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What do YOU feel about Nintendo's Shigeru Miyamoto?


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What do YOU feel about Nintendo's Shigeru Miyamoto?
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scratt
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2008-06-09, 04:45

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/25/ar...in&oref=slogin

Very interesting article from NYT. And no one can doubt his ability.

However, for my part you literally can count the games he has been involved in on one hand that I actually liked. Even then they are not games that had a long shelf life or a strong draw for me initially. Donkey Kong was perhaps my most favorite, and even then it was a 'B' arcade game for me.

Some of Nintendo's (read Miyamoto's) ideas border on cheesy, but have significant production advantages.

i.e. No voice acting but cheesy wha wha sounds and text speech.
Means games can have much larger communication databases, and these can alter much more dynamically than traditional voice acting. It also saves production time and money.

or. Nintendo 'Gituar Hero' clone will feature user created music, rather than license music.
Much much cheaper to produce, also much more potential for people to develop /grow themselves musically.

Nintendo are very very money orientated. Always have been. Their production costs and manufacturing costs are always geared towards maximizing sales, and reducing expenses.

Case in point.. They had a colour GameBoy in house years and years before it was released. They even had the production lines ready (and the 'SDK' (such as it was) was geared for colour programs), but while the B&W one was still selling they sat on it.

But a lot of what makes their games cheesy is the Disney feel to them. I am not a traditional Disney fan at all.. Hating Mickey as much as I hate Mario (The parallels are obvious).

I love Zelda, and it's scope, but wish it was more edgy.

Nintendo truly are the Disney of Video Games. I am not sure that is an accolade I would want, but noone can deny it's a great business model.

The Wii decisions are inspired decisions, and one can see the marketting genius behind them.

You can also see that a very caring and skilled job has been done by the developers.
But are these decisions done within an environment and a set of restricitons imposed by bean counters? I think so.
Which also shows genius in Miyamoto's design decisions. He really can get a lot out of things.

Or am I reading it all wrong and Miyamoto is happy to produce these products with these restrictions?

I am interested in people's thoughts on this..

EDIT - Ugh. Can an admin please correct 'fel' to 'feel' in the title!! Thanks.

'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take'
Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt
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Luca
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2008-06-09, 07:36

I changed your thread title.

Also, I basically agree with you. But I can't tell myself whether Nintendo's decision to never move any of their franchises forward or to create actual new material is the work of the bean counters or of Miyamoto himself. Every time I've seen him interviewed he seems positively giddy about making these games and he often specifically mentions how he doesn't want to include things like voice acting for various reasons.

I do agree that Nintendo is like Disney, but they are actually less innovative. They've stuck with the same basic characters for decades, refusing to move. Why? Because it's safe. Stick Mario on something and it'll be at least a mild success. Try something new and you have no idea whether it'll be successful or not. Nintendo doesn't want to compete head to head with other video game developers because they know they'd get beaten, so they use what they have (popular characters) as a hook. It pulls in enough people to make them hugely popular without having to invest as much time in design. And who cares if real gamers don't like them anymore? It doesn't matter because they've got ten times as many casual gamers who just eat that shit up.

I'm not saying Nintendo makes bad games, but they are very, very slow to move ahead, and they like to rest on their laurels. They've practically built a house on their laurels. It's kind of a shame, too, because clearly they have some very talented developers there, but they're not using them very innovatively.
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joveblue
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2008-06-09, 07:54

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
I do agree that Nintendo is like Disney, but they are actually less innovative. They've stuck with the same basic characters for decades, refusing to move. Why? Because it's safe. Stick Mario on something and it'll be at least a mild success. Try something new and you have no idea whether it'll be successful or not.
And here I am still thinking the Wii controller was a stupid crazy wacky idea (despite being proven wrong!!!)

I think Nintendo's platforms have generally been very innovative. But they're also platforms designed for the price-conscious. As for using the same characters, why not? People love the characters, why not give them more of what they want?
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Robo
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2008-06-09, 07:58

I don't know, Luca. This entire "blue ocean" strategy with the Wii is pretty "new." Games that used to have Mario slapped on the front now use Nintendo's generic "Mii" characters.

Granted, they might drive their "non-game" thing into the ground. Their focus on the casual gamer has already alienated many of their fans, who struggle to find anything on the Wii that isn't casual-gamer shovelware. But the public seems to be just love paying $50 for Carnival Games and Chicken Shoot, so who knows...

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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Koodari
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2008-06-09, 07:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by scratt View Post
Some of Nintendo's (read Miyamoto's) ideas border on cheesy, but have significant production advantages.

i.e. No voice acting but cheesy wha wha sounds and text speech.
Means games can have much larger communication databases, and these can alter much more dynamically than traditional voice acting. It also saves production time and money.

or. Nintendo 'Gituar Hero' clone will feature user created music, rather than license music.
Much much cheaper to produce, also much more potential for people to develop /grow themselves musically.
...
But are these decisions done within an environment and a set of restricitons imposed by bean counters? I think so.
Which also shows genius in Miyamoto's design decisions. He really can get a lot out of things.

Or am I reading it all wrong and Miyamoto is happy to produce these products with these restrictions?
He could very well be. In many instances I don't want to hear the characters speak. I feel it would be annoying in a game like Mario 64 (last Nintendo game I played more than a little).

It's not to make things easier for the artists that lead characters in manga are drawn with little detail, even while the background is drawn in excruciating detail in every frame. It serves a function.

It does piss me off that Nintendo is so backwards with the hardware, graphics technology and networking. I'm fine with utilitarian graphics, but today's hardware *really* should have digital output just to make it a good team player. We all know the cost of adding that possibility is pennies, and could be compensated (and more) by cable sales.
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Robo
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2008-06-09, 08:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koodari View Post
It does piss me off that Nintendo is so backwards with the hardware, graphics technology and networking. I'm fine with utilitarian graphics, but today's hardware *really* should have digital output just to make it a good team player. We all know the cost of adding that possibility is pennies, and could be compensated (and more) by cable sales.
Oh yeah. I hate that the Wii is the only thing in my home theater that's connected using analog cables. There's simply no other option.

What makes that even more unforgivable is that the original Gamecubes had digital A/V out. They later removed that, because so few people used it. Of course, the cables were only ever available at Nintendo.com, so can you blame people? (And it pissed me off that they removed the digital A/V out, rather than one of the three expansion ports on the bottom of the Gamecube. One was only used for the Game Boy Player, one was only used for the modem - which only three games, worldwide, supported - and the other was never used at all. Surely removing one or more of those expansion ports would reduce the cost of the system just as much as removing something that some people actually did use?)

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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Luca
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2008-06-09, 08:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by joveblue View Post
And here I am still thinking the Wii controller was a stupid crazy wacky idea (despite being proven wrong!!!)

I think Nintendo's platforms have generally been very innovative. But they're also platforms designed for the price-conscious. As for using the same characters, why not? People love the characters, why not give them more of what they want?
I don't think Nintendo is at all for the price conscious. They appear that way on the surface, but the initial purchase price is only $30 less than the Xbox 360 Arcade, and then you have the vast number of accessories for it. Extra controllers are $60 each, which is a lot - Xbox 360 and PS3 controllers are quite a bit less. The Wii also places a lot of emphasis on local multiplayer, so those extra controllers are almost required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboman View Post
I don't know, Luca. This entire "blue ocean" strategy with the Wii is pretty "new." Games that used to have Mario slapped on the front now use Nintendo's generic "Mii" characters.

Granted, they might drive their "non-game" thing into the ground. Their focus on the casual gamer has already alienated many of their fans, who struggle to find anything on the Wii that isn't casual-gamer shovelware. But the public seems to be just love paying $50 for Carnival Games and Chicken Shoot, so who knows...
As for your first point, let me counter with this: Super Mario Galaxy, Super Paper Mario, Mario Strikers Charged, Mario Kart, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Dr. Mario Online Rx, Mario and Sonic at the Olympics, Mario Party 8, Super Mario Sluggers (upcoming). What was that about not slapping Mario on everything?

I agree on your second point. I am not so sure about casual gamers. They aren't people who've made gaming a part of their life, really, so there's no telling what they might do. Are they just buying a Wii and playing Wii Sports and nothing else? Do they buy some crappy games like Ninjabread Man and get disenchanted? Are they going to go on to buy Nintendo's next console, or will they have lost interest at that point? The Wii hooked people in with the promise of innovative, friendly motion controls. If the Wii's successor just offers more of the same, I don't think it'll be particularly popular. But how can Nintendo possibly top themselves next time around?

I also think a lot of gamers (not just hardcore gamers, but people who play a lot of games in general) are afraid of Nintendo's success because they're afraid it'll start an industrywide trend of creating casual game shovelware because it's more profitable than making good games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboman View Post
Oh yeah. I hate that the Wii is the only thing in my home theater that's connected using analog cables. There's simply no other option.

What makes that even more unforgivable is that the original Gamecubes had digital A/V out. They later removed that, because so few people used it. Of course, the cables were only ever available at Nintendo.com, so can you blame people? (And it pissed me off that they removed the digital A/V out, rather than one of the three expansion ports on the bottom of the Gamecube. One was only used for the Game Boy Player, one was only used for the modem - which only three games, worldwide, supported - and the other was never used at all. Surely removing one or more of those expansion ports would reduce the cost of the system just as much as removing something that some people actually did use?)
Agreed there, except the GameCube didn't have a digital A/V out. It had a separate output for the component cables. The Wii also uses component. The only difference is that the Wii has just one A/V output port that works with either composite or component cables, compared with the GameCube's separate ports. But both of them used component, which is analog.

But yeah, it was supremely dumb of them to remove the component output from the GameCube. I mean, why the hell would they do that? It was NOT the cost - as you said, they could have removed all those other ports that do nothing.

That's something that bugs me about Nintendo. They seem to consider themselves a better judge of their customers than the customers themselves. They remove features and are slow to adopt new technology, and they claim that it's because people don't want those things, but it all just seems made up to me. It's like they arbitrarily decide what people want and don't want. Actually, it sort of reminds me of the "Disney Vault" concept.

Maybe they're basing these claims on sales figures, but I'm sure Nintendo stuff would sell well regardless of what restrictions they decided to put on them. They claim that people don't want this feature or that, but the fact is that while many people would like certain features, they're going to buy Nintendo stuff anyway, because it's Nintendo. They see good online numbers for Brawl and Mario Kart and decide that people must just LOVE friend codes, but in reality they hate them and only put up with them because there's no other option.
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Robo
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2008-06-09, 08:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
Agreed there, except the GameCube didn't have a digital A/V out. It had a separate output for the component cables. The Wii also uses component. The only difference is that the Wii has just one A/V output port that works with either composite or component cables, compared with the GameCube's separate ports. But both of them used component, which is analog.
You're right, now that I think about it. The port does read "Digital A/V Out," but the only cables available were component cables, which are analog (HDMI wouldn't become commonplace until some time after the GC's launch, obviously).

I still don't get why they removed the port, though. There were other things they could have removed first.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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scratt
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2008-06-09, 10:16

Thanks for editing the title Luca.

Thanks for the input everyone. Just after posting I wondered if this thread might get lost in the WWDC frenzy.

I had a chance to play with a DS whilst I was in the UK. I was actually quite impressed with the build quality, and the Apple-esque feel to the little white unit. But never the less I could still see where Nintendo had cut a few corners with the final unit. Just small things, but definitely there.

Luca .. I'd love to see a link to the article where Miyamoto talks about why he does not use voice artists.

Off topic slightly.. I was also very suprised to see that quit a lot of the big Japanese names are moving into a small company which is going to contract to Sega. One of their major projects is an apparently quite ambitious and quite deep Space Sim for the DS.

I do think that Nintendo do seem to direct what their consumers get, rather than follow what they want.
Perhaps we will soon see some cool stuff for the Wii.
I picked up Boom Blox on the way back from the UK but have not had time to play it yet.

At the end of the day IMHO the Wii is an awesomely skillful move by a company interested in market share and with no ambitions to be an artistic world leader. They saw an untapped demographic and took some fairly old technology that any of the previous, or this generation, consoles already have in one form or another. They then packaged it so that it made sense to the masses - in a nice white box. Brilliantly clever and cynical.

I am not sure if the 360 has a light gun game. But the PS3 has, and previous PS versions have. And accelerometers were part of the original PS3 package.

A old console, a light gun and some accelerometers is all the Wii is, at the end of the day.

Ironically, the software and the packaging are the important part here. It's simple, plug and go, and came with bundled with easy to grasp low quality games.

A very "Apple style" marketing strategy.

I'll have a hunt for some of Miyamoto's interviews as I'd love to understand if they guy is really talented, or just a box shifter.

I guess easy to use and kid friendly is what makes any company like Disney or Nintendo successful when it's the parents buying the product. With recent polls on gaming demographics it's clear to see we have several splits in the industry.

The most interesting lines to me are those between high end and low end simulation and the age demographics.

'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take'
Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt
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Luca
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2008-06-09, 10:21

I've heard that the PS3 lightgun game is way better than any of the Wii ones. The difference is that the Wii doesn't actually use lightgun technology, it uses IR emitters (placed in the incorrectly-named "sensor" bar) and an IR sensor in the Wiimote. It's a lot less accurate and a little laggy. Wii "lightgun" games are really more like point and click games. You don't aim, you move a reticle around the screen.
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Wrao
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2008-06-09, 12:14

If the Wii remote is "a lot less accurate" That's got to be some nerd calculation, in real world use, assuming you have it set up right(which can be a bit of a mess depending on your TV/room situation) the performance is exceptionally sensitive and precise. If that is "a lot less accurate" than something else.... big whoop.
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Wrao
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2008-06-09, 12:24

I consider myself a slightly above 'casual' gamer. In that, I barely play games, but I have interest in game development as an art. For my money, Mario Galaxy may very well be the most original, creative and forward thinking platformer since... well Mario 64. I also haven't stopped playing Mario Kart since it came out.

Other than that, I don't feel I am qualified enough(in my video game usage) to comment further.
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Luca
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2008-06-09, 13:01

You know, I was going to come in here and explain the differences between the Wii pointing system and traditional light guns, but it turns out the light gun game for the PS3 uses basically the same technology as the Wii.

Older light gun games like Duck Hunt, as well as anything in a video arcade, were very different from the new ones because they read information from the screen itself rather than using an infrared pointing device. They were much more accurate because you could actually point at the screen and it would shoot right where you pointed. However, those methods were all designed to use with CRT monitors.

So the new ones all use IR pointing, which is just not as good. You're more moving a pointer over a screen than you are aiming. If you actually aim down a Wii remote like a gun, where you hit won't even be close to where you're pointing.

Wii games that use the IR pointing are variable in how well they do it. Most are pretty good, though.
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Wrao
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2008-06-09, 13:16

Well in all the point and shoot games I've played on the wii(various monkey ball and mario party mini games as well as metroid prime) I hit where I point. It hasn't been an issue at all, and I've generally excelled at these games.

Although, the last time I played duck hunt it was a tragedy. So perhaps my aim is terrible and the wii is just really forgiving.
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Luca
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2008-06-09, 13:24

No no no, I mean that in new IR light gun games, you're moving a cursor around. Old light gun games that used CRT timing didn't have cursors because you were supposed to just hold the gun like a real gun, aiming at targets down the sights. New light gun games place a cursor on your screen that you move by moving your Wii remote or light gun, but if you hold the remote up and try to aim "down the sight" (so to speak), it won't be pointing at the same spot where the cursor is on the screen.

Try it sometime. All I'm saying is that if you point the remote at the screen and put your eye right behind it, you will not be able to draw a straight line from your eye, through the remote's IR sensor, and onto the target on the screen.
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scratt
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2008-06-09, 15:57

The current LED system, which as Luca says is also the method on the PS3 gun games, is quite different from the old scan line solution.

The earlier systems (non-LED) did seem a lot more accurate and faster, but I have to wonder if that was to do with the low-tech / hard wired nature of the systems they were on. Binatone type early consoles.

All "VR" solutions to date (even the commercial ones I worked on) have lag. Lag is the number one killer of all VR solutions, and is responsible for the phrase we had for 'Virtual Sickness' when immersed in an HMD. But all sensor to screen translation has lag, and will do until we speed up sensors and couple that with frame rates of 50fps and above.

I have to wonder if the fact that these newer systems put a pointer on the screen, whereas the old point and shooters never did, we are simply aware of the lag now because we can see it.. In essence the pointer position has to be got from the screen a frame before it is drawn, and (best case) it will be drawn the next frame.. So a lag of a 20th of a second or more is likely.

When the Wii was first announced and we all thought it was going to be a VR system, this was one of the reasons I poo-pooed it.

In it's actual incarnation I am just a bit disappointed with the overall accuracy of the pointing system, rather like Luca. And setup does seem pretty hard to get just right.. Three friends / family installations I have played were awfully jittery.

I am not convinced that the LED solution is that far from the accuracy of the old systems, but that it's range is more likely the culprit. Certainly Time Crisis 4 on the PS3 and gun I was sent to play it with seem a tad more accurate. The game is pants.. apart from the duck shoot. Which my wife and I get very competitive on. Thinking about it that is damn accurate.. Just like an old Binatone Duck Shoot.. And I guess that has a 50fps+ frame rate.
So perhaps it is just implementation on Nintendo side that is a bit flawed / cheap.

But Boy! Haven't we come a long way from Miyamoto!!!?!

'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take'
Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt
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Xaqtly
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2008-06-09, 16:22

Meh, I'll play any game Miyamoto makes, and I'll probably love it. There's something about his approach to creating games that resonates with me, so I tend to love all of them.
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