[Robo]

So it started in Christmas 2008. My brother had just broken up with his girlfriend, and she kept her nice projector, and meanwhile across the country I was escaping Las Vegas and I couldn't really take my HDTV with me, and didn't really want to, anyway. So I told my brother I would send it to him for Christmas. It was sort of a big gift but I thought he could use some cheering up. But the problem was, I didn't have time to send it to him before I left. So I asked my dad how much money he wanted to send it and gave it to him, no questions asked. I don't trust my dad, since he was losing our house to gambling debts at the time, but I guess I didn't think he'd be so low as to hold a Christmas present hostage.

But, alas. I had barely landed in Portland when my dad told me he needed a lot more money to send it. I asked if he could provide some sort of proof, but he said no. I told him that I gave him exactly how much he asked for and that, if he really didn't ask for enough, that wasn't really my problem anyway, and I wouldn't send him anything more without some sort of proof. I guess that sounds mean but I didn't want to enable his gambling addiction. So in the end, he kept both the TV and the rather substantial amount of money I had given him to deliver it, and my brother never got his TV. I felt really guilty about that, so I was determined to make it up to him. (Plus, he's playing his PS3 on an ancient tube. Nobody deserves that.)

He started smoking again during the aforementioned breakup. I don't like that he smokes because I don't want him to die because of something so silly. (I hope I don't offend anyone, but in my experience even smokers realize it's silly.) He flew out to see us for Christmas 2009, so I couldn't really give him a TV then, but we made plans that I would see him for Spring Break. He said his 2010 resolution was going to be to quit smoking, which made me happy. To encourage him, I told him that if he was smoke-free by Spring Break I would buy him a TV then. (In the interest of fairness, I also told my mom that I would buy her a TV if she quit Pepsi, ha ha.)

So. I fly out there in two days. He hasn't quit smoking (yet?) but I know that he is still expecting a TV. I know this because the other day he called me. Now, I've tried my best to gently "encourage" him to quit all year, and finally about a month ago I told him that he would need to be smoke-free all March to get the TV. I didn't want him to just not smoke around me the few days I am there, get a TV, and then go back to smoking again as soon as I left. I wanted him to really, y'know, quit.

Apparently my encouraging was too gentle. He's expecting a TV, and then he calls me the other day and asks, hey, instead of the TV could I just give him cash? He says that it would be more practical, though not without good reason. He and his girlfriend both just got new jobs after weeks (months?) of unemployment, and they're basically going to need another car now, so they do need cash more than a TV. But the thing is, in my book the best gifts aren't supposed to be things you were going to buy for yourself anyway. They're things that you really want but would never actually get for yourself, hence that it's nice that some thoughtful person gets them for you! It's not like I give impractical trinkets, I just like wowing people. It's not like he would go, "Wow, my brother paid for a very small percentage of this car!" whenever he drove it. It's like you're giving someone a quantity on a spreadsheet. Maybe that's selfish, like I'm sort of buying the gift for the experience of giving it. But I don't think it is. If I look at my own life, I don't need help getting the things I would get anyway. It's all the things that I would love to have, but would never actually buy for myself, that I'm secretly hoping are in my wrapped boxes. That shows real thought, y'know?

So anyway, I'm sort of annoyed. It's not just that I want to get him something fun and he wants cash. (This always seems to happen, with him. "Hey, can you just give me the cash instead? I really need it." And apparently the car his girlfriend wants is a 2008 Dodge Charger. First of all, ew, and second of all, he's going to tell me that I should give him cash, because that's more practical, and then use that cash to buy a full-size muscle car?) But it's also that he's sort of expecting it, like I owe it to him or something, even though he hasn't quit smoking.

So I guess my question is, what should I do? Give him the TV? Give him cash? Give him nothing? I don't want him to be mad at me or anything. I don't want this to turn into some sort of thing between us.

Thanks for reading. I just don't know what to do.

[psmith2.0]

Jeez, Robo...you're surrounded, aren't you? Bless your heart...

I don't know. He sounds like he doesn't have his head on quite straight, and his priorities aren't exactly in order.

Honestly, reading all that, I think I'd send him a pack of gum (Nicorette?) and say "be grateful".



PS - There was only one really cool Dodge Charger, BTW. And assuming your Dad's last name isn't "Duke" and he's not fightin' the system and running moonshine, he's kinda pissing up a tree on the car thing.

[Brad]

A gift isn't a gift if there are expectations or strings attached.

2¢

I'm with Paul on this one.

[thegeriatric]

I think you need to be firm on this one.

I also agree with Paul and Brad.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Jeez, Robo...you're surrounded, aren't you? Bless your heart... I don't know. He sounds like he doesn't have his head on quite straight, and his priorities aren't exactly in order. Honestly, reading all that, I think I'd send him a pack of gum and say "be grateful".

Now I feel like a whiner. I know I shouldn't post this stuff here, I just don't really have anyone else to talk to.

I don't know. My resolution this year was to be more assertive and less afraid of people. I know I probably should just tell him "Dude, you didn't quit smoking, even though I very clearly told you that was the deal." But at the same time, I do feel like I sort of owe him a TV, because of all that. Not money, but a TV.

I'm sure someone is going to tell me that I should have just never gotten involved. That's probably true. But the thing is, he's the older brother, and it's not like he ever hesitates to tell me what I should do or think. He's apparently made it his mission to re-unite me and my dad, even though I've told him that he really doesn't know everything that went on and he shouldn't get involved. (I'm a little worried that he's planning to spring some "surprise re-union" on us in Minnesota. I would never trust him again.)

I just, Idunno. He told me, a few weeks ago, that my dad finally sold that TV and sent him the money, so I shouldn't feel bad about that right? But then again, he could have just been lying to get me to like my dad more. I don't know. It's complicated.

Sorry for posting this crap here

[psmith2.0]

Don't be. I didn't mean it that way. I kinda feel bad for you. You seem like a good egg, and you're surrounded by some...special people.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Brad A gift isn't a gift if there are expectations or strings attached.

That's true. It's not really a gift. It's more of a bribe, I suppose, and so it would be more effective if I just gave him what he wants (cash). But at the same time, he hasn't done what I'm bribing him for. So...he gets nothing.

Geez, how about he quits smoking because his family loves him and doesn't want him to, uh, die?

[Noel]

Originally Posted by Roboman I know I probably should just tell him "Dude, you didn't quit smoking, even though I very clearly told you that was the deal." But at the same time, I do feel like I sort of owe him a TV, because of all that. Not money, but a TV.

You should just tell him that because you don't owe him anything, if he hasn't stopped smoking. And it's not like you have piles of cash and buying a TV is no big deal for you: make this clear to him. His health is that important to you, but you can't afford to give him a TV just because you care about him.

[thegeriatric]

Originally Posted by Roboman Now I feel like a whiner. I know I shouldn't post this stuff here, I just don't really have anyone else to talk to. I don't know. My resolution this year was to be more assertive and less afraid of people. I know I probably should just tell him "Dude, you didn't quit smoking, even though I very clearly told you that was the deal." But at the same time, I do feel like I sort of owe him a TV, because of all that. Not money, but a TV. I'm sure someone is going to tell me that I should have just never gotten involved. That's probably true. But the thing is, he's the older brother, and it's not like he ever hesitates to tell me what I should do or think. He's apparently made it his mission to re-unite me and my dad, even though I've told him that he really doesn't know everything that went on and he shouldn't get involved. (I'm a little worried that he's planning to spring some "surprise re-union" on us in Minnesota. I would never trust him again.) I just, Idunno. He told me, a few weeks ago, that my dad finally sold that TV and sent him the money, so I shouldn't feel bad about that right? But then again, he could have just been lying to get me to like my dad more. I don't know. It's complicated. Sorry for posting this crap here

Nobody said you shouldn't post this stuff here, we're all friends here. Right? And if you can't get something off your chest by asking friends for help, then it'd be a shame.

Robo, what ever you decide to do, you need to be comfortable with your decision. I hope you can sort this out without too much aggro. I think your resolution for this year may well apply to this situation.

[Foj]

I have an idea that might work. Perhaps you could string out the money. Use it as an incentive for him to quit smoking?? Is that something that you could do and not weigh down your conscious??

[RowdyScot]

Mind you, I'm a dick. I'd send the pack of Nicorette, two pennies, and a note. The two pennies are the start of what's coming to him if he has the balls to go through with his end of the deal.

[Capella]

I wish someone as wonderful as you wasn't going through so much stuff. You're not a whiner, and you should always post here and tell us about it when you need somone. And if you don't want to post openly, I'm sure there's many of us who would say "PM me if you don't want it open. I'm here."

If someone's expecting something- like he's expecting the TV- then imho he doesn't deserve it. He hasn't lived up to trying to stop smoking, so you don't owe him anything. And you don't owe him bailing him out of his problems, which helping with a car would be. I think your intent behind giving gifts is the right one, even when the person is in a situation where they might need cash or the basic assistance more: you care and you want to give them something they might not be able to get themselves right that moment, for whatever reason. And I don't think it's wrong of you to be thinking that no, you shouldn't send him cash right now. And no, he doesn't deserve a TV. And if he gives you crap, then that's his fault, and not yours, and don't think less of you.

[jdcfsu]

Originally Posted by Roboman I just, Idunno. He told me, a few weeks ago, that my dad finally sold that TV and sent him the money, so I shouldn't feel bad about that right? But then again, he could have just been lying to get me to like my dad more. I don't know. It's complicated.

In that case, the original "deal" for the tv was completed so don't feel like you're obligated to anything. If he was lying to try and save your father some face, well that's his issue.

I'd be straight with him before you go because you don't want it to cloud your trip. And like geriatric said, no matter what your decision is, be confident in it and do what makes the most sense to YOU and not your brother.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by RowdyScot Mind you, I'm a dick. I'd send the pack of Nicorette, two pennies, and a note. The two pennies are the start of what's coming to him if he has the balls to go through with his end of the deal.

Brilliant.

[addabox]

OK, here's something I know: in certain families there is often a designated person that is expected to keep the peace, be the go-between, cover the action, overlook the nonsense and keep coming back for more.

I'm not saying it's good or bad; it's just how it is. But: that person often grows up with a better sense of what other people need than what they need. In fact, such people often feel acutely guilty for even considering their own needs before those of their family. And almost anything seems like it would be better than rocking the boat and having them be mad at you. Ringing any bells here?

Just hypothetically, then, it would be really good for such a person to start to learn to set limits and stick to his guns. It will feel like being a dick. It is not being a dick. Because the alternative is a kind of sublimated resentment that starts to interfere with all your relationships. If you can't look people in the eye, even family people, and say "Here's what I said I would do, that's what I'm going to do" then you're starting down a path of evasion and dishonesty that casts a very long shadow.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally Posted by addabox Just hypothetically, then, it would be really good for such a person to start to learn to set limits and stick to his guns. It will feel like being a dick. It is not being a dick.

Quoted for laser-precise absoluteyness. Excellent.

[kieran]

If your dad sent him the $$ for the TV, then you're covered. That was your original deal. Nothing else should be expected from you, but from reading your posts over the years, I know better.

I wouldn't give him any money. You held up your part of the deal, and he is still smoking. The deal is off. I would just tell him that. Now, he's just trolling for money because he knows you'll feel guilty about it.

I say this, because I am the same way. There are many issues surrounding my family right now, and I'm usually the one trying to keep the peace, pretty much like you. People come to me because they know I'll end up feeling guilty if I don't help. My brother just did it to me recently and it will probably end up costing me a shit ton of money. Hopefully It's a lesson for me, albeit an expensive one.

Good luck Robo, but I'd agree with everyone else, don't give him anything more. You held up your end of the bargain.

PS- A Challenger? Yuck.

[alcimedes]

So, to cap it all off.

Your dad still has the TV that was supposed to go to your brother. He also kept the money you gave him to ship it?

Your brother you then graciously offered to buy ANOTHER TV for after you heard his new year's resolution, if he kept to it, which he hasn't.

Now, he's asking for equivalent cash value of the reward he didn't earn (because this wasn't a gift)

F that.

Seriously you owe him nothing. If he wants a TV he can ask your dad for the one he kept. If he wants cash he can start saving now or sell the TV that your dad kept that was supposed to be his. Either way, not your problem.

[curiousuburb]

Alci is singing the truth.

Sounds a bit like your family is treating you like a patsy and knows you'll cave in order to keepthepeace/avoidconfrontation/notfeelguilty/whatever.
Everybody somehow expects to be bribed... maybe because there's a precedent?

You can't solve somebody else's addiction... whether it's gambling/nicotine/drugs/whatever.
Fixing it is entirely on them (or it doesn't mean anything).
Incentive is fine, but if you always cave, or they always play you, you're doing more harm than good and arguably facilitating deception both ways.

If you want to demonstrate assertiveness, lay it out clearly and stand your ground. Less drama, more decisiveness.
Since when is the youngest expected to carry everybody else's weight and cut their food for them?

Your older brother and his gf are both finally working again? Great... let them learn budgeting again too.

Tell him to use the 'cash your dad sent' from the promised TV (your 'agreed reward' despite him still smoking and therefore not earning it) however he wants.
Send him a copy of Lemon-Aid or similar Used car guide as a gift... maybe with a Benjamin inside as a bookmark if you feel bad.
If he still wants a penis car way out of his budget, fine... tell him to work extra hours... but you won't be guilt tripped into funding it anymore if he doesn't keep up his end of your deals.

Save your money for getting the hell away from your family. Always with the fecking drama = not good.

[Luca]

I would say don't give any of the jerks in your family anything. Cut off all ties with all of them. That's what I'd do. And when you do, leave all your angst and guilt behind.

Sorry if this hurts, but it's the truth. If they really care about you they'll come back and actually be nice this time.

EDIT: Please believe me, I didn't mean any of this as a slight against you, Robo. I think you're a wonderful guy who is tied to a pretty shitty-sounding family.

[billybobsky]

i don't even know where to begin. first, why promise gifts at all? bating people with conditions for behavioral changes does nothing and ruins what could be a normal stress free interaction. it creates a dependency relationship. it is a terrible idea.

as for the gift. fuck it. you don't owe the fucker anything. on that note, you should demand the money you gave your dad for shipping the old tv back and a reasonable sum for the value of the television at the time you requested he send it. as for what to do with that cash -- open a new bank account and start funneling money from reckless dealings with your family into it. at some point you will get the message that they aren't worth the value and you will dump them. otherwise, you are a glutton for all the shit they give you.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Just to add, "cutting off all ties" doesn't mean "for good and all and no way back ever."

When you're good, you can have whatever kind of relationship you please with them. But I would like to put my weight behind Alcimedes and Luca. You do get to choose. You don't have to carry bags of other people's shit out of obligations that you don't really feel. It really is a relief to put the shitbags down. It really isn't the crisis you expect it to be.

I'll let others more articulate make the case better, but it really isn't dickish behaviour to tell yourself "Actually, no, I'd quite like to be happy."

[addabox]

The trouble being, of course (and I hope I'm not drifting too far into presumptuous armchair psychoanalytics; if so my apologies) is that it's your family that installs (at least initially) your ideas of what makes you happy. So that doing the work to push past that can genuinely feel like working against your own best interests. I might reason that doing injury to the people I love isn't worth whatever selfish ends I might also consider pursuing, no matter how many times everyone tells me that I'm not doing anyone injury and that taking care of myself isn't selfish.

It's always easy to tell someone else to tell the obvious bad actor in the scenario to fuck off, but when you factor in all the commingled threads of history and genetics and and being literally at your parents mercy for the first years of your life, it can feel really complicated and conflicted.

Like I say, I don't mean to go crazy with the bystander diagnostics, it's just the way the OP was worded strongly suggests, to me, that getting quit of it is going to take a shit load of courage and bucking up and backsliding and resolve and recommitment.

I would suggest finding people you can talk to face to face that sort of get this stuff and lean on them heavily to keep reminding you that you're not bad or selfish or mean to say no to your family. Because once it's just you and them everything has a tendency to fall back into familiar patterns, and familiar at the very least can be comfortable.

[Mugge]

Im a bad advice person, Robo. But I agree with the gang; you need to assert yourself. I know it's a pain in the but if it isn't you thing, but it isn't mine either. However, I eventually managed to learn it. Just take it one little step at a time and remember that being firm isn't the same as being a douche.

And if you ever feel sorry for posting something you think came off as whiny, just compensate by posting something funny.



This thread needs a morale booster:


(reposted from lolcat thread)

*posted while sloshed*

[drewprops]

I would give you advice except we've just done the Metallica finale, so to wrap up: you know the right thing to do, the right person to be for this situation, the power is in you little Robo - whatever will you do?


...

[evan]

I'll add another voice to the "be firm, stick to your word" crowd, and best of luck buddy.