User Name
Password
AppleNova Forums » Speculation and Rumors »

Intel and Macs: Integrated Graphics


Register Members List Calendar Search FAQ Posting Guidelines
Intel and Macs: Integrated Graphics
Thread Tools
ASZ993
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2005-06-06, 23:31

Now that Apple has decided to go Intel, do you think that Intel could use its chipsets with integrated graphics on a future Mac? Or, will Apple stick to its tradition of using dedicated GPUs?
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2005-06-06, 23:33

This is a silly idea. Why would it?

Apple used "integrated graphics" on the motherboard years ago before swapping video cards was as common with the general public. I see absolutely no good reason to revert back to that practice.

The only benefit to doing this is cutting costs and if that was so important, Apple would have done this already.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
morningstarrising
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
 
2005-06-06, 23:35

Huh, you know what? I miss the Powerbook G5 topics already....
  quote
ASZ993
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2005-06-06, 23:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
This is a silly idea. Why would it?

Apple used "integrated graphics" on the motherboard years ago before swapping video cards was as common with the general public. I see absolutely no good reason to revert back to that practice.

The only benefit to doing this is cutting costs and if that was so important, Apple would have done this already.
I'm talking about something similar to Intel Extreme Graphics and GMA 9xx used in low-end PC's, and that steal main system RAM. Now that Intel is on Apple's side, Intel could implement it in some way to use some form of the GMA to create a low-end, low-power solution for Core Image/Core Video and possibly H.264.

However, I'm sure Apple doesn't want that.
  quote
rasmits
rams it
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Seattle
 
2005-06-06, 23:45

Yeah, then they can hook all their USB drives to an internal hub and call themselves Dell.
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2005-06-06, 23:48

Again, why bother?

What exactly does Apple or the user gain by doing that? Isn't RAM already at a premium? If the high-level rendering functions required for things like CI are so easily implemented in "integrated graphics", why would PC users bother with dedicated GPUs in the first place?

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
CobaltFire
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Send a message via AIM to CobaltFire  
2005-06-06, 23:57

I hate to say this, but the vast majority of Apple's lineup uses integrated graphics. The PowerMac is the only machine that does not use it, and we all know what kind of a percentage that makes up. On that note, ATi has new IGP's coming down the pipe for the intel chipsets, and as seperate fare for other chipsets. That seems to line up well with Apple's announcements, so we may be seeing X700's as our integrated graphics at a later point. As for using intel's IGP, that is just stupid, as even the Radeon 9200 outperforms it easily.

Before you slam me and say that "Apple uses dedicated Graphics chips for their onboard though" realize that ATi has been shipping boards with X300 chips on them for about 6 months now, and that is a dedicated graphics processor. I am not saying that Apple would use intel's IGP, as that is a peice of work, and Aqua alone would give it a heart attack. Just realize that the majority of Apple's lineup will remain low power/low heat chips that are suitable for integration into logic boards. As such, don't expect to see huge jumps, but you will get small ones since no independant development will have to be done.

Another interesting thing: Is Apple going to keep it's unified graphics driver architecture after this move? I can see it going either way, but anyone else have anything to weigh in on this?

15.4" PowerBook G4 1.25GHz/512MB (Radeon 9600/64MB)
Keep our troops overseas in your hearts and minds - it means more to them than you can imagine.
I would rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not.
  quote
ASZ993
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2005-06-07, 00:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
Again, why bother?

What exactly does Apple or the user gain by doing that? Isn't RAM already at a premium? If the high-level rendering functions required for things like CI are so easily implemented in "integrated graphics", why would PC users bother with dedicated GPUs in the first place?
Most PC users actually have integrated graphics. Just look at Intel's marketshare in the graphics world.

Brad, you are right. Apple gains nothing, neither does Intel.
  quote
Luca
ಠ_ರೃ
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2005-06-07, 03:35

Why would using an Intel processor signify the use of "Intel Extreme" graphics? That's completely backwards thinking especially since a lot of people who have Intel-powered computers don't have an Intel graphics chip (think anyone who paid more than $600 for their machine or built it themselves).

Apple does indeed use built-in graphics on most of their computers. They're built in and not removable. But at least they use dedicated VRAM. Using Intel processors won't change any of that. The real problem is the use of shared video memory. Stick the GPU on a removable card or put it right on the motherboard... it doesn't really matter, unless the GPU uses system RAM as a frame buffer. Then you start running into problems. Apple already doesn't ship nearly enough RAM on their systems, so having the GPU steal 64-128 MB of it would be terrible.

I have heard that PCI Express actually has enough bandwidth now that you can use shared video memory without a major performance hit. It can dynamically adjust how much system RAM it uses for a frame buffer, so you don't run out of system RAM. Only PCI-E has the bandwidth for this. Even so, I doubt Apple will ever use shared VRAM. Last time they did was with the compact, 9" monochrome Macs (SE, Plus, Classic, etc). Even the old, super cheap LCs used dedicated VRAM.
  quote
BenRoethig
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dubuque, IA
 
2005-06-07, 08:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobaltFire
I hate to say this, but the vast majority of Apple's lineup uses integrated graphics
Apple puts a dedicated video card on the motherboard, it does not use integrated graphics. Integrated graphics are a ultra low end chipset on the motherboard that shares system RAM. Apple uses regular chipsets with their own RAM connnected through the AGP bus.
  quote
Electric Monk
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
 
2005-06-07, 11:22

He means integrated graphics as in there is no card to pull out and replace. In that sense everything but PowerMacs have integrated graphics.
  quote
curiousuburb
Antimatter Man
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
 
2005-06-07, 12:37

Integrated Graphics to Ma and Pa Clueless might mean that iMac screen is attached to the 'puter.

Luca and Ben are correct to be specific about language.

Integrated Graphics in the Wintel world usually means "no dedicated VRAM/GPU. shared RAM"

Dedicated/Onboard Graphics sometimes means "dedicated GPU. shared RAM unless explicitly listed".

Fully upgradeable graphics cards solutions usually mention slot specs as much as GPU/VRAM. (Towers)
The Cube had an AGP slot, but couldn't take a full sized card of some types.

And I'm not aware of any laptop with user-upgradeable primary GPU.

There are some PCMCIA/cardbus GPU solutions for multiple monitor support, but almost all laptops are committed to their factory GPU and VRAM config.

Forgive the nitpicking... but if you're asking whether we'll ditch GPU and dedicated VRAM for the low-end meaning of Integrated Graphics, all to save $40 more on a mini, I would say resoundingly NO.

It flies in the face of the Core I/D/V developments which work to offload tasks from CPU to GPU specifically to improve snappiness™ of user interface, redraw, etc. (Which the 1st generation mini doesn't even take full advantage of anyway, but heftier hardware does.)

I'd bet that Towers will remain the only machines with truly user-upgradeable graphics for a while.

Last edited by curiousuburb : 2005-06-07 at 12:42.
  quote
CobaltFire
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Send a message via AIM to CobaltFire  
2005-06-07, 13:04

Ben, read the post again, I said exactly what you did. Sorry for not mentioning the RAM issue, I forgot about that. As for the shared RAM through PCIe, you take a 30-40% performance hit for it, which is still pretty good. I honestly don't think Apple would move to a shared memory architecture, either.

15.4" PowerBook G4 1.25GHz/512MB (Radeon 9600/64MB)
Keep our troops overseas in your hearts and minds - it means more to them than you can imagine.
I would rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not.
  quote
JayReding
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
 
2005-06-07, 13:06

Actually, I do believe that some ATI Radeon Mobility cards were user-upgradable, although that trend didn't seem to carry on for long.
  quote
CobaltFire
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Send a message via AIM to CobaltFire  
2005-06-07, 13:12

They were, yes, but I don't remember which laptops had them, and I have no idea where you would get the upgrade.
  quote
Powerdoc
Cat's Dreamlands
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2005-06-07, 13:13

Integrated Intel graphics chips sucks.
I truly expect that Apple will not choose this lame way.
  quote
Trumpetman
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Galt's Gulch
Send a message via AIM to Trumpetman  
2005-06-08, 07:22

From the Powerpage...

Quote:
Apple on Intel: Take a deep breath, let it out – Wow ! ^_^ ! a sneak peek into the wild wild, wooly ride that Steve Job's has held Apple back from for years. At WWDC 2005 Apple has unleashed to developers their next WOMD (Weapon of Mass Domination) machines with OS X running on the outside, but Intel on the Inside! - Oversized cases with mini-motherboards, onboard (Intel) GMA 900 graphics chips, DVI risers and a phat PCIe bus to boot. But developers are humming about way more than just the hardware - Steve Job's genius travels far back into the past when he imagined a byte code tapestry that could be woven to run on any chip architecture.
Powerpage

Nick
  quote
ghoti
owner for sale by house
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Charlotte, NC
 
2005-06-08, 07:30

The developer machines are probably just run-of-the-mill Intel boards with some custom BIOS or something. They aren't supposed to be used by anybody but the developers. Plus, they probably couldn't get drivers from ATI or NVidia for MacOS/x86 without risking leaks right and left. So I don't think we can expect the developer boxes to tell us anything about the future Intel Macs.
  quote
chucker
‽
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2005-06-08, 11:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by curiousuburb
And I'm not aware of any laptop with user-upgradeable primary GPU.
AlienWare had laptops last year that let you replace the GPU through a daughter board, but that doesn't seem possible any more.
  quote
Luca
ಠ_ರೃ
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2005-06-08, 11:12

Besides, that gets rid of the cost-effectiveness of desktop video card upgrades. Video card daughterboards are really expensive to make and they're not an industry standard part the way an AGP or PCI-E video card is, so they tend to be really expensive for what you get. I know that some old Dell notebooks also had the ability to upgrade from a GeForce 2MX to a GeForce 4MX, but the upgrade was expensive, unsupported, and not worthwhile.
  quote
ASZ993
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2005-06-08, 18:51

New development: The dev machine has integrated graphics (a GMA900):
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com and has details on the dev machine on the front page.

The GMA900 supports Quartz Extreme and Core Image, but the performance is disappointing.

Conclusion: Continue to expect dedicated graphics chips w/ dedicated VRAM.
  quote
Jay
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
 
2005-06-08, 20:54

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASZ993
New development: The dev machine has integrated graphics (a GMA900):
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com and has details on the dev machine on the front page.

The GMA900 supports Quartz Extreme and Core Image, but the performance is disappointing.

Conclusion: Continue to expect dedicated graphics chips w/ dedicated VRAM.
The article also said that they can used regular PC video cards assuming one can find a working driver.
  quote
chucker
‽
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2005-06-08, 22:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
The article also said that they can used regular PC video cards assuming one can find a working driver.
Pretty silly, isn't it? How would you be able to find a working driver of a graphics card for an operating system running on an architecture where it isn't yet officially supported? :P
  quote
ghoti
owner for sale by house
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Charlotte, NC
 
2005-06-09, 01:43

It's the speculation forum . And who knows, perhaps people will port Linux drivers for unsupported graphics cards.
  quote
Posting Rules Navigation
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Post Reply

Forum Jump
Thread Tools
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WSJ: Apple has held talks with Intel acrockett149 Speculation and Rumors 82 2005-05-26 16:35
Wait a second, did I read that right? OSX for Intel? And other musings. HOM Speculation and Rumors 96 2005-05-26 16:35
Good bye IBM...Welcome Intel??? alexluft Speculation and Rumors 32 2005-05-02 20:14


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:31.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2024, AppleNova