[Messiahtosh]

I am a student at Penn State University, studying Information Sciences and Technology-one of very few schools in the country to offer such a major. The IST building is a 55 million dollar technical marvel, beautiful and filled with computer labs and state of the art everything.

Trouble is, I don't know if it is where I should be. Granted, I'm only a Freshman and I have not had that much time yet to really figure out what the major is all about, but I can't help but think that IST is not for me.

I have wanted to and have known that I want to work for Apple Computer. There is no other company or place I would rather work. I have seen Cupertino California, and I have used Apple products my whole life (well, ever since we got rid of that DOS PC, back in the day). I want to be a part of the teams that help to take complicated, archaic technology and turn it into something that is easy-to-use and useful. Apple seems to be one of the few places left that really, really tries to do that with every product.

Whether it be in marketing, finance, product management (someday...maybe), or even the guy sweeping the floor, I know Apple is where I want to be. I just don't know what path to take to make it there. I know I have a good understanding of Apple's products and I know I could sell them effectively to people (as I have for a long time). I just wonder what the best major would be to study, for me to end up where I have always dreamed about working.

I love marketing and everything that goes with it, such as face to face salesmanship, presentation giving, product planning, target market analysis, and all of that. Maybe I should transfer to the business college at PSU? Marketers just seem like a dime a dozen though.

IST is what I chose because it gives a broad overview of technology, educating the students in some programming, system management and design, business, and much more...I just thought that maybe it would be like a double edged sword, in that it would give me some good technical training and background (knowing how things work) and also some business -like education that would help in understanding how to really implement all of the actual technology.

I really don't know what to do.

[hmurchison]

Working for Apple is a dream of a lot of people but once you have your degree you're going to be looking for the right "mix". That job that offers a lot of potential and pays well. I like Apple too but I'm not giving up 10k salary to have Steve sign my checks.

[Messiahtosh]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't really care. I am going to work there, whatever it takes (almost haha). Competition is outrageous at Apple, so that's obviously something to take into account. Many people want to work for them and the number of over qualified applicants is probably extremely high, in fact; Apple hardly ever hires college graduates, when they can get guys with 10 years of industry experience, but I can always try...right?

[thuh Freak]

from my understanding, jobs likes to question people's sexual exploits during interviews. make sure to factor that in.

we had an IT major at RIT, which i think is a similar idea to your IST. my roommate was IT. we always made fun of him for it. like, whenever someone asked what classes he takes or whatever, and he told them, it was like "oh, ur it. why dont u have a real major." ...the humor doesn't seem to come out as nicely in text. but anyway, if you aren't sure about ur major, take some classes that are closer to your interest. even if they are out of ur major. u might be able to get them as electives for whatever major u end up going with in the future. even if not, you atleast got to learn something interesting and maybe it'll clue u in on how terrible or great your dreams might be.

you should also realize that despite the fact that you are hard set on ur goal now, you may not feel as strongly about it in a year or whatever. i went into college thinking that the only job i really wanted was in cupertino. then i got a real job. and now my soul is crushed. not only do i realize that apple is probably not going to happen, but i'm somewhat disinterested in the idea of working there. i wouldn't turn it down, unless it was too little money, but i'm not focusing all my attention on that goal.

[Messiahtosh]

Thank you for the reply, but some people are, shall we say, "dead-set on doing a certain thing with their life." I am one of those people, and it's Apple that I'm dead-set on.

I hope college helps me learn new skills that will help me to achieve my goal. Because, right now, IST doesnt quite seem like it will do all that much to help me reach my goal.

[alcimedes]

i was going to work there, but they said my salary requirements were too high.

they weren't that high, i was already willing to take a bit if a cut to work there. in any case, they pay decently, but not anywhere near the best. i was impressed that they didn't need people who'd drunk the Kool-aid in order to be willing to hire them though.

[ast3r3x]

I just went to my college orientation today. For Management Information Systems. Well, since it's my first year, it's just random general classes and nothing specific...and it won't be till I head to PSU Main Campus (at Berks Campus now)

Well, I'm not sure it's what I want to do, or even where I want to go, now that I've been there and are going to start Aug 31st. I was thinking maybe transferring somewhere, and maybe changing majors. How hard is becoming a doctor? Think I could get into somewhere for pre-med if I did like perfect this year? (sorry to post off topic)

[BuonRotto]

Don't forget that they do background screening and perform an exhaustive psychological evaluation. They don't need Johnny Appleseed going postal when he gets a pink slip if ya know what I'm sayin'.

Seriously, working at a few places can be good even if you eventually want to be at Apple. The greater perspective you have, the more you can bring new ideas to the place. While I bet there are great aspects to working there, you don't want to be too provincial about the experience if/when you do go.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by Messiahtosh Thank you for the reply, but some people are, shall we say, "dead-set on doing a certain thing with their life." I am one of those people, and it's Apple that I'm dead-set on. I hope college helps me learn new skills that will help me to achieve my goal. Because, right now, IST doesnt quite seem like it will do all that much to help me reach my goal.

If you want to work for Apple do something wonderful. Apple seems to like self starters.

Doug Wyatt- one of the authors of Opcode's OMS.
James McCartney- creator of Supercollider
Stuart Chesire- Zeroconf fame
D. Giampaolo- co author of Be FS
Chris Moulious- Acid inventor
Stan Jirman- TIFFany co author
Jeffrey Robbin- Conflict Catcher, Sound Jam Author

New additions seems to be

Justin Wood- Proteus fame
Pierre Latour- pixelshox author openGL whiz


etc etc etc. Apple has the "who's who" of programming talent. It's why they can compete with the larger programmer resources that Microsoft has.

Messiahtosh if you want to work for Apple you will. You'll put in the work and bust your ass and you'll be walking the halls of cupertino before Joe Pa is crapping in his Depends.

[psmith2.0]

People always assume that I'd be dying to work there, when, fact is, I have no desire whatsoever. It would simply be a "job" then, and I think most - if not all - of the magic and appeal would be zapped.

I'm sure, once you get past the initial "OHMIGOD, I work for Apple!" rush, it's just like any other job, unless you're truly in the mix and have your hands on the newest, coolest stuff (in other words, being Jonathan Ive's assistant or whatever).



Anything else there - accounting, marketing, legal, shipping, HR, web maintenance, orders, etc. - couldn't be that special, could it? I mean, I guess you'd get to use an iMac or whatever for your job...



The marketing department could potentially be cool...that is, if they actually had one.



Nah, I don't ever want to do that...and I'm sure with some of the Jobs-mocking posts I've made, I've all but ensured I'd never be asked in anyway. Plus, big companies these days have strict, hard-nosed sexual harrassment policies...and I'd hate to imagine Danika getting in trouble for following me around all day, asking me to dinner and whatnot.

[Messiahtosh]

Originally Posted by hmurchison \Messiahtosh if you want to work for Apple you will. You'll put in the work and bust your ass and you'll be walking the halls of cupertino before Joe Pa is crapping in his Depends.

[MCQ]

If you want to do something like software development at Apple, I think hmurchison is right on the money... Apple likes to see people that have taken initiative to create their own programs.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the MIS type majors, because I think while it does present a broad range of information, it might spread you a little to thin in all areas, so you may not be in-depth enough for any specific area. It's definitely good for management positions that still require a bit of technical background for high-level design.

It sounds a bit more like you'd want to be a product evangelist of some sort for Apple based on the comments you've made.

[Messiahtosh]

I wouldn't mind becoming the next Schiller, minus a few hundred lbs.

[Messiahtosh]

Originally Posted by ast3r3x I just went to my college orientation today. For Management Information Systems. Well, since it's my first year, it's just random general classes and nothing specific...and it won't be till I head to PSU Main Campus (at Berks Campus now) Well, I'm not sure it's what I want to do, or even where I want to go, now that I've been there and are going to start Aug 31st. I was thinking maybe transferring somewhere, and maybe changing majors. How hard is becoming a doctor? Think I could get into somewhere for pre-med if I did like perfect this year? (sorry to post off topic)

You're going to PSU also? Shoot me an IM sometime, that's awesome man!

[Mac+]

I'd like to work in their Human Factors Dpt... it's what I'm studying now - but I also think that once you get the job there and the initial gee-whiz factor wears off it may be just ho-hum. Kinda nice to keep the mystique sometimes.

But by all means go for it Messiahtosh. It's good to have drive!

Just bear in mind that it may be worth your while getting some perspective (in terms of employment) from other organisations before you bet the farm on Apple.

[AirSluf]

XXXXX

[dfj225]

If you are interested in really getting to know technology and want to dive deep into computers, I would suggest that you switch majors to computer science. From my view of the buisiness world (and what people have told me), CS majors are much more employable at the type of job you seem to want (creating software I'm guessing). Also, it would probably be fairly simple to minor in buisiness if you still would like to approach things from that angle as well.

You mentioned that Apple hardly ever hires people right out of college and I'm guessing that the reason they don't is because the typically college graduate has no real experience. My tip to you would be to try to find internships throughout college. Make sure they are ones where you learn something and not just bring people coffee Also, since you want to work at Apple and they seem to like people that have shown their creativity already, you could create software or some device that gets noticed. If you ever have a good idea, you could start a company around it. Don't worry if you decide to go only the buisiness route in school, you can always hire programmers to write the code for you. I would say to just be careful and make sure what you create is pattentable so something like the Konfabulator ordeal doesn't happen to you. After all, the goal is to have you get hired by Apple, not steal your idea!

[applenut]

if you're good apple will hire you out of college. it's not like they have a set policy. i know people who have been hired out of college.

apple also has many nice college internship programs.

with that said, I wanted to work at Apple for a long time. But then I realized I wanted to do something else and was more talented in an area that would be quite difficult getting hired by Apple in....architecture.

If you want to work at Apple get a part time gig as an Apple Store employee. You get the @apple.com email address, they fly you to cupertino if you're a genius, the pay is pretty good, you get the employee discount, etc. Although, to be honest, you don't seem to be the type that they hire.

[LoCash]

Originally Posted by thuh Freak from my understanding, jobs likes to question people's sexual exploits during interviews. make sure to factor that in. we had an IT major at RIT, which i think is a similar idea to your IST. my roommate was IT. we always made fun of him for it. like, whenever someone asked what classes he takes or whatever, and he told them, it was like "oh, ur it. why dont u have a real major." ...the humor doesn't seem to come out as nicely in text. but anyway, if you aren't sure about ur major, take some classes that are closer to your interest. even if they are out of ur major. u might be able to get them as electives for whatever major u end up going with in the future. even if not, you atleast got to learn something interesting and maybe it'll clue u in on how terrible or great your dreams might be. you should also realize that despite the fact that you are hard set on ur goal now, you may not feel as strongly about it in a year or whatever. i went into college thinking that the only job i really wanted was in cupertino. then i got a real job. and now my soul is crushed. not only do i realize that apple is probably not going to happen, but i'm somewhat disinterested in the idea of working there. i wouldn't turn it down, unless it was too little money, but i'm not focusing all my attention on that goal.

and for god's sake take an English class or two while you're in college and practice what they teach

[thuh Freak]

Originally Posted by LoCash and for god's sake take an English class or two while you're in college and practice what they teach

larning if for suckers. we, men of true grit, kno that college is jus about chicks and booze.

[RolandG]

How come there is such a negative attitude towards IST students in here? What is the IST ciriculum is like in America?

By the way, can someone please explain to me what exactly gradute and undergradute studies are? What degree do you earn by completing four years of IST studies? When do you get your bachelor or your masters degree?

[LoCash]

Originally Posted by RolandG How come there is such a negative attitude towards IST students in here? What is the IST ciriculum is like in America? By the way, can someone please explain to me what exactly gradute and undergradute studies are? What degree do you earn by completing four years of IST studies? When do you get your bachelor or your masters degree?

Undergraduate is a four year bachelor's degree. Graduate programs start at two years I believe and net you a master's degree.

[RolandG]

Originally Posted by LoCash Undergraduate is a four year bachelor's degree. Graduate programs start at two years I believe and net you a master's degree.

Ok, I see.

What is the undergradute ciriculum like? What classes do you have to take besides the ones you are majoring in?

[LoCash]

It varies from program to program and school to school. For my Fine Arts degree, I had to complete three years of full time studio artwork at the Museum of Fine Arts followed by eighteen academic courses at Tufts University. Those 18 broke down to two English courses, six Art History courses, two social sciences, two humanities, two math/science, and four electives. My program was a bit more demanding than a traditional undergraduate curriculum. A normal courseload at a university is about three courses a semester. Tufts considered four courses a heavy load. So I had approximately two years and change worth of academic coursework on top of three years worth of full time studio artwork. The full time studio work leaves you with practically no time outside of the studio either

[Moogs]

Originally Posted by thuh Freak larning if for suckers. we, men of true grit, kno that college is jus about chicks and booze.

Greatest grammar-deficient sentence of all times!

[Brad]

applenut, stop provoking Messiahtosh. This is not an "anything goes" playground for you. Your bantering posts have been deleted.

That's offense number two. I'm being extremely lenient, but I'm at the end of my line now.

[dfj225]

Originally Posted by RolandG How come there is such a negative attitude towards IST students in here? What is the IST ciriculum is like in America? By the way, can someone please explain to me what exactly gradute and undergradute studies are? What degree do you earn by completing four years of IST studies? When do you get your bachelor or your masters degree?

I know that at my school (and one of the employers that hires many from my college) IST is considered "lower" down the ladder than CS. It's a fact that many CS students drop out of CS to IST once the classes get more difficult. I think the largest difference is that IST majors are trained more to please others and use computers rather than create software of design algorithms or somthing of that sort. Now, I think what really comes into play is when an IST major tries to do the work of a CS major -- I think it would often prove difficult for them. However, it should be easy for a CS major to do the work typical of an IST major. Think about it, if you know how to make software you should definetly know how to use it . Now, what I say is not the be-all end-all. These are just my impressions from my limited experience.

[noleli2]

Originally Posted by dfj225 Think about it, if you know how to make software you should definetly know how to use it .

You'd be suprised. I know a lot of EE and Computer Engineering majors, and even some CS majors that are downright stupid with computers. Sure, they can SSH into the school's Linux servers, program in Emacs, and type "g++", but that's because there are explicit instructions on how to do those things. Many of these people lack general computing skills.

Back on topic though, I do know a guy who got a job at Apple right out of school, but this is a guy who had gotten a student WWDC scholarship and won the Apple Student Developer competition already. Good luck, though!

[Brad]

Originally Posted by noleli2 You'd be suprised. I know a lot of EE and Computer Engineering majors, and even some CS majors that are downright stupid with computers.

Well, something you should keep in mind is that an EE is very different from a CPE which in turn is very different from CSC.

Electrical engineering deals a lot with circuits, logic design, robotics, communications, lasers... it can cover a lot. You don't necessarily have to be a computer whiz at all to get through EE. CPE is basically EE with a focus on computer hardware. That's embedded systems, chip design, chip fabrication, networking, etc. CPEs do deal with programming, but they do it on the low level in lots of assembly and some C. It's the CSC folks that primarily deal with the high-level stuff that most people see on a day-to-day basis. CSC folks deal with lots of data structures, object orientation, code optimization, etc.

The easiest way to think about it is that CPEs do hardware and CSCs do software. Of course, this is grossly oversimplified, but its mostly true.

So, give some of those guys a break. It's the CSC guys that you should really be disappointed with if they can't find their way around a computer.

Yeah... so... back on topic...

[Crusader]

Well at UMBC the hierarchy is seen as:
Computer Engineering
Electrical Engineering
Computer Science
Information Systems

One drops out to the lower course. I entered in as CompE, but my math is a year behind, so I may do a triple IS/Law/History. Unfortunately networking is only offered as part of CompE, so... I donno. I'll have to see how it goes.