[Messiahtosh]

Is there anything like MS Access for the Mac? One of my courses has a lab requiring the use of MS Access, and that app does not come with Office for the Mac. Anything that works with Access or just like it, on the Mac?

[alcimedes]

Well, there's FileMaker Pro, which is about 100 times better than Access, but it won't work with Access how they require I would be willing to bet.

[Messiahtosh]

Geez, why are we using Crapcess then?

[LoCash]

Originally Posted by Messiahtosh Geez, why are we using Crapcess then?

Because a large portion of the real world uses Access. Sadly.

[jimdad]

Actually in our school most departments use Filemaker. I suppose even PC users know a lemon when they see one. I've tried to get into it but it can't hold a candle to F/maker.

[autodata]

You're at an enlightened school. Access all the way at my big 10 university. The rationale is that it means less software to support.

[alcimedes]

Our school uses Access because we got it "free" with our giant fuckwastage of cash that was the Microsoft Campus Agreement. Most of the time, Filemaker is both a better and more versitile database program.

I've heard on occasion that some extremely large databases (Read hundreds of thousands of records) work better in Access. The largest databases I've worked with on a consistant basis were around 60,000 - 120,000 records and worked just peachy in Filemaker.

If you go online and read comparisons of the two, most find FileMaker to be the better of the two.

In my real world experience, the only people I've found who think Access is a good database program have never used anything else.

[Koodari]

I have used Oracle for a small school project (a bug database with web frontend), installed and skimmed MySQL, seen PostgreSQL used by a friend in personal hobby websites, no other experience so my knowledge of databases is limited indeed.

If I understand correctly, Access and Filemaker are light databases with a more flexible, directly manipulated and customized, user-friendly UI than is supplied with heavyweight databases like the various SQL's.

Is this indeed the difference? Which kind of jobs are best done with either type?

[Koodari]

Originally Posted by LoCash Because a large portion of the real world uses Access. Sadly.

If a school makes decisions based on that, IMO time to find another school. I'm not commenting on Access vs Filemaker because I have no clue of either, but my school teaches concepts and ways of problem solving, not specific tools. A lot of the time, you are free to choose your tools, and a lot of the time you are expected to learn them by yourself - because the tool is usually not hard, the job is. If you're competent, you should be able to learn a new tool in a couple weeks max.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Koodari Originally Posted by LoCash Because a large portion of the real world uses Access. Sadly. If a school makes decisions based on that, IMO time to find another school.

And why do you think most schools are teaching C (and its variants) as opposed to LOGO? Or BASIC? Or Fortran? Because C (C++, Visual C, C#, etc) is widely used in today's industry. If you are studying some technical class like computer science, it only makes perfect sense to teach what the world uses. Yes, there's always room for advanced theory that can apply to many different languages, but at least in the beginning (where M'tosh is) lessons will focus on one specific target for simplicity sake.

This is how it's done at my school and many others. Yes, theory then application would be nice, but a lot of people like to (read: need to) get actual programming experience first-hand before they can advance far.

[Messiahtosh]

If anyone was curious, here's my assignment, having never used a database app in my life. I'm thinking it will be slightly difficult. Hopefully not that bad?

Database Introduction and Design Using Microsoft Access Lab

You are the owner of a local small town “brick and mortar” music store. You have noticed that more and more of your customers are using Amazon and other online music stores instead of shopping at your store. When you ask a close friend in the IT/E-business field why he thinks this is the case, he replies that any combination of factors could play a part in your loss of customers. He goes on to explain that online stores are popular because they track customer purchases and unique customer data that in turn will provide the customer with a customized view of products and services, based on individual interest areas. This provides a convenience not always found at traditional brick and mortar shops.

He suggests providing some of the individual customization that these online stores provide through the proper design, development and implementation of a database management system (DBMS). This DBMS will help to manage customer information, get to know your customers, their interests and buying habits, and in turn provide a more personalized experience for your local customers.

Your job is to create a database that is set up to track customer data. Ultimately it is up to you to include whatever fields you wish, but your friend has provided you with some suggestions. You are expected to include personal contact information about your customers, their credit card numbers and a pin number/password (for call in orders and convenience), what they purchased, when they made a purchase, when they became a customer, their interests, and a field to enter miscellaneous notes.

The way you design and develop the database to organize the data is entirely up to you, but it should be easily manageable.

This lab activity is used to have you demonstrate your ability to successfully design and develop a fully functional database using Microsoft Access as a database design tool. Because of the nature of this activity, we would suggest that you create fictitious names and information.

You will also present a small essay (1-2 pages) in which you explain how this database design will help to address the problems faced by your friends store.


Objectives

The students will be able to:

• Analyze the use of a database to solve a specific problem.
• Develop and justify the database structure developed.


Assignment

To complete this Lab Activity you need to:

1. Create a database to track customer data (include personal contact information
about your customers, their credit card numbers and a pin number/password for
call in orders and convenience, what they purchased, when they made a
purchase, when they became a customer, their interests, and a field to enter
miscellaneous notes). Create fictitious names and information and avoid
using any real data or credit card numbers.

2. Demonstrate your ability to use Microsoft Access by incorporating the skills
identified in the Lab Rubric.

3. Save your database according to the naming conventions provided in
the prior instructions. In other words if your Penn State Access ID is ABC101, your
document will be named ABC101_lab4.mdb.

4. Upload the completed database into the appropriate Drop Box in the Course
Communication Space. Locate the appropriate Drop Box by consulting the Syllabus to identify the week in which the assignment is due, and navigating to that Week Folder from the Lessons Tab in Angel. (See syllabus)

5. Develop a 1-2 page Word essay explaining the logic behind your database design. Upload this essay to the appropriate Angel drop box. (See syllabus)


Lab Activity Help

1. The Microsoft Access 2000/XP section of your Microsoft Office 2000/XP optional text.
2. The online tutorials provided through http://cac.psu.edu/training

Assessment

Consult the Access Skills Lab Rubric for exact grading criteria.

Important Points

• Be sure that you have added field comments describing the purpose of each field, and the allowable values for categorical fields.
• Be sure to adjust field types and sizes appropriately- and logically.
• Be sure your reports are driven by queries - not by tables alone.
• Be sure that your form(s), querie(s) and report(s) make logical sense.
• Be sure that the data you enter is adequate to test the logic of your querie(s) and report(s)
• If we have any questions, we may ask you to see us and explain the logic behind your design.
• Do not leave any extraneous Access objects in your database file - if you do you will lose points.
• It is perfectly OK to have a multi-table solution.


Database Introduction and Design Using Microsoft Access
Lab Rubric

Checklist Possible Points Points Scored

Create for use at least one Table and define the fields, listed below

o Personal contact information about your customers
o First Name
o Last Name
o Middle Initial
o Address 1
o Address 2
o Home Phone
o Work Phone
o Mobile Phone
o Fax Number
o Email 1
o Email 2
o Include at least eight additional fields of your chose (i.e.,
purchases they have made, when they make purchases,
how they paid ‘cash or credit,’ date of last purchase, date
of first purchase, when they became a customer, their
interests, buying habits, a field for miscellaneous notes,
occupation, family members etc.)

11 pts

Assigned a Primary Key 2 pts

Populated Database with Useful Fictitious Information
(Minimum 20 records) 4 pts

Design View – field comments, field sizes and types appropriate for use. 5 pts

Generate one query (for use with your report) 5 pts

Generate one data entry form 4 pts

Generate one report (from your query) 5 pts

Generate one mailing labels report 4 pts

Essay justifying design and explaining how it will solve information problem 10 pts

Total 50 Pts

[Brad]

Moving to Third-Party Products, btw.

[alcimedes]

i could probably whip this up in a few hours using FileMaker.

of course, there are a few dozen templates already available that would do it too.

in any case, good luck doing this with Access.

[torifile]

Originally Posted by alcimedes i could probably whip this up in a few hours using FileMaker. of course, there are a few dozen templates already available that would do it too. in any case, good luck doing this with Access.

That would actually take about 30 minutes in FM7. Making it pretty would take a bit longer but that's a nice simple project.

[autodata]

Is that a final or mid-term?

[FFL]

I'm sure I could use FileMaker to create such a database with a wonderful user interface, including a main navigation layout with scripted buttons, customized search layouts, mailing and shipping label layouts, and a help screen, and then bind it as a Windows runtime using FMP Developer for Windows on VirtualPC, and burn it on a CD that could be installed on a Windows machine, faster than I could create something very basic that looked like crap, in Access.

It would be fun to see the look on the professor's face, even if it took an extra half hour or so.

[Messiahtosh]

Originally Posted by autodata Is that a final or mid-term?

It's just a weekly lab for IST.

[Messiahtosh]

FFL, I do not even begin to understand how one would do all of that.

[FFL]

Originally Posted by Messiahtosh FFL, I do not even begin to understand how one would do all of that.

Up to the runtime Windows version, it's all pretty simple with the standard version of FileMaker. That wouldn't do you much good unless a computer at school had FileMaker on it, though.

[torifile]

Originally Posted by FFL Up to the runtime Windows version, it's all pretty simple with the standard version of FileMaker. That wouldn't do you much good unless a computer at school had FileMaker on it, though.

There's always Instant Web Publishing. It works reasonably well.

[Koodari]

Originally Posted by Brad And why do you think most schools are teaching C (and its variants) as opposed to LOGO? Or BASIC? Or Fortran? Because C (C++, Visual C, C#, etc) is widely used in today's industry. If you are studying some technical class like computer science, it only makes perfect sense to teach what the world uses. Yes, there's always room for advanced theory that can apply to many different languages, but at least in the beginning (where M'tosh is) lessons will focus on one specific target for simplicity sake. This is how it's done at my school and many others. Yes, theory then application would be nice, but a lot of people like to (read: need to) get actual programming experience first-hand before they can advance far.

Yes, people need hands-on programming experience to develop, and you can't learn programming from a book. Precisely for simplicity's sake, I'd offer that experience with a language and environment that have good characteristics for teaching. There's nothing wrong with eventually teaching the most common production languages, but they are not clean and simple, they tend to be very general-purpose and have large libraries, and that's why I think they are bad first languages.

If it was me teaching, I'd start with a Lisp variant and a simple assembler ran in a simulator. Then C, then a scripting language, build tools and bigger projects, then other languages. This is assuming you are going to be an actual programmer, and you'll have more than a few programming courses. If programming is just an extra subject and can be cut off any time, then I'd go with pure Java or whatever you think you need most at work.

At my school things start off with Scheme, then C, Pascal, assembler, Java, build tools in about two year time span. I disagree with many things about the teaching but the choice of languages is pretty good.

[autodata]

Originally Posted by Messiahtosh It's just a weekly lab for IST.

Good, because the university I work for has a ~3 hour employee class for $60 (typically paid for by the department) that teach everything that assignment includes and then some, without the contrived context and busywork essay.

And that assignment is ridiculously easy since everything it's asking you to do is built into access with wizards. IMO, kids shouldn't be taking classes to learn how to click through wizards, they should be reading Meno, finding out about emission and absorption spectrums or watching Godard.

Apparently the inclusion of the essay is designed to partially justify what they're teaching you since it has no place in a college class. You might as well take a class called "The Menus of Microsoft Word." Seriously. A class like that is offered here for employees along with the access class.

[thuh Freak]

Originally Posted by Koodari If I understand correctly, Access and Filemaker are light databases with a more flexible, directly manipulated and customized, user-friendly UI than is supplied with heavyweight databases like the various SQL's.

yes. in theory, access and the like are used for small jobs, where you won't get too many records. the various sql server deals are for big jobs, where you will likely get a lot of action. except of course when it comes to elections. then ms access is just fine and dandy. because its not like we had a lot of people who were going to vote.

[bassplayinMacFiend]

Originally Posted by autodata Good, because the university I work for has a ~3 hour employee class for $60 (typically paid for by the department) that teach everything that assignment includes and then some, without the contrived context and busywork essay. And that assignment is ridiculously easy since everything it's asking you to do is built into access with wizards. IMO, kids shouldn't be taking classes to learn how to click through wizards, they should be reading Meno, finding out about emission and absorption spectrums or watching Godard. Apparently the inclusion of the essay is designed to partially justify what they're teaching you since it has no place in a college class. You might as well take a class called "The Menus of Microsoft Word." Seriously. A class like that is offered here for employees along with the access class.

The thing that blows me away is that nowhere in this assignment do I see any kind of discussion of database creation methods (i.e. Entity-Relationship vs. Semantic Object Modeling) or any kind of requirement to actually break down the data elements down to the 3rd normal form (at the very least).

M'tosh, just looking at your assignment and it says "It is perfectly OK to have a multi-table solution." Like, duh?!? I mean, I see a person, a stock item and an order. To me that's at least 3 tables!

Nowhere in your assignment do I see anything stressing the importance of proper database construction, or grading you on your ability to remove transitive keys or anything. Wow, just wow.

Again, It's OK to use more than one table?!?

Whoa, I just looked at your assignment again. You're doing this at Penn State? Methinks they need a new database design instructor pronto.

Unless of course the teacher plans to take what you hand in and totally destroy every one of his/her students' databases then show you the light of SOM or something.

[Messiahtosh]

This is a freshman course and yes, the professor gave a 3 hour lecture on databases and proper database organization.

[torifile]

Originally Posted by Messiahtosh This is a freshman course and yes, the professor gave a 3 hour lecture on databases and proper database organization.

What class is it?

[bassplayinMacFiend]

Originally Posted by Messiahtosh This is a freshman course and yes, the professor gave a 3 hour lecture on databases and proper database organization.

So if your teacher asks you if your database is in Boyce-Codd Normal Form you can say yes (or no) and explain how you came to that conclusion?