[Matsu]

The partisan dimensions are fair enough game given the subject of ex-presidents, but we're all a little guilty of a what-about-ism reflex here.

Biden has nothing to do with Trump's predicaments and his (Biden's) problems are his own. Mainly, that though his own case for a second term is actually quite strong on the merits of the effectiveness/productivity of his office, he's increasingly unable to escape the image of his own decline. It's a bit sad that he's losing the ability to present himself positively regardless of the capacities that he still possesses - experience, judgement, a considerable network of Washington, State, and bipartisan players. It's politics and he doesn't look good on camera anymore, and that's a problem. He's older, and that's its own real risk, not just imagined, but hardly unique.

I know that often the choices aren't ideal, but there's simply no comparison here. The former President is a misanthropic, unstable, amoral megalomaniac; a serial fraudster; a con-man; a traitor. America has so far been spared some greater catastrophe only because he's also stupid. Sure he has skills, he's like an idiot savant of greed, corruption, and flattery, but he's not "smart" at anything else. He's completely outclassed by virtually any head of state in any country, and would be at a disadvantage anywhere were it not for the power that emanates from the Office of the President of the United States. Unfit doesn't begin to cover it. The nightmare of his second term would only accelerate America's decline into an unfettered cleptocracy. Should his name again appear on a ballot, virtually any other option is automatically preferable.

[709]

Originally Posted by turtle Team Constitution is it!

I knew you'd see the light eventually. Welcome aboard!

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by turtle Team Constitution is it!

The day politicians follow the constitution (regardless of the country in question) is the day I start drinking a 6 pack a day (I don’t drink). They constantly try to push the bountaries, try to use aspects of them to advance a cause, even if that is not the intent of the law. That’s why the Supreme Court (at least here in Canada) is constantly reining them in, telling them to throw out laws or re-write them to fall within the constitution. Of course the constitution is a joke in Canada because the provinces can use the not withstanding clause to get around it. Heck, one province hasn’t even ratified it, and somehow that’s okay.

[kscherer]

The Democrats get to hang their hat on the dementia-hobbled, corrupt, old white man and his corrupt sidekick, and Republicans get to hang their hat on Trump.



Seriously, both of you can do better than this, if only you'd stop voting for the letter (which is all you're actually doing — it matters not a lick whose name follows the letter).

Lessor of two evils? Well, a vote for the lessor of two evils is still a vote for evil, and I won't cast my vote with evil, so neither of these assholes is getting my vote. So, you folks have fun with it. No matter which way you vote, the other half of the country will lovingly hate you for it.

[psmith2.0]

Not even “lovingly”. We saw, just one week ago, how spun up/unreasonable some folks get when others don’t agree with them on big things. We’re a nation of those people now, most, hopefully, with better manners and not such unhinged levels of social retardation.

[Matsu]

Let’s not use cynicism to offer a false equivalency. Sometimes one side offers a clearly, objectively, better choice. This feels more like contempt dressed up as a world weary disguise.

I’ve voted for municipal, provincial and federal candidates of all three major political allegiances. I never fooled myself into thinking that it’s a lifetime commitment, or that any of them would be perfect. I have some ideological leanings. I have policy preferences. I try to be realistic. I feel like I’ve reached a point in my life where I can separate my own preferences, what I “like” from what could be considered broadly “good” or “bad” in much the same way I know I like to eat certain things that I probably shouldn’t, and will eat others I’d rather not, because the weight of evidence is that it does me some good.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by Matsu Let’s not use cynicism to offer a false equivalency.

Yes, I am a cynic. Joe Biden and family are not acting on the behalf of America. However, I will concede that he will say whatever is necessary to make it seem like he is.

I feel precisely the same way about Donald Trump.

Both are actors on a stage of power, prestige, and self-interest. Sitting outside of the two-party system permits me to see this.

[psmith2.0]

Same.

That it came/comes down to two such bozos is the real issue/problem here, no matter how we dress it up/talk about loftier notions. But that our two (feasible, realistic) options are Joe Biden and Donald Trump? Out of 300M+ people?!

How does that even happen? Honestly?

It's not funny anymore.

Anyone has the right to be cynical in the shadow of that nonsense.

Where are the statesmen? The thinkers? The people who've genuinely got it all figured out (and can act accordingly)? Actual, authentic know-it-alls (vs. the tiresome, obnoxious Internet variety). Both the above come up mentally short. One, medically. The other, because he's deranged and has never been punched in the mouth when richly deserved. Trump is the King of This is What Happens When a Deserved Ass-Beating Isn't Administered in a Timely, Effective Manner™, in their formative years, before terminal, chronic dickheadery permanently sets in and becomes a problem the rest of us have to constantly deal with.

Trump is a completely different person if he spent his childhood, teens and twenties getting his ass kicked on the regular.

That level of graceless, insolent and socially retarded personality only comes from a lifetime of being allowed to get away with it.

[709]

Originally Posted by kscherer ... Sitting outside of the two-party system permits me to see this.

[kscherer]

I know, it's funny, and also entirely untrue.

Although, over the years I have had to recognize that I am not actually a Libertarian, as I believe in the rule of law, both spiritually and physically. Humans cannot survive without law, and I am a proponent of good laws that do not limit free expression while simultaneously limiting my ability to force my views upon others.

That's a difficult balance, and neither the Republican nor Democratic parties adhere to this principle. Both parties choose to vastly limit self expression while simultaneously demanding the right to force their views upon the other side.

Because of that, I see both Biden and Trump are two sides of the same coin, each striving to force their shit down my throat whilst demanding that no-one shit down theirs. Screw them both!

And you'd be surprised at how well I both understand and appreciate the system in which I live. I appreciate that I am am mostly free, but I also understand that I am governed by two parties both vying to undermine that freedom.

[drewprops]

A lot of people have been pushed out into the middle by the extremists within a party they once identified with at a level so deep in the fabric of their personal identity that they feel cast adrift yet retain a trace of loyalty that does not allow them to let go of the old fights. One day they may be so numerous that they look around and recognize that they have things in common. At least, that's how I do it with my action figures.


...

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by kscherer I know, it's funny, and also entirely untrue.

Eh, it's pretty true. At the 2016 Libertarian Party debate, Gary Johnson got boo'd for saying he doesn't support legalizing the sale of heroin to minors. C'mon.

Gov. Jared Polis had their number a few years ago when he blasted the Colorado LP when he pointed out that he, the Democrat, was the one running an a pro-liberty agenda, while they endorsed the GOP candidate instead:

“And if you run more pro-liberty candidates who support a woman’s right to choose, the freedom to marry who you love, reducing the income tax, private property rights to build housing on your own land, and legal Cannabis and Psilocybin small businesses then… maybe you can start calling your nominees Democrats,” he wrote.

The Libertarian Party is a fundamentally unserious group of dilettantes.

[drewprops]

You know, they lost some of their most vocal salesmen more than a decade ago. There was a slowly building momentum, but now, not so much. Maybe enough people got a taste of the Paul family craziness?


...

[psmith2.0]

The only way to win is not to play.

[Matsu]

And yet the way must be tried. What else is there?

[psmith2.0]

Not playing?

What "must" be tried?

Says who?

If the choice is minding my own business, taking care of myself and those I care for, following the rules/obeying the laws, not shooting up bowling alleys and grocery stores, staying out of trouble and not being part of the problem in things, or staying spun-up over fucking "politics" (and certain individuals) 24/7 and having that stuff drive my existence and be all I think/talk about, I'll take the former every time.

Politics doesn't need me, there are enough hopped-up, interested (obsessed?) people to feed that beast. I'm not contributing to all that noise and rancor on an ongoing, serious basis. It's pointless. A certain recently banned member does the work of any 3-4 folks here, so relax. He can carry a lot on his on his earnest, hopped-up shoulders, since it all seems to spin him out so completely. People like him are a big part of why I'm the way I am about it. Just isn't worth the petty, stupid-ass little battles and pissing contests, and assorted, clownery always making stuff exceedingly personal.

Who needs it?

I'm 54...I'm much too old for that silly shit. Life isn't junior high. I wish the damn message would get around a little better than it seems to.

I have nobody to vote for, and, frankly, I'm tired of pretending otherwise.

[Matsu]

I’m just talking democracy at the lowest level of commitment - voting - because failing to choose the least bad choice is a good way to end up with the most bad choice.

[psmith2.0]

Ain't my problem, or my fault. I didn't set this up, and make these people "the best we have to offer". When everyone else starts to take it a bit more seriously (when the viable choices are beyond Trump and Biden), then I may feel motivated to as well. I've "played along" my entire life, well, since I was 18.

Be happy. You don't want me in this mix, these discussions, etc.

[turtle]

I'm all for the voting part. Of course, it isn't vote the least bad choice. It is vote the one that best aligns with your views and beliefs.

The least bad choice can sometimes be on the complete opposite end of the spectrum from what you consider acceptable just because they play politics and run with the status quo.

[psmith2.0]

I wish someone who aligns with my views and beliefs would occasionally seek office.

As I said upthread, I'd love to vote for someone, before I die.

All I've ever done is cancel out someone else's Hillary, etc.

That's not even fun/rewarding.

I'll figure it out. It's not for anyone here to worry about or concern themselves with. I'm not a teenager throwing a hissy fit. Nothing like that at all.

[kscherer]

I considered picking sides and would have voted for Tulsi Gabbard, but alas, Democrats moved so far to the left of their own party that it is no longer recognizable. Instead of choosing a highly qualified woman who was (is) a classical Democrat, they chose to defy their "values" and elected an old-ass white man whose past is so obviously contrary to the current woke-crowd ideology that it's utterly astonishing that they chose him. But, he was (and still is) really good at saying whatever the party wants to hear. And apparently that's all it takes.

As far as Republicans go, they've drifted so far to the right that the only way to be a "Republican" any more is to mimic a narcissistic, finger-pointing hypocrite with more closet skeletons than a graveyard.

I don't think there are any Democrats or Republicans left in politics. There are either woke, check-boxing social engineers, or fascist, Bible-thumping hypocrites.

The Democrats remind me of Cersei Lannister from GOT, and the Republicans remind me of Carnegie from The Book of Eli. While the Democrats are plotting and scheming to eliminate their enemies, the Republicans are using the Bible as a weapon. Funny thing about movies: They tend to get it right reagarding how things turn out for those personalities. Eventually, the piper comes to call.

[Matsu]

We can either work to present better choice to a wider audience, and get them elected, or choose the least bad option prescribed for us by others, or do nothing. A large majority of the population does the latter two already.

A comparatively small subset opportunistically attempts to craft the choice. If they are the problem, then doing nothing is at least as enabling as taking one of their prescriptions.

I want to add, I appreciate all your thoughts. We perhaps don’t tell each other. For my part I often come away from the chat with new things to consider.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Matsu I’m just talking democracy at the lowest level of commitment - voting - because failing to choose the least bad choice is a good way to end up with the most bad choice.

When all you have is bad choices, which is essentially the issue with western democracy right now, it’s sad. Either way, we lose.

With the way things are now nothing really changes day to day living regardless of who wins. Sure the exterior trappings (moral religious stuff one way or the other) change, but when it comes to improving the general slide of the big issues we face, none of choices do much of anything. I still vote, because I agree, it’s just disheartening.

Create a new choice? That takes a lot of money, which is how we got into this downward spiral in the firsts place. Political power is not from voters, it’s from big money at the end of the day. We are stuck with who the rich choose for us.

[turtle]

Originally Posted by Matsu We can either work to present better choice to a wider audience, and get them elected, or choose the least bad option prescribed for us by others, or do nothing. A large majority of the population does the latter two already. A comparatively small subset opportunistically attempts to craft the choice. If they are the problem, then doing nothing is at least as enabling as taking one of their prescriptions. I want to add, I appreciate all your thoughts. We perhaps don’t tell each other. For my part I often come away from the chat with new things to consider.

The best we can do is try to get a "good" candidate through the primary process. Do I expect to get anyone through the primaries other than Trump for the conservative side, nope. I'll be shocked if there is even a candidate that gets within 10% of Trump. I can assure you, he isn't my choice but I will vote for him over anything the liberals throw out there.

We are back to the "most closely aligns with my views" thing. Is it who I want, no. No more than I'm guessing any of the liberals ACTUALLY want Sleepy Joe again.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by Matsu I want to add, I appreciate all your thoughts. We perhaps don’t tell each other. For my part I often come away from the chat with new things to consider.

Reasonable dialogue and debate is the only way we can work through our differences. Shouting, name-calling, burning cities to the ground, ramming your car through crowds — none of these will ever lead us to peaceable compromises that permit us all to live together in a reasonably safe environment in which our children can grow old peacefully and their children, etc.

I appreciate cool-headed debate, and can even get along with an occasional hot-headed response.

As Paul stated, there are some people who refuse to be reasonable and prefer to destroy. Those people should not be listened to, nor should we give them a platform to spout their hatred. If we can talk like adults, then we will be fine. It's when we devolve into squabbling children that all hell breaks loose.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by turtle The best we can do is try to get a "good" candidate through the primary process. Do I expect to get anyone through the primaries other than Trump for the conservative side, nope. I'll be shocked if there is even a candidate that gets within 10% of Trump. I can assure you, he isn't my choice but I will vote for him over anything the liberals throw out there. We are back to the "most closely aligns with my views" thing. Is it who I want, no. No more than I'm guessing any of the liberals ACTUALLY want Sleepy Joe again.

I see Trump as the worst possible option, but I see Biden (actually, his successor, Kamala Harris) as the wolf in sheep's clothing: Always smiling and saying nice things whilst screwing the people over to pad their trust funds. They don't care if we live or die, eat or go hungry, freeze or roast. They say they do, but they don't!

I cannot and will not vote for either of these options. I will never, ever, sign my name to such evil!

[Frank777]

The big difference is, when someone like Trump is in office, the Press actually does its job.

[kscherer]

Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Frank777 The big difference is, when someone like Trump is in office, the Press actually does its job.

Sadly this is somewhat true. Part of it comes down to how the press does things now. Fewer and fewer real journalists, more and more rinse and repeat stories. When someone does real digging, they get flushed out. Journalists are too busy telling a side of the stories rather than just presenting what a happening. Hard work to do, but it felt like they were much better at it in the past.