[turtle]

So in the presentation Steve made to the city of Cupertino was that they were looking at using their generators as their main power source and using the grid as backup. So this has me considering something of that nature for my home. Why rely on the grid if I don't have to. The biggest thing I run into is that the cost for alternatives are so high it out weighs the value to move off the grid onto something else.

My thing I'm looking at right now is getting a Natural Gas generator to run my home during peak power periods where my bill is twice what is it in off peak periods. Thing is a generator for my home is about $9000 without install and ABT. I've looked at solar, but the tech isn't at a rate than makes it worth it and batteries etc make it less usable for a home in the city. My neighbors just won't like it. Something like this will be much less noticed by my neighbors from the sounds of it. Plus, peak is 11am-10pm during summer months and 7-11am and 5-9pm during the non-summer months. So if I use the generator during those times and maybe just when I *need* a higher load (aside from storms etc) seems it might be usable.

What are the thoughts on this idea? Just wondering. Things I should think of before writing checks etc...

[nikstar101]

Turtle,

I like your idea but without knowing US elec pricing i don't think you will be able to generate electricity on a small scale as cheaply as your grid provider. Or at least i would be very surprised and US elec prices must skyrocket during peak times!! I know it sounds dull but have you worked out how much it will cost to power your home via the generator and what the pay back period is? As $9000 + the cost of natural gas will buy you a lot of elec. I mean in the UK running a 2 bed flat (ok not your house) for £4500 (around $9000) will power my house for 9 years. So i think your payback period is going to be some time, during which you might need to maintain the generator etc or even buy a new one.

Secondly, while i an only a civil engineer and not an electrical, the projects i have worked on with generators always cause a problem. Mainly because most generators are stand-by generators, therefore once the power goes out they turn on and run-up. But having a generator sync with the mains/grid and then take the load is a lot harder, requiring clever electronics (as the 3 phase sine waves need to be in sync before the load is transferred otherwise everything goes bang. And same on the transfer back). Therefore if you do not get this functionality you would have to shut off all the breakers in the house every time you wanted to switch over, which i imagine would be a royal pain in the arse. But then again US generators might be built with these functionalities built in??

Without sounding like a green hippy, which i think my petrol headedness rules out , i would look again at solar but not as a measure to get of the grid but to compliment it. You can get systems that mix and match solar + grid power to run your house and that might be a way of reducing your peak bills (ie the solar might be able to provide 50% of demand during the day with the grid provide the remaining). Other than that i would look at reducing your demand, that is usually far cheaper than changing sources. So highly energy efficient kitchen appliances, TVs, AC etc. These will have a much shorter payback period.

Other than that can you off set the bill by reducing other bills. Such as using solar thermal hot water solutions instead of gas (or maybe elec depending on where you are).

Anyway let us know how it goes.

[Chinney]

I have been pondering a solar-electric supplement for the last few years. The roof of our house has a big space on it that is ideally positioned to take advantage of solar. The costs of solar are supposedly declining. If there were to be be gains in efficiency and further choices in panels (ideally something that would be better integretated with the regular roofing structure) - both things on which research and development are taking place - I will probably bite. That might not be for a few years though, to allow the technology to further develop.

One thing to consider before going into private natural gas generation is that the cost of the gas itself might be quite volitile. It is low now, due to recent finds, but if those finds are matched by significant increased nationwide use, it could quickly go back up. Certainly producers are counting on that. You might want to factor different scenarios for gas prices into your calculations.

[Majost]

My thoughts exactly, nikstar. My electricity runs about 15 cents / kWh (but we don't have peak billing). I found a figure of 3.3 gallons LP per hour for that model. Liquid propane is about $2 a gallon. Let's be generous and say you're burning $5/hr (natural gas can be cheaper). In my region, that's worth 33kW for that entire hour. And that generator can't push that much. I don't know... are the things less efficient when running under max capacity?

Even if you are able to be competitive with the grid, paying back that $10k upfront cost will be brutal.

[Escher]

Here in West Africa, we have a diesel-powered generator the size of a small truck to power our household, including air-conditioning, during the all-too-frequent power outages.

Fueling and maintaining our generator costs many, many times more than electricity from the grid would. The only reason we have the generator, is that for a significant portion of each day, public electricity is simply not available. We simply don't want our frozen food to spoil, and our house to heat up to 35 degrees, for the ever-more-frequent time periods (sometimes 48 hrs) when the country's generating capacity fails its citizens.

Our setup is in no way economical. It's a terribly expensive luxury, which we indulge in because we're accustomed to the reliable utilities of Europe and North America, and are incapable of living without the convenience anymore. However, it makes absolutely no economic or environmental sense.

As many above have said. Think of generating your own electricity as a supplement, not a substitute, for the public grid. You may be able to grow your own vegetables and raise your own chickens. But generating your own power is an entirely different -- and exponentially more difficult -- undertaking. Unless you live in a developing country, or some sort of apocalypse hits the whole world, it is very unlikely ever to be worth the investment of your money, time, and effort.

[Yontsey]

Originally Posted by Majost My thoughts exactly, nikstar. My electricity runs about 15 cents / kWh (but we don't have peak billing).

That's crazy. My electricity is 7.38 cents/kWh and that's in the middle if summer.

[turtle]

So I haven't worked out the numbers completely, but here are the terms for my power type. Yeah, doing the generator might not work as well as I'd like. One that is set up like an automotive engine is likely to last longer, however it does seem like it'd be much more expensive.

See, I'm feeling so trapped when there have to be better options out there. I mean, really. With all this tech out there we seem so stagnant. I looks out for automation options, not because of the geek factor but also for the savings factor. It's not just cost savings, it's independence to a degree to. I'd put up a wind powered generator if my neighbors didn't care and I had enough wind.

Getting more efficient appliances really should be my first course of action, I'll look into that first. I know better refrigerators would make a difference for our consumption. Right now my house is all electric, down to the electric baseboard heaters. So figuring our a way to make the most efficient use of my power is my target. Going with Gas just seemed like it might be a great option long term. I'm not expecting an immediate savings, but I have no plans to move from the house for the foreseeable future.

[billybobsky]

Originally Posted by Escher Here in West Africa...

What a way to begin a post....

I am stealing it.

[billybobsky]

Originally Posted by turtle So I haven't worked out the numbers completely, but here are the terms for my power type. Yeah, doing the generator might not work as well as I'd like. One that is set up like an automotive engine is likely to last longer, however it does seem like it'd be much more expensive. See, I'm feeling so trapped when there have to be better options out there. I mean, really. With all this tech out there we seem so stagnant. I looks out for automation options, not because of the geek factor but also for the savings factor. It's not just cost savings, it's independence to a degree to. I'd put up a wind powered generator if my neighbors didn't care and I had enough wind. Getting more efficient appliances really should be my first course of action, I'll look into that first. I know better refrigerators would make a difference for our consumption. Right now my house is all electric, down to the electric baseboard heaters. So figuring our a way to make the most efficient use of my power is my target. Going with Gas just seemed like it might be a great option long term. I'm not expecting an immediate savings, but I have no plans to move from the house for the foreseeable future.

Buy yourself a plugable usage meter and figure out exactly where you are losing the most electricity -- things like the cable box might be using more than you expect even when 'off'.

[turtle]

I do have one of those...it's been a while since I used it too. Good idea. I shall make that project for this coming week.

[Majost]

Originally Posted by Yontsey That's crazy. My electricity is 7.38 cents/kWh and that's in the middle if summer.

Hunh. And you're in Cleveland-ish? I'm in Pittsburgh. 7.86 cents for supply, 1.45 cents for transmission and 5.21 cents for distribution.

[bassplayinMacFiend]

I'd love to go solar as I have >2K sq ft of roof space (which I was reminded of many times last winter when I had to shovel it off!) and unobstructed sky view (my living room window faces due west).