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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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Will be fun to see.
I seem to have read somewhere that a guy got Windows for ARM working on an M1 Mac. I didn't read much or look into performance, but it was working. So it may not be very far off. However, I think the market is going to need Microsoft's cooperation. - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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Here, using QEMU: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads...1-mac.2272013/ (Note that QEMU is mostly used to emulate the portions that Apple's Hypervisor.framework doesn't include, such as networking. The actual CPU virtualization is done by Apple.) This setup reaches 1288/5449 scores inside Windows, using an ARM build of Geekbench. That single-threaded score is faster than any Intel Mac, but it does represent an overhead of about 32%. And here, using Parallels: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads...#post-29408765 Again, the bulk of the virtualization is already done included in macOS, not provided by Parallels. With Parallels, the Geekbench/ARM/virtualized Windows score is 1523/2825. I'm guessing faffoo had their VM configured to just two cores; I didn't think to ask. So the multi-core score is a little misleading. That single-core score, though!* That's just a 11.6% overhead now. And these are both with no optimizations yet. The first is basically someone's QEMU hackjob; the second is a professional approach by Parallels, but their very first beta nonetheless, and I believe they have made no mention of Windows-specific ARM optimizations yet. Now, to be clear, all of this does leave open the question: how about x86 apps running inside the emulator inside that VM? Quote:
I don't think either Apple or Microsoft are bothered by the idea, but Apple (and perhaps also Microsoft) just don't seem particularly invested in making it as smooth as possible. Yet? *) There isn't currently any laptop CPU, from either AMD or Intel, that will reach this score natively. The closest is Intel's Tiger Lake i7-1165G7, at 1408. |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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2 things:
1) Those performance scores are bananas. The M1 is a little beast! 2) The reference to Microsoft I made is that I think we will need their cooperation as far as licensing Windows for ARM. As I understand it, they do not currently do that, so it may be hard to find [legal] copies to install in the first place. - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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(But, I imagine a lot of people interested in running Windows 10 on M1 are so for development purposes, e.g. to test their code in different environments. And many of those will have an MSDN subscription through their employer, in which case they can in fact just download it from my.visualstudio.com. Now, if your use case is "I want to run an old app / my company has this one weird business app", yeah, there's currently no valid license for that.) |
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*AD SPACE FOR SALE*
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cleveland-ish, OH
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I just got my Mac Mini M1 w/ 16GB RAM and 256 SSD yesterday. Unfortunately I have to wait for Quickbooks Mac 2019 to update to be compatible with Big Sur. Quickbooks is the worst in terms of dragging their feet each year with updates for compatibility.
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*AD SPACE FOR SALE*
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cleveland-ish, OH
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Haven't tried. Can't risk it since it runs my company. A lot of people complaining on the QB community about not being compatible but for whatever reason we had one person accidentally upgrade to Big Sur and it's running, but they are not hosting the server file, which is on my computer. I'll just wait until they officially say.
They just had an update a couple days ago but it didn't mention it. Weirdly enough, the one on Big Sur had an update where it did mention Big Sur compatibility but QB still does not list 2019 as compatible and the update numbers are not the same between the two. I'd rather be way safer then sorry in this situation. Die young and save yourself.... @yontsey |
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Mr. Vieira
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
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This is one of those situations where I could see Apple providing a first-party, really nice (and easy-to-use) financial/accounting app. One that did everything Quickbooks and Quicken does, and, like all their other home-grown titles, is always updated to run in the latest OS and whatever architecture (M1 for now, and whatever the future holds).
Off-topic (click to toggle):
Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-01-09 at 09:46. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
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I think I'd want them to focus on quality MacOS releases before diving into new software areas. With accounting, besides QB you do have the more-pricey Xero and the no-pricey Wave Accounting. And a number of packages in-between. I don't see a lot of value for Apple to enter this space. Maybe offer a special free trial to one of them to light a fire under the perennially-late QuickBooks. |
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Sneaky Punk
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Considering that Apples first party software has, generally, been getting worse year over year for the last 6-10 years, wishing for more first party apps, isn’t exactly something I’d want to see. They need to focus on what they have now, and make it actually usable.
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Mr. Vieira
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
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Are these apps (and, if so, both Mac and iOS)? Or are they web-based? If so, are they tight/secure? Any breaches or hacks/trouble so far? Seems a week/month doesn't go by that we hear about some big data leak/breach, and often by big companies I've actually heard of, which makes me a little more nervous about some of these smaller, newer outfits. I know Intuit and all their stuff is the big monkey in the room, and have years of reputation/trust to go on. But Apple does as well. Maybe even more so, since they've got their fingers into so many pies already on the financial/transaction/cloud front and things seem to be running smoothly and safe for everyone. But, for the things I'm specifically thinking about, I know an in-house Apple solution (for free, or even $49-99 if needed) would surely do a more thorough job, just with all the things they've got laid in place and already up and working? I probably don't either. But I know I would've said the same thing, 20 years ago, about digital video, music, etc. For people who are fully Apple-based (Mac, iPhone, iPad, etc.), it seems like something they could craft and control and make a very slick solution for. Relieve Intuit of their Apple-related worries/hassles. Quote:
It probably won't happen, no. But it's the one software thing I've kinda gone back to, again and again, in recent years. Wondering "wouldn't it be kinda nice if...", knowing how friends and relatives of mine using some of these other things (Quicken, primarily) always seem to be grousing, or in wait-and-see mode, on an ongoing, annual basis. I'd be more impressed with this sort of thing from Apple, as opposed to further developments on the superior selfie-taking front. That there's a crew of folks inside that spaceship working on this makes me want to slap my head with a brick or three. Quote:
Don't lie...everyone here can imagine him saying that in that Snagglepuss, sing-songy voice of his. Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-01-09 at 11:20. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
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Don't think I've seen any mention here about Intel's response to the M1.
I'm actually rooting for them to regain their footing in chip design and production. Silicon is now indispensable to modern life and given current world tensions, I'm not sure it's wise for North America to have all our eggs in a Taiwanese basket. |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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Yes, but Intel still has an energy problem that X86 cannot solve. They may well get some speed back and increase efficiency, but then the next-gen M-series will drop and reset the board.
Intel is trying to catch up in a race its architecture cannot win. - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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meh
Join Date: May 2004
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Has Intel's issues been an architecture issue or a production issue? I thought their issues mostly has been a production issue where they have not been able to get off the 14nm process. Would Intel be running issues even if lets say they could also been on a 5nm process right now?
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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Yes, production is an issue, but as far as that whole "performance per watt" thing that Apple is after, X86 cannot catch up with it, because their architecture doesn't work that way. There are some pretty interesting articles linked back up the way that explain it in terms that cause my brain to smoke.
- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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Sneaky Punk
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*AD SPACE FOR SALE*
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cleveland-ish, OH
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So I believe Quickbooks finally updated their software so I can hook this bad boy up this week when I get time.
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And it's not like Apple came up with the concept; ARM had it several years earlier as "big.LITTLE"*. To Intel's credit, they had many approaches to dealing with very variable workloads (where sometimes, you need high performance, but much of the time, you really want to save on energy consumption instead) before, such as SpeedStep. Just not this particular one, yet. *) I'm a bit surprised there isn't a patent thing going on, unless either ARM didn't come up with it either, or both Apple and Intel licensed it from ARM. |
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Sneaky Punk
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Intel does use some ARM based technology, so it could very well be licensed. Even if it isn't, given that it is being used on a totally different architecture, I doubt that there would be much grounds to go after them with.
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*AD SPACE FOR SALE*
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cleveland-ish, OH
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Finally got my new work Mac Mini M1 set up today. I was completely shocked how easy it was to transfer my Quickbooks license and file. Excited to use this guy. Set up from a fresh start and just set everything else back up. Should be good for me for the next decade or whatever happens in the meantime.
Die young and save yourself.... @yontsey |
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Mr. Vieira
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
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Awesome. So you’re happy/impressed with the speed and performance?
Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-01-24 at 12:15. |
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*AD SPACE FOR SALE*
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cleveland-ish, OH
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Haven't really had a chance to use it yet. Basically just set everything up and then left the office. I'll definitely report back in about a week or so. Going to wait until next weekend before I clean install my old MBP that I was using. I'm hoping a clean install on my MBP will improve the performance issues I was having. Even though it's 8 years old, it has 16GB RAM and 512 SSD so it should still be a beast. If everything works out, I'm going to replace my current Mac Mini here at my house that I use for a media hub. Have never done a clean install on my MBP since I've had it so that could go a long way.
Die young and save yourself.... @yontsey |
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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My mom had me order an Air for her. I went with the 8x8 core with 16GB RAM, 512GB storage. She wouldn't benefit from a Pro so Air it is. Plus, she really wants the smaller and lighter. Apple says it won't be here until the 24th or something like that. Feels like forever away either way.
Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. |
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Mr. Vieira
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
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Whoa, an entire month backlog. That's pretty unheard-of, huh? But a good sign...they must be selling the hound out of these things.
That's going to be an awesome machine, with the 16GB RAM, along with the bumped graphics and storage. It'll handle anything she'll ever throw at it, I'm sure. I'm trying to get my Mom to consider selling both her current MacBook Air and iMac (which she barely uses anymore...probably a solid 5-to-1 on the Air vs. iMac usage at this point), and get a new M1-based Air (16/256). Both her existing Macs are ~2013, so a solid 7-8 years old. There's no reason for her to have/deal with two Macs. There never was, but it just turned out that way somehow. But a new M1 would run rings about both her current ones, for anything she'd ever think about doing. |
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