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Don't tell me Leopard is stable!


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Don't tell me Leopard is stable!
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ezkcdude
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2008-02-19, 08:45

My PowerBook G4 with Tiger very rarely crashed. I can only recall a handful of times in the three years I've had it that I had to "manually" power cycle with the start button. I've only had my iMac/Leopard for a little over a month, and it seems to crash or freeze up at least once a day. I'm not running anything exotic either. To give the latest example, just a few minutes ago - and hence, the genesis of this report - I was using Mail to send off an e-mail with a few pdf attachments. So, what happened? First, I get the spinning beach ball of death. Next I click on some dock icons - Opera, Spaces - and they turn black - like my mouse pointer was Medussa or something. Then, the whole system freezes up, and I resort to the power cycle. This is not an isolated ocurrence. I started a thread last week in the Genius Bar, because I thought it had something to do with MS Word. Before you ask, I updated to 10.5.2 last week. I'm an Apple fan, and an OS X fan - big time - but this is really starting to bug me.
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artesc
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2008-02-19, 09:25

for what its worth, i've never had to worry about my macbook(2nd gen), macbook pro (1st gen). not sure if that helps at all

i know! just delete everything! install a new hard drive, and start from fresh!

artesc all the way!
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ghoti
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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2008-02-19, 09:43

How much memory do you have? Leopard is really slow below 1GB. My gf's PB was an absolute nightmare to use before we upgraded it to a gig. Also, you should run a memory and harddisk check. Perhaps there's another problem there. I haven't seen problems like that in Leopard, and I've used it almost from day one on several different computers (MB, iMac, PB).
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ezkcdude
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2008-02-19, 09:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghoti View Post
How much memory do you have? Leopard is really slow below 1GB. My gf's PB was an absolute nightmare to use before we upgraded it to a gig. Also, you should run a memory and harddisk check. Perhaps there's another problem there. I haven't seen problems like that in Leopard, and I've used it almost from day one on several different computers (MB, iMac, PB).
I have 4 GB, so I don't think memory is an issue.
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ghoti
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2008-02-19, 09:46

Then boot from your installation disks and select the system check utility (I can never remember which disk it's on, but google for it) and run a memory test. Also, do a disk verify in disk utility. This is much more likely due to a hardware problem than due to software.
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ezkcdude
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2008-02-19, 10:21

I ran the OS X Verify disc utility and Apple Hardware Test (not the extended version) on the installation disc, and everything checked out ok. I will try the extended memory test tonight, though.
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doublem9876
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2008-02-19, 10:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezkcdude View Post
I have 4 GB, so I don't think memory is an issue.
Ummm... the PBG4 didn't support 4 gigs of ram...
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dmegatool
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2008-02-19, 11:02

Touché !
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PB PM
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2008-02-19, 11:10

Well, I think 10.5 is stable, cannot recall any hard crashes, and I've had it since day 1.
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Dutch Pear
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2008-02-19, 11:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Well, I think 10.5 is stable, cannot recall any hard crashes, and I've had it since day 1.
Same here, I upgraded my coreduo iMac and core2duo macbook in november, no instability whatsoever.

Sounds like hardware problems to me.

Last edited by Dutch Pear : 2008-02-19 at 11:49.
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ezkcdude
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2008-02-19, 11:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem9876 View Post
Ummm... the PBG4 didn't support 4 gigs of ram...
I may have confused you. I brought up the PB just to give background. The computer giving me problems is an iMac (24") with 4 GB RAM.
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Kickaha
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Join Date: May 2004
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2008-02-19, 12:33

Yeeeeeeeah, in that case, it could be hardware or software. From your initial post, it *really* looked like you were saying that Leopard, on your upgraded PBG4, was flakier than Tiger had been.

Do you have any experience with this iMac running Tiger?

I concur - hardware is the most likely culprit, and I'd be checking the RAM first.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
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ezkcdude
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2008-02-19, 13:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
Yeeeeeeeah, in that case, it could be hardware or software. From your initial post, it *really* looked like you were saying that Leopard, on your upgraded PBG4, was flakier than Tiger had been.

Do you have any experience with this iMac running Tiger?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
I concur - hardware is the most likely culprit, and I'd be checking the RAM first.
Like I said above, I will try the extended memory test tonight. The standard memory test didn't find anything wrong.
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PB PM
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2008-02-19, 14:04

Its also possible that the installation is messed up. If that doesn't help, try and archive install.
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Rehnquist
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2008-02-19, 14:37

Safari is unstable but nothing else has given me problems with 10.5.
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Paranoid666au
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2008-02-20, 03:24

Go into About This Mac and make sure that the computer can see 4GB of RAM.
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chucker
 
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2008-02-20, 04:04

So, anyone care to rename this thread?
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ezkcdude
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2008-02-20, 09:04

I did the extended memory test last night, and it said there were no errors.
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ezkcdude
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2008-02-20, 09:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid666au View Post
Go into About This Mac and make sure that the computer can see 4GB of RAM.
Yes, it does.
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PB PM
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2008-02-20, 10:30

Sounds like a corrupt install to me, honestly. Try an archive install.
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Kickaha
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2008-02-20, 10:36

Agreed, but just to be complete...

Any pattern to when the machine KPs? When it's hot? When it's cold? When it's heating up? When it accesses an external device that you installed drivers for?

A *slightly* loose RAM stick can drive you bonkers - it'll test out fine 99 times out of 100, but when the thermal expansion/contraction hits *just* the right point, *fzzt* you get a KP. (Ditto for a slightly loose drive cable, etc... I pop and reseat pretty much everything on a machine that's KPing randomly. Often, it fixes it. Laptops that get hauled/knocked around are particularly susceptible.)

Does Apple's extended RAM check finally do a thorough diagnosis? It used to be that it didn't, and you had to check with Gauge Pro under OS 9. (Can't recall the specific test... I think I need my memory checked...)

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
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dfiler
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2008-02-20, 15:49

Other responses have this pretty well covered... but one more thought to add.

Major new releases are almost guaranteed to be less stable than a well patched and mature, previous major release. In other words, release 10.5.1 being less stable than 10.4.11 is no big surprise at all. It is expected.

Not that this thought is of any help to you. It just jumped to mind after reading the title of this thread. I hope the problems are solved soon and good luck.
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ezkcdude
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2008-02-20, 16:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
Other responses have this pretty well covered... but one more thought to add.

Major new releases are almost guaranteed to be less stable than a well patched and mature, previous major release. In other words, release 10.5.1 being less stable than 10.4.11 is no big surprise at all. It is expected.

Not that this thought is of any help to you. It just jumped to mind after reading the title of this thread. I hope the problems are solved soon and good luck.
Thanks, I think you are the first person to even suggest Leopard could actually still contain error...

Funny enough, since I started the thread yesterday, it hasn't crashed once. Maybe performing the memory test knocked something back in place. hehe
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dfiler
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2008-02-20, 16:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezkcdude View Post
Thanks, I think you are the first person to even suggest Leopard could actually still contain error...
Fine then... I take back the "good luck" I wished ya.
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ezkcdude
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2008-02-20, 16:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
Fine then... I take back the "good luck" I wished ya.
Whaa? I was giving you a compliment...
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Kickaha
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Join Date: May 2004
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2008-02-20, 17:06

I think it's that...

1) You started with an adversarial title.
2) Said title may not in fact reflect reality.
3) Opening post was lacking detail that bolsters point 2.
3) You 'complimented' by simultaneously setting up and knocking down your own strawman. (Nice moves there, btw... that takes agility.)

Sorry to hear you're having issues, but jumping to conclusions regarding the source, and then taking a combative tone when requesting help is kind of silly. You're not from Brooklyn, are you?

I mean, it's not a big deal, and there are smileys abounding, but perhaps that sheds a little light on the subject.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
  quote
ezkcdude
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2008-02-20, 17:14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
I think it's that...

1) You started with an adversarial title.
2) Said title may not in fact reflect reality.
3) Opening post was lacking detail that bolsters point 2.
3) You 'complimented' by simultaneously setting up and knocking down your own strawman. (Nice moves there, btw... that takes agility.)

Sorry to hear you're having issues, but jumping to conclusions regarding the source, and then taking a combative tone when requesting help is kind of silly. You're not from Brooklyn, are you?

I mean, it's not a big deal, and there are smileys abounding, but perhaps that sheds a little light on the subject.
A "combative tone"? I don't know where you are getting that feeling from, but it's certainly not intentional on my part. Every response up until dfiler was basically that it was either a memory or installation issue, and then dfiler suggested it could actually be a Leopard bug. I was just trying to point that out. Anyway, the title of the thread was not meant to be hostile - but I should know better. Flippancy and sarcasm never come across right on the interweb.

And no, I'm not from Brooklyn - actually S.F., so I'm supposed to be peaceful and non-combative, right?
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ghoti
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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2008-02-20, 17:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezkcdude View Post
Thanks, I think you are the first person to even suggest Leopard could actually still contain error...
If that's what you want: Leopard has bugs. Big deal. But the behavior you're seeing is not the ton of bugs you apparently assume exists in Leopard, but something weird about your system. And you're not going to solve your problem by insisting that it's Leopard's fault.

You should really do an archive install, that should solve the problem if there's something wonky about your installation. If it doesn't stop, take your computer to an Apple store to have it checked out. The symptoms you describe are much more typical of a hardware problem than a messed-up installation - and if there is any connection at all with bugs in Leopard, they can be only a small contributing factor, but not the actual cause.
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Windswept
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2008-02-20, 17:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezkcdude View Post

And no, I'm not from Brooklyn - actually S.F., so I'm supposed to be peaceful and non-combative, right?


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Kickaha
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Join Date: May 2004
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2008-02-20, 17:26

Well, given the general flakiness of your system, it's either hardware or software (ba-dum-*pish*).

Hardware is quicker to discount in most cases, if there's flakiness - something needs a reseat, a device with a bad driver is getting accessed, or it's the RAM. (Very, very, very rarely it's hardware related, but not one of those.) Generally speaking, it's faster to check all of those than it is to do a complete backup/reinstall. So do those first, and eliminate most of the possibilities at one shot. That's why I generally reseat memory and drive cables *first* when a machine is acting up. It's quick, easy, and what the heck - it might just solve it.

Then, and only then, start looking at software with the evil eye. You said you recently upgraded to 10.5.2 - it's entirely possible that something in the install got munged. It happens sometimes - a funky bit or cosmic ray (don't laugh, it's true!) and plorp, something goes awry. Try and recall if you have any third party extensions installed, or anything like APE or SIMBL. Those can definitely cause problems during upgrades.

Then, if none of the above is true, *then* it's more possible that it is Leopard itself, and that you've found a bug that no one else (or few others) has. It's possible, but pretty unlikely.

Which kind of makes the "Don't tell me Leopard is stable!" look rather combative, don't you think?

*shrug* I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
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