growth easier than ever. I have no idea what the game will do when it hits the limit of the ramdisk. Will it seize up? Crash? Close gracefully? I'd bet on anything except for that last option. When that happens, how do we recover? Can we recover? Should we recover?

And these are just the obvious issues we actually know before launch. Think of the disasters weird performance issues we're having with minecart rails that nobody anticipated (or with the introduction of wolves, or reintroduction of slimes, or signs in the trap); no doubt there will be mystery problems aplenty with the nether that no one will recognize for a while and won't be fully understood even after we run a bunch of controlled tests.

I hate for you guys to make a ton of plans for nether like you did for rails and then a week later realize, whoops, you burned through a lot of time and thought and work but it doesn't work for Players A or B because of Mystery Problems X, Y, and Z.

If it was just up to me, I wouldn't even enable the nether (assuming there's an admin/mgmt option at all), but since you guys are hyped for it, on it will go.


My two slime cents.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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RowdyScot
Ice Arrow Sniper
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Great Bay Temple
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2011-05-20, 20:41

I like the idea of using it, but only if it can realistically be used. I'm doubting it will be.
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Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-05-20, 23:00

Okay, well here's the thing about portals. If we dont do it organized-like, then they will quickly become useless since the connections won't be predictable. So either we can place them in an organized fashion or we can just put portals everywhere and forget about using them for transport.

It's obviously up to you guys. I would prefer to have an organized transit system but if you guys care more about having portals in all your castles, then so be it.

The way to reduce server load and to try and make the nether usable is to limit the number of portals and the size of the nether. Hence my 5 portal boundary suggestion. But again, if people would prefer chaos, then go for it. Chaos seems fitting given the nature of the Nether.

Also, I'm not trying to be a party pooper, but at >600 blocks, I think the two existing portals will interfere with each other. We'll know next week, I guess.

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
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billybobsky
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
 
2011-05-20, 23:18

Uh.... I don't think they need to be that far apart, K... I was looking at the size constraints and it seems that for most people beyond the 10-16 meter range the portals don't get bounced...

Also: easiest way to control massive map expansion is to forbid building portals in the nether. Portals can only be built topside, no exceptions. This prevents the nether from getting too large (assuming exploration is limited ) and absolutely prevents the topside map from getting larger due to the nether.
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drewprops
Magnificent Basturd™
sagacious-d
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2011-05-20, 23:26

I'm unqualified to have an opinion about portals. I like the idea of having a hyperspace. I don't like the idea of unknown things happening, which is what computers tend to do when you're beta testing someone's code.

Caution!!

Excelsior!!

...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
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RowdyScot
Ice Arrow Sniper
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Great Bay Temple
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2011-05-20, 23:31

My worry is that using them will be what causes the issues. What happens to anyone using Clear?
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billybobsky
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
 
2011-05-20, 23:45

It no different than loading up a world...
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RowdyScot
Ice Arrow Sniper
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Great Bay Temple
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2011-05-21, 00:22

But both worlds are active on the server...simultaneously.
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billybobsky
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
 
2011-05-21, 00:43

I am not sure how you think that might affect the end user who is only getting data from one of the worlds...
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SpecMode
Wait what
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NorCal
 
2011-05-21, 00:56

It's the load on the server that's likely to be the problem. Remember the performance issues we saw when we switched to the first new server? That was caused by maxing the CPU (since the server program is apparently single-threaded, it will only ever use one CPU core, so the speed of a single core is your effective limit). If the server is having to manage two world maps at once, it's that much easier to hit that limit and kill performance for everyone.
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billybobsky
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
 
2011-05-21, 10:37

Yes, exactly... It will be an issue spread to all users and not just those on shitty internet like myself and Robo...
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Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-05-26, 11:06

There's an option to turn off the nether completely. Should we do that?

I think we probably should, because I have a feeling that it will crush server performance.

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-05-26, 11:21

We should at least take a peek inside and maybe gather some resources in the immediate area. As long as there's no expeditions for hundreds and hundreds of blocks (unlikely) it may be OK to keep it open, at least temporarily.

Would an Overworld prune help? We're probably due for one.

So it goes.
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drewprops
Magnificent Basturd™
sagacious-d
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2011-05-26, 11:23

Off-topic (click to toggle):

is single player mode a world of our own? I've never tried it. Does it stay put... let you build whatever you want?



...
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-05-26, 11:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
Off-topic (click to toggle):

is single player mode a world of our own? I've never tried it. Does it stay put... let you build whatever you want?



...
Off-topic (click to toggle):

Yes.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tidewater Virginia
 
2011-05-26, 18:13

I seems like we should allow it for the sake of seeing it if nothing else. Then we can disable it later if it is a problem.
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2011-05-26, 18:59

"What could go wrong?"
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-05-26, 19:18

Imma wait until you're all inside exploring and unlight the portal.
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2011-05-26, 19:39

Does the portal on the other end then disappear? Or simply need relighting?
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SpecMode
Wait what
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NorCal
 
2011-05-26, 19:48

Dunno. There's never been a situation where it would happen, so I guess you guys get to find out the hard way!
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