[Koodari]

Originally Posted by Kickaha The gaming market is dying on the PC, however. (Yes, yes, I know, it's still big - but when EA pulls Madden (like it announced), the magazine "Gaming for Windows" outright dies, instead of going online (like just happened), and companies like Epic announce that the PC market is now an afterthought for them, the writing is on the wall, in big 12' flaming letters with neon highlights.)

Yeah, PC gaming market has been dying for 20 years now. This time it's a goner for sure.

I'm seeing some very positive things in PC gaming right now, and directions it can (continue) to go that consoles won't at least for a long time. The retail shelf, EA, Epic and one dead-tree publication do not equal gaming today and especially gaming tomorrow.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Koodari Yeah, PC gaming market has been dying for 20 years now. This time it's a goner for sure. I'm seeing some very positive things in PC gaming right now, and directions it can (continue) to go that consoles won't at least for a long time.

Such as?

The retail shelf, EA, Epic and one dead-tree publication do not equal gaming today and especially gaming tomorrow.

No, you're right, the major distribution channel and two of the largest publishers don't have much sway in the industry...

[scratt]

I agree with you mostly Kick.. But EA!?! Come on.. They've never actually written a real game ever.

[Kickaha]

Hey, I said largest, not best.

[Koodari]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Such as?

Network distribution for both large and small games (e.g. Steam). Payment models radically different from the classic "$50 up front" (e.g. Gametap). Games can be published and user-created content used without censorship, which is really healthy for the medium. Free mod -> commercial game is now considered a normal development path. Multiple studios are working with episodic gaming. Indie market feels to have nice momentum already, and everything I've listed will only make it stronger in the future. For some reason Eastern Europeans seem to have emerged in a particularly positive light lately, doing good work.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Koodari Network distribution for both large and small games (e.g. Steam).

XBox Live, Wii Virtual Console, whateverSonyiscallingtheirs...

Payment models radically different from the classic "$50 up front" (e.g. Gametap).

See above.

Games can be published and user-created content used without censorship, which is really healthy for the medium. Free mod -> commercial game is now considered a normal development path.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this what we're seeing with the moddable games on consoles now?

Multiple studios are working with episodic gaming.

Again... how is this unique to the PC? I get the feeling you have a view of consoles as standalone, locked, non-updatable, non-networked machines. They're PCs.

Indie market feels to have nice momentum already, and everything I've listed will only make it stronger in the future. For some reason Eastern Europeans seem to have emerged in a particularly positive light lately, doing good work.

I dunno. If the indie market is what keeps gaming on the PC alive, how is that going to drive insane hardware advances, which was the original point? Technologies that require massive hardware advances almost always require massive investment.

[Luca]

I think one of the big things holding back PC development is the perception by developers that everyone pirates PC games. That's almost impossible to do with console games, but relatively easy for PC games. I'm not sure it's as bad as developers think it is (some erroneously look at the number of times it's been downloaded and claim that they lost that many sales), but it certainly plays a factor.

Another big problem, and this was raised by Epic programmer Tim Sweeny, is the lack of gaming-capable PCs on the market today. Most PCs, even desktops, have horrible Intel graphics. He places some of the blame for the PC gaming slump on Intel for not designing an integrated graphics chipset that is useful for anything beyond basic video output and movie playback. It's too bad because passable 3D acceleration isn't even very expensive. You can get a GeForce 8400GS, for instance, for only about $30. It's a crappy card but it's still about the same as the Radeon HD2400 in the low-end iMac, and it'll play most modern 3D games if you don't max out your settings.

Games are heading towards the same mass-market audience as computers, and they're having a lot of the same problems. It makes things harder for enthusiasts who want to upgrade their stuff and tweak things. There are some people out there for whom console gaming just doesn't make sense, and I'm one of them.

1. I already have a computer that plays games with more detail and at better framerates than an Xbox 360 or PS3.
2. I don't have an HDTV so I can't take advantage of the high resolution graphics offered by modern consoles.
3. Because of those things, I've invested some money into my computer and into PC games, so I'd have to rebuy a lot of my games if I wanted to switch to console gaming.
4. Also, because my TV is only standard definition, I decided to get a Wii. It offers a much more different style of gaming from a PC compared to the 360/PS3. Unfortunately, there aren't a whole lot of great Wii games. Most of them are total crap and developers don't seem to want to even try to make decent games.

What bothers me is that the two platforms I have access to (the Wii and the PC) have both been forsaken by game developers. It's this dumb cyclical reasoning where developers churn out crappy games that no one buys (because they suck), and then they see those bad sales figures and put even less effort into making decent games, or they abandon the platform completely.

I understand the current industry trends, it just sucks for me (and for a lot of other people). I think one thing that could help save PC gaming is Steam. It's the best digital distribution scheme out there. Developers get a bigger cut of the profits, have reduced costs (no need to print media or packaging), and they encourage people to buy new instead of pirating while also preventing the sale of used games. I don't like that I can't sell a game if I don't like it, but at least I know that going into it. And if that's what it takes to save PC gaming, I'm willing to make that sacrifice. The nice thing about Steam is that it's easy to make backups and you can always re-download your games, and EA isn't on it so you don't have to be subjected to their crappy games.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Luca Games are heading towards the same mass-market audience as computers, and they're having a lot of the same problems. It makes things harder for enthusiasts who want to upgrade their stuff and tweak things. There are some people out there for whom console gaming just doesn't make sense, and I'm one of them.

Nail, head, meet.

Well said.

As I see it, the high-end, graphics-intensive gaming is going to migrate to consoles, while the casual gaming will continue to thrive on the PC. There will still be an indie game market, there will almost certainly even be some solid casual game publishers on the PC... but the 'hardcore' gaming crowd, the market that has driven most of the graphics (and arguably mobo) hardware development, is going to end up on consoles, whether they like it or not.

Net result to the PC industry: movement towards casual 'appliances'.

[Luca]

However, there are still a few developers that are giving as much or more attention to PC gaming as they are to console gaming. Valve being the main one. Team Fortress 2 is generally regarded as being pretty superior on a computer vs. a console.

I still think consoles need one more generation for me to really consider them. Here's what's going to happen in the next generation that will push me towards getting an Xbox 720 or PS4:

- HDMI will become standard across all consoles, even at the lower end price points. That means it'll be easy to connect them to a DVI monitor. For the time being, HDMI is still only present on some Xbox 360s and PS4s.
- Hard drives will become standard on all variants and will be much larger.
- By the time they come out I'll probably have an HDTV. Also, by then, PC gaming will likely be in a much worse state of affairs, AND my computer will be running out of steam.

One thing I'm worried about is keyboard and mouse control. I'll admit to being an FPS junkie and I really dislike dual analog controls. I want it to be easy to hook up a keyboard and mouse (or even a mini "gaming keypad" instead of a full keyboard). Otherwise it'll be hard for me to justify getting a console. Another problem is the lack of community mods for games—that's been integral towards PC gaming since the early 90s, but it's nonexistent on consoles. Instead we get map packs that cost $5-$10.

Unfortunately, PC gaming seems to be heading toward the realm of MMORPGs and not much else. I can't stand MMORPGs.

Anyway, PC gaming is going downhill, but people are predicting its death too early. There's some life left in it, and it could still rebound.

[BuonRotto]

Originally Posted by Kickaha As I see it, the high-end, graphics-intensive gaming is going to migrate to consoles, while the casual gaming will continue to thrive on the PC...

....which, interestingly, Apple seems to be more interested in as gaming goes on the Mac. Except they aren't "getting" the whole online gaming thing yet. Apple seems to be half-assed about both "web 2.0"/"social networking" as well as gaming. Whether it's due to near-sightedness or far-sightedness, I guess we'll find out. Personally, I'm waiting for A. online casual gaming to take over the PC gaming space, and B. for the Facebook bubble to burst. Then again, I think casual gaming will be more oriented towards online communities too, so that's kind of both getting shmushed together isn't it?

[Koodari]

Originally Posted by Kickaha XBox Live, Wii Virtual Console, whateverSonyiscallingtheirs...

... do not accommodate full-size games yet. Maybe in next console iteration.

See above.

None of the console manufacturers have tried GameTap type pricing yet, as far as I know.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this what we're seeing with the moddable games on consoles now?

You quoted two different things, but I assume you are referring to the pipeline from mods to commercial games. I said it has now become routine on the PC. I'd be somewhat surprised if there was a game in production now that has picked up its initial popularity as a mod on a console, seeing how recent console support for mods is and how little it has spread. The only instance I know of where you are actually able to drop in your own total conversion and play is UT3 on PS3. It's still somewhat limited vs the PC version, AFAIK you can't load your own sound assets at all.

Again... how is this unique to the PC? I get the feeling you have a view of consoles as standalone, locked, non-updatable, non-networked machines. They're PCs.

I'm just saying it hasn't caught fire in the console market yet (or I haven't heard of it), not that the consoles can't do this.

And no, the consoles aren't PC's before you can run actual code on them, and sell a commercial game without Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft having a say. They are locked, absolutely.

I dunno. If the indie market is what keeps gaming on the PC alive, how is that going to drive insane hardware advances, which was the original point? Technologies that require massive hardware advances almost always require massive investment.

I don't consider having a hardware edge over consoles to be critical for PC gaming's success. I see no "point" whatsoever in hardware advances in a vacuum.

[scratt]

I don't know where the idea that pirating PC games is easier than consoles...

Luca, I made that mistake with the head of the the anti-piracy group FAST in the UK many moons ago.. At dinner one night I mused that 'no-body actually buys software', but that was from the perspective of a programmer who always got his stuff for free. The industry would simply die if *no-one* bought games.

Consoles are simply an easier, more constant global market, with stable hardware based on a known standard. If EA had their way there would be one console for all.. globally. Period.

You never have to buy a Wii, PS2 or 360 game in the lifetime of your console if you don't want to. They are all available on street corners and online.

The PS3 is the only secure console at the moment, and even that is technically possible to crack.. In fact easier than the others.. It's just prohibitive in terms of cost of media to pirate that software at the moment.. Just like it was when the PS2 first came out.

[Luca]

Originally Posted by BuonRotto ....which, interestingly, Apple seems to be more interested in as gaming goes on the Mac. Except they aren't "getting" the whole online gaming thing yet. Apple seems to be half-assed about both "web 2.0"/"social networking" as well as gaming. Whether it's due to near-sightedness or far-sightedness, I guess we'll find out. Personally, I'm waiting for A. online casual gaming to take over the PC gaming space, and B. for the Facebook bubble to burst. Then again, I think casual gaming will be more oriented towards online communities too, so that's kind of both getting shmushed together isn't it?

Actually, there's some of that with Kongregate.com. Flash games + social networking + Facebook tie-in.

Originally Posted by Koodari ... do not accommodate full-size games yet.

Actually they do. Not sure about PSN, but Xbox Live has full (original) Xbox games available for download. I know Ninja Gaiden Black is one of them, and Ikaruga is another (even though Ikaruga was original for GameCube). They're not expensive and you just play them locally on the hard drive.

The Wii will be getting WiiWare in about a month, which will have much bigger and more complex games than the VC offers. The problem there is that Nintendo probably won't let you play WiiWare games from the SD card, and the 512 MB of internal memory isn't much room. If Nintendo would get their head out of their ass and let you either play from the SD card or provide a USB hard drive, that would be nice, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Originally Posted by scratt I don't know where the idea that pirating PC games is easier than consoles...

Simple. Consoles require a modchip to run burned games. PCs don't (you don't even have to burn the game, just run it from a disk image).

[scratt]

Neither our Wii, nor our PS2 requires that.
The 360 only requires it because of Live.
As for the PS3, as soon as you can rip and burn BluRay cost effectively that's a done deal also.

For the record I buy original PS3 games, and will continue to do so.. The reasons being I don't begrudge the money as I am not being ripped off on Live anymore.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Koodari ... do not accommodate full-size games yet. Maybe in next console iteration.None of the console manufacturers have tried GameTap type pricing yet, as far as I know.

Mostly true on both counts (see Luca's comments), but it's a start.

You quoted two different things, but I assume you are referring to the pipeline from mods to commercial games. I said it has now become routine on the PC. I'd be somewhat surprised if there was a game in production now that has picked up its initial popularity as a mod on a console, seeing how recent console support for mods is and how little it has spread. The only instance I know of where you are actually able to drop in your own total conversion and play is UT3 on PS3. It's still somewhat limited vs the PC version, AFAIK you can't load your own sound assets at all. I'm just saying it hasn't caught fire in the console market yet (or I haven't heard of it), not that the consoles can't do this.

Fair enough.

And no, the consoles aren't PC's before you can run actual code on them, and sell a commercial game without Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft having a say. They are locked, absolutely.

I could swear games are actual code... just sayin'. Hardware wise, they're a pretty kick-ass computer. Most hardcore games on the PC are, IME, full-screen take-over-the-computer style experiences. They don't run in windows with chat and everything else, like a browser window, they are immersive. They essentially turn your PC into a gaming appliance while you're running them... I don't see how this experience is, to the user, that different than a console. I should have said "A console is little different than a gaming PC, while gaming, to the user." Better?

Your point about the distribution mechanism is valid, however.

I don't consider having a hardware edge over consoles to be critical for PC gaming's success.

They're quickly losing other advantages, but that wasn't really my point.

I see no "point" whatsoever in hardware advances in a vacuum.

The point was:
The majority demographic (not majority of users) of the hardcore gamer market is shifting to consoles. I don't see this reversing.
The hardcore PC gamer market is shrinking, as a percentage of the overall computing market as measured in users.
The demographics of gaming on PCs is shifting slowly but methodically towards the casual gamer.
The casual gamer's needs are fulfilled by a consumer-level mainstream computer.
The hardcore PC gamer market no longer has as much of, and will in the future have *less* of, an impact on mainstream computers available for sale.
The hardcore gamer market demands expandable, ever-tweakable and upgradeable boxes.
Historically, that demand has been one of the main forces driving the form factor ubiquitous in the PC market, as well as insanely powerful graphics hardware.
Moving forward, that demand will be a smaller and smaller voice.
Hence, the common form factor today isn't going to have nearly as much reason to exist in the future - the market won't be there.
Furthermore, the very rational reasons that generated that form factor and demand in the first place simply aren't going to hold for most users.

Because the driving market for an upgradeable box won't be there, and because the reasons for it in general are dwindling, and because the mainstream user views a computer more as an appliance, and because Apple *excels* at making such devices... why do you think they 'need' to produce an xMac? Don't get me wrong, it's the device I'd almost certainly buy, but I'm not a mainstream user, and I'm outlining why I think we won't see one from Apple anytime soon... not that I'm arguing one shouldn't be made to satisfy my own desires. (See Luca? You split the thread too soon. TOO SOOOOOOOOON!)

FWIW, I think the graphics industry has a bright and profitable future in computation co-processors - the power available on current GPUs is astounding, and GPGP is just getting started, IMO. But... that's a pro level use, so a Mac Pro with slots fits that need.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Luca Simple. Consoles require a modchip to run burned games. PCs don't (you don't even have to burn the game, just run it from a disk image).

You mean you have to upgrade the console? Sounds kinda like tweaking to me... What's next, overclocking?

[Koodari]

Originally Posted by Luca Actually they do. Not sure about PSN, but Xbox Live has full (original) Xbox games available for download. I know Ninja Gaiden Black is one of them, and Ikaruga is another (even though Ikaruga was original for GameCube). They're not expensive and you just play them locally on the hard drive.

These only go up to 4+ gigs. What I meant was that they don't offer you Halo 3 or Haze as a download, whereas (as you're aware) one can d/l Valve's greatest and latest from Steam.

[Luca]

Originally Posted by Kickaha You mean you have to upgrade the console? Sounds kinda like tweaking to me... What's next, overclocking?

Those are totally different things. Installing a modchip voids your warranty and allows you to install software that provides extra capabilities that the console never had in the first place (including extra media center functionality and playing games you have backed up to a hard drive). Furthermore, consoles require a hardware modification to play games that don't come on original game discs, whereas PCs only need virtual drive software like Daemon Tools to do so. Upgrading your graphics card, on the other hand, simply improves performance in things you were already able to do (like play games), and it's allowed under most warranties.

Lastly, consoles do not require any sort of modifications or upgrades like overclocking because it simply doesn't help them at all. I've heard it's possible to upgrade the RAM in an original Xbox, but it doesn't actually help because none of the games make use of that RAM. The whole appeal of a console vs. a PC is that it's a standardized hardware platform where everyone has the same configuration and doesn't have to worry about upgrading hardware every year or two. It makes development and testing easier and it requires less ongoing expenses than a PC. Modifications serve only to make the console more convenient, not more powerful.

[Eugene]

Consoles are just as 'dead' as PCs. ALL apps, not just games will be distributed and loaded via the net in the not so distant future. What PCs have going for it is flexibility. Console makers and traditional media juggernauts like cablecos are going to want you to access everything their way.

[Luca]

Originally Posted by Eugene Consoles are just as 'dead' as PCs. ALL apps, not just games will be distributed and loaded via the net in the not so distant future. What PCs have going for it is flexibility. Console makers and traditional media juggernauts like cablecos are going to want you to access everything their way.

Good point. Digital distribution is in the future for all platforms, but at least on the PC you have some choice of which ones to use (and which ones to avoid). Steam is great in that it doesn't tie your downloads to a specific computer, only to your account, and you keep them for life. Downloaded games on consoles, though, are a concern. What happens next generation? Do you have to re-buy all your old games AGAIN?

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Koodari These only go up to 4+ gigs. What I meant was that they don't offer you Halo 3 or Haze as a download, whereas (as you're aware) one can d/l Valve's greatest and latest from Steam.

You can download some full retail PS3 games, such as Warhawk and Gran Turismo 5 Prologue, from the PlayStation Network.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Luca Those are totally different things.

Luca, I think your sarcasmometer is broken, you may want to have it checked...

[scratt]

I think with things like the crossover between 360s and PCs, and their development tools, as well as the Linux distros on the PS3 it's all converging.

As Eugene says it will all come from the cloud eventually.

Right now it is a race for the sitting room media box..

Yeah, geeks will tweak with PCs, but that's more esoteric then modding a console IMHO.

The big crossover is going to come with movies and games converging, a cohesive pipe into the home, and one or two 'box' manufacturers...

Then I guess the whole thing will start all over again.. Just like it did when we went from Binatone tv games, to 8 bit console / computers, and then to 16 bit.. And so on.

The one thing we have to look forward to is engine and SDKs becoming more and more cross platform, and eventually the 'platform' becoming irrelevant.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Luca Good point. Digital distribution is in the future for all platforms, but at least on the PC you have some choice of which ones to use (and which ones to avoid). Steam is great in that it doesn't tie your downloads to a specific computer, only to your account, and you keep them for life. Downloaded games on consoles, though, are a concern. What happens next generation? Do you have to re-buy all your old games AGAIN?

Isn't this the same question with physical discs? It's a matter of whether the manufacturer decides to offer backwards compatibility, and allow for a data transfer mechanism.

Imagine if the PS2 hadn't had PS1 compatibility, and Sony had said "Just buy the PS2 versions of the same games." Yes, it would be asshattery of the highest order, but it's the same question: Will your old games be playable on the new system?

I guess we'll find out in 3-5 years.

[torifile]

I never used to game until I got my first "next gen" console last year. Why not? I hated trying to get my computer *just so* so that the game would run smoothly. It was a frustrating experience. And my "relaxation" time should not be spent fight with drivers and all that jazz to get the game running smoothly.

Since getting my console(s), I've been playing much more regularly, and more importantly, I've been enjoying it more. I'm good with computers. I can figure the shit out I needed to do to get things working right - that was never the problem. It just never made sense for me to do it.

What does this little anecdote have to do with the matter at hand? I'm sure that I'm well above average WRT to lay computer people and their knowledge of computer arcana. As consoles continue to get more and more capable of running PC-level graphics and home theater setups and displays get closer to what computers have been capable of, people are going to continue buying more games.

The console market is booming right now. It's not that the PC market is dying so much as being vastly overshadowed by the consoles. I'd be interested in seeing some NPD numbers on games sales. I did a quick and dirty analysis of this stuff a while back (in all the "Apple needs a gaming computer!!!!" discussion). I'll see if I can find some up to date figures.

[Kickaha]

Please do.

I think Apple's basic strategy is: Let the box makers + MS duke it out with the console makers for the l33t gamer market. They're entrenched, the entry investment is too large for the return, and hey, if Dell, HP, etc want to spend resources on fighting tooth and claw for that segment, let 'em... it means they have less attention to devote to the mainstream market, where Apple has the opportunity to make serious headway.

[torifile]

I just did a quick search on games sales for 2007. Still looking for trend lines, but these results are staggering:

Software sales: PC - $911 million; Consoles - $6.6 billion

Top 10 titles - Console

1. Halo 3 (Bungie, Microsoft Game Studios, X360) - 4.82 million
2. Wii Play with Wii Remote (Nintendo, Wii) - 4.12 million
3. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (Infinity Ward, Activision, X360) - 3.04 million
4. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (Neversoft, Activision, PS2) - 2.72 million
5. Super Mario Galaxy (Nintendo EAD Tokyo, Nintendo, Wii) - 2.52 million
6. Pokemon Diamond Version (Game Freak, Nintendo, NDS) - 2.48 million
7. Madden NFL 08 (EA Sports, Electronic Arts, PS2) - 1.90 million
8. Guitar Hero II (Harmonix, Activision, PS2) - 1.89 million
9. Assassin's Creed (Ubisoft Montreal, Ubisoft, X360) - 1.87 million
10. Mario Party 8 (Hudson Soft, Wii) - 1.82 million

Top 10 titles - PC

1. World of Warcraft: Burning Crusade (Blizzard Entertainment) - 2.25 million
2. World of Warcraft (Blizzard Entertainment) - 914,000
3. The Sims 2 Seasons Expansion Pack (EA Maxis) - 433,000
4. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (Infinity Ward) 383,000
5. Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars (EA Los Angeles) - 343,000
6. Sim City 4 Deluxe (Maxis) - 284,000
7. The Sims 2 (Maxis) - 281,000
8. The Sims 2 Bon Voyage Expansion Pack (Maxis) - 271,000
9. Age of Empires III (Ensemble Studios) - 259,000
10. The Sims 2 Pets Expansion Pack (Maxis) - 236,000

[Luca]

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of Nintendo's virtual console. Say you buy Mario 3 now. Then three years later, the Nintendo WiiWii comes out and then what—do you have to buy Mario 3 again if you want to keep playing?

I think the console makers will try to avoid this issue entirely by simply releasing new versions of popular games. So when the Xbox 720 comes out, you won't be able to buy or play "Geometry Wars: Retro Advanced" anymore, you'll buy a new game in the Geometry Wars series and you'll have to pay again because it's a new version. The only issue is with older games that already came out. It would be kind of unfortunate if they broke compatibility with older releases like Nintendo's VC titles or even the original Xbox games available on XBL.

[Xaqtly]

Well for me the PC vs. Console issue really comes down to the control scheme. Anything resembling an FPS (CoD4, Bioshock, UT3 etc.) needs to be played with a mouse and keyboard, for me anyway. Games in other genres (Ratchet and Clank... OMG FUN) were designed for consoles and play very well that way. The Wii is special because obviously some of the games on it really couldn't be played any other way.

My opinion is that if you game exclusively either on PC or on a console, you're missing out. I don't like playing racing games on PC, I'd much rather play them on a console. I'd rather play FPS games on PC. If you just love gaming like I do, then it makes sense to have as many options as possible.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by torifile I just did a quick search on games sales for 2007. Still looking for trend lines, but these results are staggering: Software sales: PC - $911 million; Consoles - $6.6 billion

Bing bing bing!

Let's break down the following a little into Casual gaming (C) and non-casual gaming (NC) (and yes, complain about the sorting all you want, this is totally outta my rectum, admittedly - I'm using photorealism as a gross benchmark, since that's a primary driver of hardware advances)...

Top 10 titles - Console (NC) Halo 3 (Bungie, Microsoft Game Studios, X360) - 4.82 million (C)) Wii Play with Wii Remote (Nintendo, Wii) - 4.12 million (NC) Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (Infinity Ward, Activision, X360) - 3.04 million (C) Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (Neversoft, Activision, PS2) - 2.72 million (C) Super Mario Galaxy (Nintendo EAD Tokyo, Nintendo, Wii) - 2.52 million (C) Pokemon Diamond Version (Game Freak, Nintendo, NDS) - 2.48 million (C) Madden NFL 08 (EA Sports, Electronic Arts, PS2) - 1.90 million (C) Guitar Hero II (Harmonix, Activision, PS2) - 1.89 million (NC) Assassin's Creed (Ubisoft Montreal, Ubisoft, X360) - 1.87 million (C) Mario Party 8 (Hudson Soft, Wii) - 1.82 million Top 10 titles - PC (C) World of Warcraft: Burning Crusade (Blizzard Entertainment) - 2.25 million (C) World of Warcraft (Blizzard Entertainment) - 914,000 (C) The Sims 2 Seasons Expansion Pack (EA Maxis) - 433,000 (NC) Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (Infinity Ward) 383,000 (NC) Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars (EA Los Angeles) - 343,000 (C) Sim City 4 Deluxe (Maxis) - 284,000 (C) The Sims 2 (Maxis) - 281,000 (C) The Sims 2 Bon Voyage Expansion Pack (Maxis) - 271,000 (C) Age of Empires III (Ensemble Studios) - 259,000 (C) The Sims 2 Pets Expansion Pack (Maxis) - 236,000

Hmm... seeing a pattern here... for one thing CoD4 on the 360 outsells the PC version 8:1. NC on the PC doesn't even come close to making the top 10 overall. C is dominating PC gaming... and kinda kicking butt on the consoles as well, but not dominating. (The Wii Play sales are almost totally for the included nunchuk - it gets you a hard to find nunchuk, and the game is a <$10 add on. I don't even really count it, myself...)