[PB PM]

I suspect the recent events in Japan have pushed back any product releases for a while. There was also talk of Nikon starting production of the D3000 again, so they could have a camera at a lower price point, but that also hasn't happened or been announced.

Sony, I mean "Zeiss" glass for the Alpha line is a bit of a joke. Zeiss may have designed them, but it is still Sony glass made in Japan, not Germany. Note that none of the real Zeiss glass is made for Sony mounts?

Sony is an electronics maker, any there target market is consumers, not real photographers. Their cameras show it in the design and control layout. They may have boring, and IMO, inferior technology like sensor based anti-shake, and some tiny mirrorless cameras which most pro photographers shun due to poor controls, but they just aren't that interesting when you really take some time to use them. I played with an NEX at Best Buy, wasn't impressed at all.

[Matsu]

The first NEX cameras follow a very Japanese consumer electronics design aesthetic, but the technologies they're using have a great deal of promise. When they decide utilize traditional camera ergos they can. Look at the full frame A900 and A850 bodies. Very nice.

The NEX is almost too small in the grip, height and depth, but it's been paired back (IMHO) less in an effort to make it unobtrusive and more so to highlight the "mirrorlessness" of it.

If a system like NEX comes along and gives us nothing more than a handful of fast AF primes and a large sensor on a fast operating camera. I'm sold.

If I were building it, I would start with a 35mm equivalent f/1.4 prime. This FOV gives about the same width in the frame as distance to the subject. I didn't know why I was getting so many good shots at this equivalent focal length until I stumbled on this tidbit, and it's opened up a world of shooting opportunities for me. It turns out that with the camera at 35mm (23-24 on DX) I was always standing in the right place, but with that little heuristic in mind, I got lots of angles in my head for 24, 28 and 50mm. A 28 gives about 1/4 more width, a 24, about a 1/2; a 50, about a 1/4 less width, etc Though its probably impractical to think of lengths past 70-75, which give about 1/2 the width in the frame as distance to the subject. But it's also useful if you're zooming with your feet. A big step back while zooming from 35-50 produces the same framing while changing the perspective.

It's not at all stuff you don't already know and experience just by looking through the viewfinder anyway, but I find it incredibly useful for anticipating shots, just to keep that in mind - using 35 (or it's equivalent) as a reference.

What does this have to do with something like NEX? Maybe nothing, except that it points in the right direction of a modern street camera, if they'd only get the right handful of lenses: a 24, 28, 35, and 50, all f/2 or faster.

I'm talking about a modern spiritual successor to a rangefinder, but not necessarily its physical shape or limitations. Something with autofocus, small, discrete, top quality lenses, and an EVF*

The market might be limited, but that's OK, because a modern EVF ILC can co-exist in an ecosystem with hybrid video zooms and consumer lenses for things like the NEX3/5

*of particular interest is the EVF. Once we can free ourselves from having to lift the camera to our eyes, we've got a whole other world of perspectives to explore in candid photography, not just tripod mounted static subject shots. Even just subtle stuff, waist level candids snapped on the go.

[PB PM]

I've shot with plenty of pont and shoots over the years, never really saw live view as being good. Most of the time I turned off the screen and used the crummy, unaligned optical finders. On my P7000 I use the LCD, but I'd still rather use an optical finder. I guess I'm just too old fashion and set in my ways as an SLR shooter?

For street shooter I can understand the desire to be more discreet when taking photos of strangers/unwilling victims.

[Matsu]

Yeah, I had a couple of cameras with zooming optical finders that were really badly aligned, especially zoomed in, not simple parallax, but a completely different framing level of bad.

You know, a small DSLR with small APSC primes could also fit the mission described above without much need for technological re-invention. Imagine a D40 sized machine with a series of DX 1.4 and 1.8 primes. But there just aren't any fast wide DX primes available. We would need a 23 or 24mm, an 18mm, and a 16mm. All we have is 30mm sigma and a 35mm Nikon. This would be a pretty affordable kit if the difference between Nikon's 35mm 1.4FX and 1.8DX are anything to go by.

Alternatively, a more affordable set of f/2 FX primes would also get the job done, though there isn't really a compact FX camera to go with them.

In a completely different vein, I've been look for a good cheap tripod, but don't really know where to start. What do you folks use/like? Don't laugh, but I'm thinking of getting a gorilla-pod, it seems like a really handy item to have around, and actually pretty strong.

[PB PM]

My cheap tripod is the Joby SLR zoom, small and flexible. It can even handle the likes of the D700, as long as the lens isn't too heavy.

[Dorian Gray]

Originally Posted by Matsu I've been look for a good cheap tripod...

It's a cliché of course, but I don't think a good and cheap tripod exists. Tripods are good when they're well engineered: tough, light, and smooth in operation. That kind of old-fashioned engineering is never cheap, and least of all in 2011.

In fact, my fear that the D700 successor will have compromised mechanical quality was one reason I ended up taking this home today:



Another reason is that D700 prices have gone a bit crazy in France following the events in Sendai, and I panicked a bit. I'm soon going to be jobless, and my plan after that requires a full-frame camera. Terrible timing, but I can't do much about that. I did find a shop with old prices (slightly high for two weeks ago, but lower than the new prices at the big e-commerce outfits). Bought their last D700.

Hope I can make those fat pixels sing!

[Robo]

Originally Posted by PB PM I suspect the recent events in Japan have pushed back any product releases for a while. There was also talk of Nikon starting production of the D3000 again, so they could have a camera at a lower price point, but that also hasn't happened or been announced. Sony, I mean "Zeiss" glass for the Alpha line is a bit of a joke. Zeiss may have designed them, but it is still Sony glass made in Japan, not Germany. Note that none of the real Zeiss glass is made for Sony mounts? Sony is an electronics maker, any there target market is consumers, not real photographers. Their cameras show it in the design and control layout. They may have boring, and IMO, inferior technology like sensor based anti-shake, and some tiny mirrorless cameras which most pro photographers shun due to poor controls, but they just aren't that interesting when you really take some time to use them. I played with an NEX at Best Buy, wasn't impressed at all.

One of my friends is a real enough photographer to get a free NEX from Sony, and she thought it was okay. The controls take some getting used to, but she likes the size. She lent it to me for a while, because she wanted a layman's opinion, and I really liked it. But I'm not a real photographer, I only take pictures.

I wouldn't expect pro photographers to "get" the NEX, for the same reason I wouldn't expect your stereotypical IT neckbeard to "get" the iPad. ("It's smaller, but it's not like that matters!") That doesn't mean that some fake photographers aren't going to find cameras like the NEX great for their needs.

I think the consumer camera market is undergoing a seismic shift (too soon?). Cameraphones are reaching the point where they're "good enough" for most people. A lot of my friends don't even have "actual" cameras. I know, because they ask to borrow mine whenever they go on a vacation. But now, some of them are like, y'know, I'll just bring my iPhone. Sure, we know that most phone cameras are absolute garbage but for most people they're "good enough," a la Flip Video. So all those people aren't bothering to buy cameras any more. Compare the number of consumer cameras Canon has introduced this year, compared to years previous. And all the camera manufacturers aren't exactly keen on losing that huge market, so they're increasingly going to try to go after prosumers/smug consumers and sell them on things that cameraphones can't match, like interchangeable lenses. But there's just not that many people who are keen on carting around a big DSLR kit, hence the totally-coincidental introduction of the heavily-marketed NEX and EP1.

Unsolicited prediction: At CES 2012, at least one of the camera manufacturers will introduce, amid much fanfare, an imaging-focused Android smartphone to combat their sliding consumer camera sales, a la Garmin's nuvifone. It probably won't be very effective (especially if it's Kodak).

[Dorian Gray]

I can't agree with PB PM on Zeiss ZA (for Sony) lenses. Where a lens is made is less important than how it's made, and since Sony inherited an impressive lens-making tradition from Minolta, there's reason to believe the ZA lenses are made with great care and pride.

In any case the proof is in the pudding, and some of the ZA lenses are optically the best in their class (e.g. 135 mm f/1.8) or toe to toe with the best (e.g. 24-70 mm f/2.8).

I admit that calling these lenses "Zeiss" is diluting the brand to meaninglessness, but that's par for the course in just about any industry these days. They're good lenses regardless, albeit pricey and somewhat old-fashioned in some respects (screwdriver focus mechanisms, lack of moisture sealing, etc.).

The Sony NEX cameras were an injection of new thinking into a sleepwalking industry, and many keen photographers have been pleased with these cameras — in addition to hoards of point-and-shoot upgraders, particularly in Japan and the UK. Even DPReview improved their rating of these cameras following the firmware update that revamped the whole user interface.

And because the NEX cameras have by far the best sensors of any of the mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras (the Samsungs are very noisy, while Olympus and Panasonic use significantly smaller sensors), they're very popular with the so-called "alt" crowd — photographers who use weird and wonderful old lenses on modern digital cameras.

[Robo]

I know that when I upgrade my point-and-shoot I'll be looking for something like the NEX. Unless Canon makes some super badass interchangeable-lens ELPH or something. Then I'll be torn.

Screw it. First one to make it in orange gets my $800. GO GO GO

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray I admit that calling these lenses "Zeiss" is diluting the brand to meaninglessness, but that's par for the course in just about any industry these days.

This was what I meant by calling Sony lenses Zeiss, not that there is anything wrong with them optically.

As for the NEX, I'm sure they are fine for some people, in fact more than good enough for most. Keep in mind I have an inherent dislike for anything made by Sony, regardless of what it is, because I just don't like the company as a whole.

[Matsu]

I actually don't care if a tripod is a little on the heavy side. I'm not going to trek around with it, and I have a bit of time to look around for older models. It's just not an area that I've paid much attention to in the past, but it is required equipment for some classes.

Dorian's 45P again shows that a DSLR can be more discrete. Yes, it's a relatively slow manual focus pancake normal, but it's fast enough for street shooting. I'm pretty sure that recasting a complimentary line to the FX 1.4 primes - either APSC f/1.4s or FX f/2's - would make them small enough in modern AFS versions.

What's missing are:

1.) the aforementioned f/2 FX or f/1.4 DX primes
2.) a small high spec FX body
3.) (arguably) a small high specification DX body. D7000 is OK, but could be a tad trimmer for a DX stealth machine.

Consumer and pro zoom sets are complete from 14 to 200 mm, more or less.

[PB PM]

Your best (fast) option for small on FX is a 50mm pancake lens, like the 50mm F1.8 AI-S or 50mm Series E. Either of those lenses is sharper than the 50mm F1.8D, and they are even cheaper, if you get one from a garage sale, or just happen to have one lying around from an old 1980's film camera.



I would love it if Nikon made an FX body the size of the FM/FE, that would be delightful for casual shooting. Not to mention that half the public would think you were some old hick shooting film.

[Matsu]

I have a 50mm AIS 1.8. It's very sharp, when I've focused it properly, but that's not always the case on the D300, or more specifically, with me operating it. You've indicated that it's a lot easier on the D700, which is promising. I also have a 28mm, but the aperture is stuck. I wonder if I should get it fixed? Not sure what these are worth though...

[PB PM]

Easier than the D300, but I wouldn't want to use it for any kind of action shooting.

[PB PM]

Ziess announced today that they are going to release their CP.2 lenses for Sony E mount, no word on Alpha mount.

I've also finished off my lens purchases for the year, I think. I'm renting a 70-200mm VR, so I'll get to play with that for a week in April. If I like it, I'll add that next year.

Current FX setup (new lenses since going FX are in italics)
Nikon 20-35mm F2.8D (much smaller an lighter than current wide angle Nikon zooms, with less distortion)
Nikon 28-105mm F3.5-4.5D (nice walk around lens, not super fast, but not slow and it has semi macro mode from 50-105mm)
Nikon AF 50mm F1.8D (small and cheap, not much else to say)
Nikon AF-S Micro Nikkor 60mm F2.8G ED (One Word, SHARP!)
Nikon AF-S 300mm F4D IF-ED (Great lens)

[Robo]

Pentax mirror less camera system leaked

My current shooter is a Pentax Optio H90, purchased after someone broke my trusty ELPH. I got it because it was small and cheap and because it was in the Details gift guide so I figured it couldn't be horrible. Plus, it's grey and orange, which is like my kryptonite (and did I mention it was cheap?). It's my first exposure (heh) to Pentax cameras, or Pentax anything, really, besides reading about the weird colors their DSLRs come in back in Japan. I think it's okay, but I'm not as picky as any of you. If their mirrorless system is the smallest on the market, that'll be interesting, but I'm not sure I trust them enough to buy anything from them that wasn't cheap. Thoughts?

[PB PM]

Pentax is a decent brand, they aren't the Dell or Gateway of thr camera world, and if they come out with a decent mirrorless camera it would be worth considering. That is if Canon or Nikon's offering is a no show or a real let down.

[Dorian Gray]

The Pentax Optio H90 looks nice, but I doubt it performs very well (I could be wrong, of course). I imagine it's a significant downgrade from a nice ELPH — though it must be said that today's ELPHs neither look as good as they did, nor perform as well as they did, relative to the competition.

Pentax is an odd brand that I don't quite understand. Of course it's a storied name that evokes notions of desirable things like Super-Takumar lenses. But today's Pentax bears little resemblance to that Pentax, having been bought out by Hoya and turned into a low-cost producer of cameras and lenses. They still make a few high-end products, like the K-5 with its remarkable Sony sensor, and the "Limited" series of prime lenses (with unlimited production).

The rumoured NC-1 is very small indeed if Robo's linked photo is believed. Using its ISO 518:2006 hot shoe of known size as a scale, I've compared it to the Panasonic Lumix LX5, a small camera with a fast lens:



Unfortunately the NC-1 seems to have a very small sensor: the same size as most compact cameras (and smaller than my LX5). Compared to the large sensors in the Micro Four Thirds cameras or Sony's NEX, this is a tiny sensor. It will suffer from lots of noise and offer little control over depth of field. And Pentax probably won't allow the camera to output raw files (since they'd look so dreadful the user would be terrified). JPEG only.

Considering these points, we must assume this camera is aimed more at people who like a good gimmick than "photographers".

[PB PM]

The rumors that point to an APS-C sized sensor in a later model is far more interesting than that one. In any case I'd wait for Nikon or Canon to develop a mirrorless camera in any case. Pentax does make some nice cameras, but I'm not sure how much longer they'll be around. Of course people have been saying the same thing about Pentax and Olympus for the last 15 years, so they might be around for many years to come.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray The Pentax Optio H90 looks nice, but I doubt it performs very well (I could be wrong, of course). I imagine it's a significant downgrade from a nice ELPH

I preferred my ELPH, of course. But I got the I Broke Your Shit Text Message on, like, December 23, and I wanted something in time for Christmas, which meant buying something in town. It's been okay, as like a stop-gap, but I am already talking about wanting something nicer...

It's been like going from Jack Purcells to Chuck Taylors. All the pieces are there, but it's just not the same.

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray though it must be said that today's ELPHs neither look as good as they did, nor perform as well as they did, relative to the competition.

The cheapification of ELPH makes me a sad panda. I remember paying like $400 for my first ELPH and it was like Holy Shit, How Did They Do This and now they're like $200 and today's ELPHs are actually larger because they decided to make them bulbous and aerodynamic for some reason. I remained loyal, but I started shooting furtive glances to the other cameras at the bar... That's why I mentioned that I'd be insta-sold if Canon decided to make a tiny ELPH-branded NEX competitor. It would be like an ELPH that was awesome and relevant again.

[PB PM]

I think the modern version of the old ELHP is the S95, but I could be wrong.

[PB PM]

Looks like the Nikon D5100 is out (although not officially). Same sensor as the D7000, but it lacks an AF motor and has a flippy screen like the D5000 before it. Totally different control layout, due to the design of the flip out screen, looks like a bit of a mess. Basicly looks like Nikon designed this camera for video shooters, not still photographers.

Nikon also released a dedicated mic for it's video recording cameras (D3s, D300s, D7000, D5100, and P7000).

http://nikonrumors.com/2011/04/04/ca...spx#more-19058

[Matsu]

5100 may not be a good working pro choice, but the body shape is compact and generally regarded as comfortable to hold. This is not a bad concept for a camera actually. What's missing are the lenses, and maybe a bigger viewfinder bump for better magnification in the viewfinder, or a hybrid viewfinder.

The 35mm f/1.8 is a start, but it needs a whole range of DX primes, preferably f/1.4, These could all cost under 700 (in DX guise) and make for relatively small street cameras. Start with DX equivalents for 35mm FX and work down. 24mm DX, 18mm DX, 16mm DX and 13 or 14mm DX. Nothing longer that 50 is needed, since FX lenses stand in acceptable well here.

A fast live view mode and a relatively light camera/lens combination would make for a great camera for furtive street shooting. Especially something with a detachable eye-piece...

Nikon and Canon both recently poo-pooed mirrorless cameras: Nikon specifically suggesting that DSLR buyers don't want smaller cameras, so there's little to no advantage for non-DSLR designs. I think this really just represents both companies protecting established and profitable systems until the relevant technologies improve to the point that they can replace the mirror and/or pentaprism. They then have to determine whether to continue with existing mounts, modify them into a hybrid form, or redesign completely. Tricky stuff to judge. Sony is, again, putting toes in every pond. They have DSLR, SLT (EVF), and mirrorless (EVF) models, and seem committed to dropping the OVF completely.

Like many, I'm not so sure you need radical departures to make acceptably discrete cameras. If you compare a D3 to a D40, clearly there's a huge difference in size possible between the largest and smallest DSLRs. The largest being somewhere between too big and just right for their intended use, and the smallest clearly being small enough to use discretely. Except, that we lack the lenses (small fast primes) for that type of use... It's here that some of those hybrid technologies, like fast live view, and detachable finders could be very useful paired to a small fast prime and a light body.

But there's also a line where it might just be better to redesign the thing completely, rather than modify and evolve (obviously a tricky task for any camera vendor)

If the mount throat is wide enough, perhaps only Canon fits this description, I could see a future mirror-less hybrid that mounts DSLR/SLT lenses as well as lenses that recede into the camera body (like optically less complex pancakes?) for a compact profile: a sort of virtual flange. Leica's M has a 27.8mm flange, so modifying either of Canon or Nikon's DSLR mounts into mirrorless full frame designs with the same lens size advantages would mean creating a group of lenses that recede about 16-18mm into the mount. Doable, I think...

If we look at Nikon and Canon's existing mounts, we see:

Nikon - 46.5mm flange; 44mm throat.
Canon - 44mm flange; 54mm throat.

Plenty of room for fast lenses to recede into a "mirror-less" box, certainly for APSC and APSH, perhaps not for 35mm/FX. But there's perhaps little reason to design a camera this way - some customers potentially damaging their equipment by mounting the wrong camera-lens combinations... Sony/Minolta splits the difference, 49.7mm throat, but they nonetheless decided it was better to make a completely new mount for a purely EVF camera, while evolving the SLR into an EVF backed pellicle mirror design their SLT-EVF. They also reduced the flange even further on NEX, more or less creating an APSC mount with Leica M mount geometry, and similar corner issues...

I worry just a tad that the f-mount may have the greatest (potential) risk of obsolesense over the next decade, we'll see in time I guess.

[PB PM]

I agree about size, these little DSLRs (D3100/D5100 + Rebel series) are very nice in that regard. I was going to sell my D3100 after getting the D700, but quickly realized how nice it was to have a small camera for some tasks. That said, if I was going to only shoot with one of those small DSLRs, I'd pick a Rebel, simply because they have more external controls, which makes them better cameras from a traditional standpoint. Not that the Nikon small DSLRs are bad, but if you are starting from scratch and have no plans to move up (photography isn't a big thing for you) then the Rebels look like a better choice.

[Matsu]

The limited direct interface of the smaller cameras can be an inconvenience, but I think it's the viewfinder that really holds them back in comparison. This is where an EVF hybrid solution could really shine. The Alpha SLT viewfinders are bigger than anything in the budget DSLR space, and brighter in dim light too. Of course they probably wash out in bright light high contrast areas and/or take a moment to adjust, but as these improve, you can have a lot of benefits, like zebra patterns and detachable finders for instance...

Just a quick comparison of the "mirrorless" formats, which really ought to simply be called EVF cameras, since there are no other naming conventions that describe cameras by what they don't have. And, not EVIL either, since there are no naming conventions that describe cameras by their modularity. We have view cameras, TLR, SLR, DSLR, RF, RF-D and EVF. Related to SLR, we have pellicle mirror models now referred to as SLT, modern ones use an EVF, but there were also OVF models, so I guess we can add SLT-OVF and SLT EVF. EVIL and mirror-less are juvenile and/or cumbersome designations.
a
Anyway, just a quick not comparing Leica's M and Sony's NEX. Leica's M has a flange distance about 2/3rds the image circle diameter, a little less. 27.8/44. Sony's NEX has a flange of only 18mm, and an image circle of about 28mm. So, a similar ratio, basically scaled down Leica M proportions. If Sony ever made a full frame NEX, it would have a rather extreme ratio, almost 1/3rd the image circle diameter. I imagine they could design around any problems by placing the rear elements into different positions regardless of the flange distance, but it might invite more complexity...

Most DSLR's have about a 1:1 ratio between the flange and the image circle. Interestingly, even though micro 4/3rds is a mirrorless design, the flange distance is almost 1:1 with the image circle diameter, so angles of incedence more or less similar to classic DSLR designs.

Back to NEX, to make lenses proportionally as small Leica, they would probably have to offset the sensor micro-lenses somehow...

[PB PM]

Viewfinders on the small DSLRs are an issue, and to be honest I don't like shooting with the cameras that have pentamirrors (all budget DSLRs use these), because they are like mini tunnels. I'm thinking about selling my P7000 and D3100 for one of the mirrorless cameras, because they do offer almost the best of both worlds. I'd likely go for the E-PL2 if I do go that route, still something that is just on the edge of my mind. I don't like the SLT because you loose light, and when you are already using a crop sensor camera that = fail.

EVF just wont catch on, because it tells you nothing, not to mention that most of them just use a big LCD, like a point and shoot, unless you buy a viewfinder for them.

[Matsu]

A wicked evolution would come the SLR/SLT world if someone could figure out how to get photochromic glass to react fast enough. We already have this in motorcycle visors - a small current applied to a visor that turns it from light to dark, at will. Now all we need is a system to turn the SLT mirror from partially reflective, to fully transparent in the milliseconds required for camera operation. Then you'd have SLR performance without mechanical movements to control, could even work in programmable gradients, graduated filters, etc...

[PB PM]

That would be nice to have. One feature I like about the P7000 is the built in 3 stop ND filter.

[Matsu]

There may be some good news. Fuji is suggesting that the X100 and a forthcoming, and cheaper, X200 could be pre-cursors to an interchangable lens version! Fuji have made, and continue to make, some fantastic Medium Format RF gear, including lenses.

Today they have on sensor phase detection that appears to work well. If they improve the hybrid viewfinder (make it larger), launch with a handful of the most essential primes, make it full frame , and price it in line with entry level full frame DSLRs, it starts to be a very intriguing possibility, basically beating Leica to the AF digital M punch. I think it would sell very well at anywhere under $3K with lenses from 750-1500...

[PB PM]

That would be nice, much better than the micro 4/3s stuff on the market today. I'm still waiting to see if the rumored "professional" targeted mirrorless camera will come from Nikon.