User Name
Password
AppleNova Forums » AppleOutsider »

Residential Solar Panels


Register Members List Calendar Search FAQ Posting Guidelines
Residential Solar Panels
Page 4 of 5 Previous 1 2 3 [4] 5  Next Thread Tools
Frank777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2023-06-13, 17:04

Sounds really interesting. The winter test is definitely an important one.

Any thoughts on how resilient the system is? Could it survive an EMP/Carrington event?

I'm not exactly sure how one would test for that. But I'm the kind of nutcase that would want some assurance I could get the system up and running after a serious electrical outage and the Tesla office is swamped with repair requests. The way the world is headed, I'm sure there are several governments who already have computer viruses-at-the-ready to take down batteries and panels should the winds of war blow in the wrong direction.

If I spend this kind of crazy money on home electrical generation, I want some guarantees I'll be able to use it when it's most needed.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2023-06-14, 07:37

I do not have a hardened system per se. What I do have though is the area most of my gear is in with surrounded by concrete on all sides because it is in the basement. So that will help, but the panels are of course exposed.

Since my system is all wired networking, I can just disconnect it from the network and would be able to ensure production without outside control. The Span Panel does have cellular built in, but that is "fixable" too.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2023-07-06, 09:39

I've order two "soft starters" for the AC compressors. They are supposed to reduce the initial spike and general current consumption. I only recently discovered these were even a thing but apparently they are "magic" to reduce the spike and prevent the compressors from tripping generators and batteries.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2023-07-22, 11:49

The install is done and man do they REALLY make a difference. Well, when wired properly that is.

To start off, my inrush on my 4 then 3.5 ton:
121.3 and 113.1


Then after install with 4 ton then 3.5 ton:


Now after learning with 5 starts overnight:


Start up inrush went from 121.3A to 34.5A on the 4 ton conventional condenser. This was a 71% reduction in inrush current!
Start up inrush went from 113.1A to 28.4A on the 3.5 ton heat pump condenser. This was a 75% reduction in inrush current!

Two Powerwalls have a max sustained output of 60A. Peak output is 64A. With these soft starters I shouldn't have any problems going off grid again and the condensers kicking on even with other loads. Maybe not the dryer or oven/stovetop too, but you get the idea.

Install was pretty straight forward. My step bit absolutely sucks and I kind of mangled the bottom of the heat pump electrical box getting the hole in it for the cable clamp. I was able to get the holes drilled and cable clamps on then feed the harness through. I terminated the ends of the harness in the house so I didn't have to fight it outside at the units. I still had to do two crimps out there, for the start winding (butt splice). All my terminals in the electrical box for the condenser had spade terminals so I just connected up with those. I did read that if the run winding has a higher than 18A rating that you should use a ring or fork termination instead of spade, so I did.

Everything was great except I accidentally put the orange wire on the common terminal of the cap instead of the herm terminal. Thankfully the soft starter just gave me an "F" on the install and told me to try again rather than burn up my condenser or something like that.


For right now the soft starters are not permenately mounted because I haven't figured out how exactly I want to do this. I don't like the idea of putting holes in my panel and sticking something in the ground seem overkill. For now I have the 4 ton one wedged above the freon lines and the 3.5 ton one zipped to the freon and power conduit.


If you're curious, this is the correct wiring for both of my units even though they are conventional and heat pump.


Yes, I'm thrilled with the results of these units!

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2023-07-22, 14:24

Our AC unit supposedly came ready for solar power, not sure if that means you could power it from solar independently, or whether it would have to be part of a whole home system. I'm sure we'd need a bunch of panels to run it.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2023-07-22, 18:38

It might mean it is ready to run from DC output of a panel (or string of them). Some of the mini split systems are built with that ready. I'm not sure about full size residential ones though, I'd have to see the specs to know more.

The kind of system I have means everything in the house in "normal" for power connections. My system just provides the voltage and amperage needed to run the loads.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2023-07-22, 19:37

I don't remember the model, I'd have to dig into the manual. I just know it's a higher end Lennox AC unit from 2020. Thankfully electric power is only like 11 cents per kwh here, so unless the price sores I doubt we'll put solar on it anyway.
  quote
Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2023-07-24, 10:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
It might mean it is ready to run from DC output of a panel (or string of them). Some of the mini split systems are built with that ready. I'm not sure about full size residential ones though, I'd have to see the specs to know more.

The kind of system I have means everything in the house in "normal" for power connections. My system just provides the voltage and amperage needed to run the loads.
That's the goal I'm heading towards.

HOWEVEH... I had a coworker a decade ago whose hobby was reducing his home electricity use without impacting his lifestyle. He went so far as to install a low voltage network in his walls, 5V / 12V DC, and bypass the transformers in his home electrical equipment. His AV rack was completely DC, for instance. Ran 20°F cooler in the AV closet, and used 15% less power. He put in high efficiency transformers in several locations, and ran low voltage lines where he needed.

Bonus, was that it was solar ready. He spliced in the battery bank to the DC system, and could run straight battery -> DC devices with no losses from conversion. Last I heard, he was doing the same with his lighting in his home, converting it to 5/12V LEDs.

Hell, he probably has his oven running on DC at this point...
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2023-07-24, 12:39

You know, this building I'm doing for my greenhouse is kinda going that direction. I ordered the wrong bulbs for my kitchen and they will end up being my lighting for my greenhouse. I should have ordered 120VAC LEDs but got 12VDC instead.

Well, my greenhouse is going to be 12VDC with a buck converter for 5VDC circuits too.

I could imagine doing that through the whole house on a new build, but less so on an existing unless it were a single floor ranch with no firebreaks in the walls.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2023-07-27, 18:05

Today became the day I tested my soft starters off grid. Once my PV system got installed my only option with my electric company was to go Solar Time of Use. This means I don't get true 1:1 net metering, I have a minimum electric bill of $30, and to top it off, the electric company can call up to twenty "Critical Peak" pricing periods per year. The heat has made today and tomorrow two of those twenty days.

So at 1800 when the critical peak started I disconnected from the grid to ensure I don't accidentally pull from it at $.26kWh. I left everything running normally in the home, including the climate control. Both condensers have been running off and on since and not once have I noticed the lights flicker let alone drop my electrical system. This really was the answer I was looking for!

Just because, screen caps of the stats:
Grid off:


Batteries charging and consumption showing no condensers running:


One condenser kicked on and is pulling from the batteries:


Consumption showing both systems running:


Stats from the EasyStarts:


The "240V Subpanel (Left)" is the circuit that houses the breakers for the main floor 4 ton system.

I should also add that I did "properly" mount the EasyStarts on the condensers:


Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2023-07-27, 20:22

This is my production for today. We maxed at 15.2kW (inverter capacity):

The peak output is actually 64A. Truth be told it will spike even higher but for a SUPER short period. Milliseconds. One example I saw even tonight was with the basement system running the main floor one kicked on and I registered 11.5kW... my max continuous is 10kW. It leveled out though at 7.6kW:

That screen cap was taken right before the 50% mark and the Panel shed most of my loads. Just before we ended critical peak we lost the bulk of the loads due to shedding by Panel:


The big thing to note here is the Gateway doesn't have a clue how much time we actually have because it assume all loads and calculates remaining charge based on current use. As in, right now. No historical or trends. Panel is able to base remaining charge on trends and knowing it is about to make it hot in here by shedding my climate control and other "Nice to have" circuits.



We are back on the grid and will call this a complete success! I'm so happy with these EasyStarts! Really, I'm impressed.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2023-07-28, 06:25

Did you have ANY electrical experience prior to launching this (absolutely fascinating) project???

...
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2023-07-28, 08:51

Not residential power. I was a weapons guy in the Navy so I learned basic electronics and electricity (BEE) but in my specific system I dealt with 15kVAC and around 600VDC in my RADARs. So I had a good baseline but had to learn so much about residential power. Then add solar on top of that.

Solar is really an area where I don't have to deal with much with my particular system. The panels feed DC to the inverters and they output AC. So everything I deal with is AC at 120/240V with 60Hz (or 66Hz when frequency shifting happens). In other words, normal North American electrical systems.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2023-10-19, 13:25

I wanted to update this because I have some new modification and integrations I'm working with now! Enter Home Assistant and add-on/plug-ins for Tesla Gateway and Span Panel.

I now have the ability to monitor my system completely locally with no cloud needed. Thanks to local APIs on both devices I'm able to tap in and maintain control for things that both wanted the cloud to be used for.

So right now I have my system set to go off-grid every evening at 1758 and return to grid operation at 2102.


Why? Because I can... and because grid sourced power is more expensive during this peak period. I don't want to chance pulling from the grid if I can help it. All my systems run and I don't even notice I'm disconnected from the grid. My mom turned the heat pump on heat now so it is even running during these timeframes without a problem.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2024-01-05, 18:57

I'm still going off grid every weeknight during peak pricing... but I just completed a winter off grid test for a full week. It was eye opening.

We went off grid at our normally scheduled time of 1758 on Thursday night but didn't go back on grid until yesterday at 2102. So 7 days, three hours and 4 minutes off grid during the shortest days of the year in winter.

It got cold in our house. We simply do not have enough storage capacity to let the heat pump run all night let alone all the other loads in the house. We currently have 27kWh of capacity but average around 85kWh throughout a normal winter day. Throw in some cloudy days (which we had several of) and the batteries just don't get topped off and we end up having to shed loads we don't want to... like the electric heat. Thankfully our main floor of the house uses propane for heating so the whole house wasn't cold all the time. We did still have to shed the load for that panel too though overnight so it got into the low 60's inside overnight.

We didn't get to enjoy the game systems or other electronics that weren't battery powered. Heck, I didn't even get to run my computer most of the time because it was a steady burn of electricity when I wasn't actively doing something with it. I almost shutdown components in the network rack but oped against doing that and left them running.

During the winter months we BARELY reach full solar production of 15.7kW from the panels. We hit it for a few minutes at most of full sun/clear days so it isn't like summer where there is a long stretch with major clipping on the solar production.

So this test we figured out some loads we want to rework in the panels they are in and get some other adjustments made. Generally speaking though, we are good other than storage capacity. We would love four more Powerwalls but will likely only go for two more next. Having 81kWh of storage would cover us for a whole day if we had to, but we can get by on 54kWh of storage too with four Powerwalls total.

Once we get six, we would likely disconnect service with our electric company and be completely independent. As it is, I have to pay $71 a month for the privilege of being connected to the grid. $49 of that is simply because the size of my PV array.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
DelilahRojas
BANNED
I am a filthy spammer.
 
Join Date: Jan 2024
 
2024-01-22, 21:30

Storage capacity indeed plays a significant role in off-grid setups, especially when dealing with cloudy days and high energy demands. It's great to see your commitment to optimizing your system and potentially adding more Powerwalls to enhance your storage capacity. With six Powerwalls, you'd be well on your way to complete energy independence.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2024-01-23, 10:04

Thanks!

The most interesting part of my build is that it isn't meant to be off grid. Sure it can go off grid, but it is really geared toward using your grid as your primary battery.

The electric companies and removing incentives for you going solar though. Mine is absurd about it. I mean, I have Time of Use now with no other option. My minimum monthly fee for being grid connected went from $13 to $71 with an absolute minimum monthly bill of $30. This is only achievable if we send 1366.7kWh to the grid in a given month beyond any consumption. Why so much, because we only get $.03/kWh credit for sell rates. That is no matter when we send to the grid.

Our electric company also has a tiered net metering plan that is all in their favor. Using Time of Use, we have three rate periods. Super off peak, off peak and peak (there is a critical peak they can call 20 times a year too, so four periods really. $.26/kWh). If we consume during peak, but only send surplus to the grid during off peak we have to pay for EVERY kWh used during peak. The net metering only applies to the period you contributed to the grid, though they are nice enough to allow it to trickle down.

So if I were to burn 50kWh in peak, net positive 50kWh in off peak but consume 50kWh in super off peak then I'm going to pay $8.5 for the peak, $0 for off peak (because I was positive) and $0 for the super off peak because it used the "credits" from the off peak.

Now, if I were to burn 100kWh in peak, net positive 100kWh in off peak but consume the 50kWh in super off peak then I'm going to pay $17 for peak and be positive 50kWh credit for the off peak and super off peak. If at the end of the month I'm still positive for those periods then the electric company pays me a whopping $.03 per kWh of surplus. $1.50 in credit.

This is the stuff the really annoys the crap out of me. I can't do anything about it either, other than buying more batteries and removing myself from their service completely. The problem there, it is about $8000 per Powerwall. The time it will take for that to cover what my monthly costs with the electric company is just horrible. Something like 405 months of $79 power bills to net positive on the batteries, just the four additional batteries. Never mind the rest of the system that is already in place.

This is where the survivalist/independent mindset overrides the bean counter and we end up buying the batteries anyway so we can live without having to pay the electric company anything. Also, should the apocalypse happen, we would have lights on still!

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
Frank777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2024-01-23, 13:24

But if an apocalypse happens, and your house is the only one lit up like a Christmas tree, your chances of dying increase exponentially.

I only want backup power to my furnace and fridge.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2024-01-23, 13:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
But if an apocalypse happens, and your house is the only one lit up like a Christmas tree, your chances of dying increase exponentially.
This. A few years ago we were without power for 48 hours and some people in the neighborhood were starting to loose their minds and that was in August when we had great weather. I can only imagine what it would be like in a natural disaster with longer term power outages.
  quote
kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2024-01-23, 15:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
This. A few years ago we were without power for 48 hours and some people in the neighborhood were starting to loose their minds and that was in August when we had great weather. I can only imagine what it would be like in a natural disaster with longer term power outages.
We'll start with the LDS people. They always have food in the basement.

And then the people with lights on. They have generators or solar.

Contrary to popular belief, the zombies love canned goods and electricity.

I'vs said this before and I'll say it again: When the lights go out I would rather live in the heart of Africa than a western country. We're spoiled, and they're used to not having power or clean water. Life here will be an absolute apocalypse after one week with no power.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2024-01-23, 15:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
We'll start with the LDS people. They always have food in the basement.
Such a Utah thing to say. Better off looking for hoarders, they tend to have extra freezers full of food and tons of canned goods.

Quote:
And then the people with lights on. They have generators or solar.
Generators aren't useful for long, no power means no running gas pumps. After a day or two the gas is gone and you're in the same boat as before. Solar is a good target, if you are well armed, but as we all know, there is always a big fish.
  quote
kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2024-01-23, 16:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Such a Utah thing to say. Better off looking for hoarders, they tend to have extra freezers full of food and tons of canned goods.
I'm from Idaho, and the LDS population percentage is higher here than in Utah. I know many with fat canned goods racks.

And, yes, we have lots of hoarders, too. We'll be looking for the plump folk that stand out amongst a see of bone-thin, starving zombies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Generators aren't useful for long, no power means no running gas pumps. After a day or two the gas is gone and you're in the same boat as before. Solar is a good target, if you are well armed, but as we all know, there is always a big fish.
Hoarders have always got some gas laying around. And, this is Idaho. I think the average number of guns per zombie-killer will be around 83!

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2024-01-23, 16:05

I'm not discussing my state of being armed, I'll just say I'm prepared in more than one way. I'm also off the beaten path. Not complete sticks, but I can see it from here.

While I get that homes like mine would stand out with panels on the roof, but if we were in a true apocalypse situation I can assure you we would minimize lighting up the night. Conserving electricity if nothing else because batteries only go so far. Can I defend from everything, no. I can make sure I do my best though.

edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
...

I only want backup power to my furnace and fridge.
Don't forget the ability to distill water covertly.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2024-01-23, 16:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
Don't forget the ability to distill water covertly.
And don't forget the portable batteries. You'll need those to throw at the zombie hunters once they get through your front door.
  quote
drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2024-01-23, 20:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
Thanks!
Why are you thanking a bot??!!

...
  quote
Frank777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2024-01-23, 20:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
Don't forget the ability to distill water covertly.
Nah, I'll be fine. My fridge has a built-in water dispenser.



  quote
DelilahRojas
BANNED
I am a filthy spammer.
 
Join Date: Jan 2024
 
2024-01-24, 03:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by DelilahRojas View Post
Storage capacity indeed plays a significant role in off-grid setups, especially when dealing with cloudy days and high energy demands. It's great to see your commitment to optimizing your system and potentially adding more Powerwalls to enhance your storage capacity. With six Powerwalls, you'd be well on your way to complete energy independence.
Being connected to the grid can have its costs, as you mentioned, but the goal of achieving energy self-sufficiency is an admirable one. If you ever decide to explore more options for solar panels or related services, you can check out solar panels dublin. They might have valuable insights to help you fine-tune your off-grid setup.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2024-01-24, 10:02

A bot dumb enough to quote itself, how novel.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2024-01-24, 11:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
Why are you thanking a bot??!!

...
More than anything, it brought the points up in conversation and I figured I would share them with y'all. It wasn't for the bot I can assure you.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2024-01-24, 12:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
A bot dumb enough to quote itself, how novel.
Yeah, that's pretty funny.

Gotta give 'em credit for originality!
  quote
Posting Rules Navigation
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Page 4 of 5 Previous 1 2 3 [4] 5  Next

Post Reply

Forum Jump
Thread Tools
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Residential landline - WiFi gateway Bill M General Discussion 6 2009-10-06 09:51
Resizing panels in InDesign CS3 Is it 1981? Genius Bar 3 2008-04-29 07:28
Where to find replacement LCD Panels? Doramius Apple Products 2 2008-03-28 19:00
Solar eclipse today Luca AppleOutsider 4 2005-04-08 18:40
borders behind panels in forum screens billybobsky Feedback 0 2004-05-16 20:10


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:27.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2024, AppleNova