User Name
Password
AppleNova Forums » AppleOutsider »

Current State of Trump®


Register Members List Calendar Search FAQ Posting Guidelines
Current State of Trump®
Page 2 of 4 Previous 1 [2] 3 4  Next Thread Tools
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2021-01-13, 03:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
I have to say, though I am conservative and voted that way, I'm appalled by the actions and inactions of Trump. I can't believe we have been able to sit and watch the mob run through the Capitol and spit on America that way. That is not the actions of people trying to do the right thing or even stand up for truth. That was nothing more than a mob of whining and crying idiots. Hopefully those who broke the law will be held accountable.

It is truly saddening to see the honorable places in our country's governance be disgraced like this.
Thank you.
  quote
Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
 
2021-01-13, 08:21

At this point Frank is just playing sophmoric games with poorly defined concepts and stretching the definition of words to suit his purpose. It's the type of argument I would expect from a person indoctrinated with tautologies...
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-01-13, 12:06

Do I need to break out a religion thread?
  quote
Frank777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2021-01-13, 12:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Do I need to break out a religion thread?
Not sure. I guess it depends on whether we want to return to directly discussing the riot inside the Capitol.

I think everyone here - liberal and conservative - is in agreement that those idiots should be hunted down and prosecuted hard.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-01-13, 12:37

It's done.

I don't like having to break up threads, but current events are driving discussions all over the place. I suspect that will be the case for the foreseeable future.

Also, the Current State of Things® is not just about capitol riots. This thread can morph into all the partizan, party-idiology, political BS it wants to. I won't split out any political wrangling. However, if it spins off into religion then it will get split into this thread.

And leave the name-calling at the door, folks.



Personally, I don't think of politics as a flat line, where there is a "left" and a "right" with some unseen utopia at the far side of one or the other "wing". I see politics as a circle with two points: At the top is "Freedom" and at the bottom is "Slavery". The political parties begin to drift away from each other at the top, where Freedom lives. As they drift, they descend the arcs of the circle toward the bottom. If either side drifts too far, then we arrive at Slavery. My experience within political debate has taught me an important thing: That once your ideology carries you too far in either direction, the momentum will naturally lead to the bottom of the circle.

Right now, both sides are swinging past the point of no return (which one might call the half-way point, or "Liberal" and "Conservative"). We are no longer cooperating—like two river-loggers trying to keep the log from spinning in either direction. And if we're not careful the two are headed for a final clash at the bottom—where the Marxists and Fascists live—and both sides will get dumped into the river.

It won't be good.

I've also learned that neither side believes it has drifted at all. Each believes it is at the top, and tries to spin the circle to prove this. The current state of American politics is riding a fine line between a possible recovery and absolute defeat. And if/when it falls, the United States of America will fall hard. Very hard.

And then we will know what it is like to truly be "poor".

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)

Last edited by kscherer : 2021-01-13 at 13:04.
  quote
Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-01-13, 13:12

Congress needs to use this opportunity to jettison everything that Trump has represented. January 6th has been the culmination of what Trump has been stoking over the past 5 years( counting his campaign) and what the GOP has stepped behind ever since he won the nomination/election in 2016.

People want to say impeachment is just another thing the Dems are using to further divide, but I don't see it that way. It's a clear message what took place after 1/6 and the events and rhetoric that led to it no longer has a place in our government. So I see that talk as sweet irony after they voted to object to the electoral college results. It's finally holding Trump accountable for his behavior after years of GOP defense publicly. This offers a clean break for the GOP from Trumpism. Some are ready for that break. While others either buy into it( those that immediately accused it being antifa instead) or out of fear( fear for their lives, families safety, or career) continue to back Trump.

Plus precedent needs to be set that even though you're about to leave office, you can't commit impeachable offenses and get away with it. So that angle of, " He only has a week left, what's the point?" is also BS. It prevents scorched earth exit. Presidents should be able to be held accountable all the way to January 20th at 11:59 am.

giggity
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-01-13, 17:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire View Post
...
Plus precedent needs to be set that even though you're about to leave office, you can't commit impeachable offenses and get away with it. So that angle of, " He only has a week left, what's the point?" is also BS. It prevents scorched earth exit. Presidents should be able to be held accountable all the way to January 20th at 11:59 am.
I have a really hard time arguing or disagreeing with you here. I guess I'm still in shock that this even happened.
  quote
Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-01-13, 18:00

Just saw this that could have been the night before?

https://twitter.com/AynRandPaulRyan/...8990%2Fpage-36

If it was the night before..... How did they get access inside? There are no public tours.

EDIT: That vid certainly backs up this report from CNN.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...sot-nr-vpx.cnn

giggity

Last edited by Quagmire : 2021-01-13 at 18:36.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory.
 
2022-08-09, 07:53

FBI executes search warrant on former President's home.

Seems newsworthy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2022-08-09, 08:35

I know my conservative buddies want to defend him and blame the "liberal justice system" for singling him out, but man this is seeming like a stretch. I get that he wasn't liked, but the have a full raid on his house makes one think there might be more to this we just don't know about. I don't think he was Nixon, but still does make one question what he is really being targeted for.

From the article it looks like it isn't related to his role in Jan 6th but rather taking classified documents to his personal house. That is a big no-no for anyone in the government. Chain of custody and all, your personal residence is never in that chain.

I will say though, I do question how much of this is a big show to try to keep him from running for President again.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2022-08-09, 08:36

Is this unprecedented? Did Nixon's home get searched for Watergate documents or anything like that?
  quote
Matsu
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2022-08-09, 09:08

It's not unprecedented. The Supreme court ordered Nixon to release Whitehouse documents/tapes. The Whitehouse was technically his home, and Nixon, for all other warts, was probably following the rules surrounding preservation of presidential documents.

Trump is different because in the office of president Trump himself is an unprecedented con man who has made a mockery of presidential conventions and the republic's laws. However, because congress (both republican and democrat) was by equal turns corrupt and/or weak, they did little to challenge him. Additionally, the institutions whose functions might be called to aid the checks and balances against unfettered abuse, were equally weak. The justice system failed its responsibilities to investigate a host of abuses. Emoluments? The Supreme Court? Absent... I could go on, but one has to be turning a willfully blind eye to the very likely possibility that Trump sought directly to overthrow an election, to sew a violent insurrection while keeping a pretense of distance, and if so, conspired to cover his own direct involvement.

If they don't investigate him, and search all of his person/assets/businesses/associates, in search of the truth of those events, then why do they exist at all?

Last edited by Matsu : 2022-08-09 at 19:23. Reason: I'm developing a potty mouth :(
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory.
 
2022-08-09, 09:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
I will say though, I do question how much of this is a big show to try to keep him from running for President again.
Nothing here will legally keep him from running for President again – he could run from prison if he wanted to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
. . . and Nixon, for all other warts, was probably following the rules surrounding preservation of presidential documents.
And yesterday was the anniversary of his resignation. 🤔
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2022-08-09, 09:47

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
It's not unprecedented. The Supreme court ordered Nixon to release Whitehouse documents/tapes. The Whitehouse was technically his home, and Nixon, for all other warts, was probably following the rules surrounding preservation of presidential documents.
That's a good point. Somehow I forgot that Trump is the only recent president who didn't really treat the White House as his home.

(Reports suggest he spent about 1/3rd of his presidency in Trump-owned or branded properties.)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...nded-property/
Quote:
Over the course of his presidency, Trump has visited a Trump-owned or branded property on three out of every 10 days. Slightly more: Of the 1,075 days on which he has been president, he has visited Mar-a-Lago or a Trump Something-or-other on 331 of them, 31 percent of the time. Barring a sudden change of heart late Monday, he’ll spend at least part of Dec. 31 at Mar-a-Lago, too. That means he will have visited a Trump property on 117 days in 2019, the same number as in 2017.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2022-08-09, 18:15

People who believe in Trump may never abandon him. As an example, a beloved relative (who was a good man with strong moral compass) still believed (decades later) that Nixon had been doing the right thing with his off-books investigation of the Democrats because of the Cold War and the lack of caution the counterculture displayed (to name a few).

Politics is religion, for some.

...
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2022-08-09, 18:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
Politics is religion, for some.
FTFY.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2022-08-09, 18:31

It is interesting to skim articles from both sides of the political spectrum on the raid on Trump. The blue side says he deserved it and the red says it is unjustified and a plot.

I'm personally leaning to the middle on this. Some level of justification while some being people who don't like him going to extremes. This too will be interesting to see how it plays out after the details emerge.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
Matsu
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2022-08-09, 19:34

Politics is not religion, it’s tribalism. Partisans from both sides of the spectrum can be faulted for effectively recasting politics in general as shorthand for “identity politics.” But these identities often have less to do with the content of the ideas and principles at stake as they do with a gratifying form of self-confirming signals about the differences between us and them. Lazy politicians (and an army of consultants) who aren’t interested in challenging anyone’s ideas in general, and certainly not internally (for fear of offending their base) resort to baiting the other guy and trying to pass that off as asking the hard questions.
  quote
kieran
Tweeting @kierankelly
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
 
2022-08-09, 21:28

Just imagine what those agents needed to put into that warrant application in order to get a judge to sign off on a search warrant to go into a former President's home. I doubt it will ever be fully released, but that would be a fascinating document.

I don't know how to feel about this. It could end up galvanizing support for Trump and get the entire base of his supporters to get even more fervent, or it could finally close the loop on Trump as the head of the Republican Party.

There have been so many times that people have said "This is it. He's done." and this is yet another one of those times, but who knows at this point...
  quote
Frank777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2022-08-10, 00:49

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
Is this unprecedented? Did Nixon's home get searched for Watergate documents or anything like that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
It's not unprecedented.
"I share the deep concern of millions of Americans over the unprecedented search of the personal residence of President Trump. No former President of the United States has ever been subject to a raid of their personal residence in American history." - Mike Pence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
That's a good point. Somehow I forgot that Trump is the only recent president who didn't really treat the White House as his home.
Biden also spends a lot of time at his Delaware home. Who he meets with there is a mystery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
Politics is not religion, it’s tribalism.
It mostly rests on ideology and worldview though, so I think it's a bit of both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kieran View Post
Just imagine what those agents needed to put into that warrant application in order to get a judge to sign off on a search warrant to go into a former President's home. I doubt it will ever be fully released, but that would be a fascinating document.
See, this would have been a good argument if the world hadn't already seen Democratic operatives use their own opposition research resources to launder a host of lies [aka the Steele Dossier] in front of a judge to get wiretaps on their political opposition.

Given that the FBI's choice of judge is particularly interesting, I'm betting that the warrant will be a source of controversy until its contents get leaked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kieran View Post
It could end up galvanizing support for Trump and get the entire base of his supporters to get even more fervent, or it could finally close the loop on Trump as the head of the Republican Party.
I'm guessing they hoped Trump would declare his candidacy early because of this, turning the midterms into a referendum on him and sparing Democrats some of the shellacking they are about to receive. So far Trump doesn't seem to have taken the bait, though his ego might still do him in.

Raiding a former President's home over the Presidential Records Act is ridiculous overkill and only confirms that all this is just a pretext to prevent him from running again. Which it likely is. Left wingers will defend the move as aggressively procedural, and right wingers will continue to raise the Banana Republic arguments.

But U.S. Centrists/Independents are the key, and I can't seem them going along with targeted political opposition raids.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory.
 
2022-08-10, 05:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by kieran View Post
Just imagine what those agents needed to put into that warrant application in order to get a judge to sign off on a search warrant to go into a former President's home. I doubt it will ever be fully released, but that would be a fascinating document.
A Trump appointed judge and a Trump appointed FBI director at that. It's got to be bigger than just withholding classified documents from the National Archives. The warrant will leak (or Trump could just release it) soon enough.

I'm not sure who put out this talking point that this happened to 'prevent Trump from running again' - that is the absolute best thing that could happen for Democrats.

So it goes.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2022-08-10, 09:16

Left and right wing nut jobs going crazy over this, where’s the popcorn?

Trump, the gift that keeps on giving.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2022-08-10, 10:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Left and right wing nut jobs going crazy over this, where’s the popcorn?

Trump, the gift that keeps on giving.


Got to give them a bone to fight over.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory.
 
2022-08-10, 13:12

  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2022-08-10, 13:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post


So true.
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2022-08-10, 16:18

Trump declines to answer questions in N.Y. attorney general investigation (Reuters)
Quote:
"I declined to answer the questions under the rights and privileges afforded to every citizen under the United States Constitution," Trump said in a statement issued roughly an hour after he arrived in a motorcade at the attorney general's office in lower Manhattan for the deposition behind closed doors.
But also Trump speaking previously about the Fifth at various events over the last decade:
Quote:
Taking the Fifth Amendment. Like you see on the mob, right? You see the mob takes the Fifth. If you're innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?
Quote:
Fifth Amendment. Fifth Amendment. Fifth Amendment. Horrible. Horrible.
Quote:
"I want the Fifth Amendment. I want immunity." The reason they get immunity is because they did something wrong. If they didn't do anything wrong, they don't think in terms of immunity.
Quote:
And if you're not guilty of a crime, what do you need immunity for, right?
Quote:
He pleaded the Fifth Amendment. What are we gonna do with this guy? What happened? He pleaded the Fifth. Right? He pleaded the Fifth. Where is he? This is like a third-world country, folks. It's terrible. This is really — if we bring it up — this is like Watergate, only it's worse.
Quote:
It's worse than Watergate. It's a bigger deal than Watergate. So many people took the Fifth Amendment, there was nobody left. They all got immunity deals.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2022-08-10, 16:34

In fairness, everyone is taught to laugh about the 5th Amendment — until they're the ones in the hot seat. And then suddenly it's your best friend. Every half-way decent defense attorney — and I mean ALL of themwill tell you to exercise your 5th Amendment rights and not talk. EVER! But, we're all taught to laugh and point fingers at those who plead the 5th. It is literally taught to us! Every one of us. Except for defense attorneys, who have to plead with their clients to keep their mouths shut! From the time we're little kids we're taught that pleading the 5th means we must be guilty of something, which is entirely, 100% wrong! That's not what the 5th Amendment is there for. Please educate yourselves!

"Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law." Not "may", or "might", or "maybe", but anything you say will be used against you! The government can and will use your words against you, even if they have to twist and distort those words.

Example: A man breaks into your home intent on robbing you and raping your wife. You shoot the man in self defense. The cops arrive and ask you what happened. Most people are taught to tell the police every detail, and many will embellish. Some might even say something dumb like, "I shot him before he could get away!" (and you're now likely going to prison because you opened your stupid mouth). A good defense attorney will tell you to say this: "I would like to exercise my 5th Amendment right and I refuse to answer any questions without the presence of my attorney." And off to jail you go. Your attorney will pat you on the back, say "job well done" and then coach you from that point on. Once you have told the police this, they are not legally allowed to continue to interrogate you. They know this, but they also know that if you start squawking that whatever spills from your mouth is fair game. DO. NOT. TALK!

And all of these political gods say the same jackassery. Nothing new. Over the last 20 years I've witnessed more political point-switching by the parties than at any other time in history. It's good until it isn't, and then it's bad until it's good.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)

Last edited by kscherer : 2022-08-10 at 16:45.
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2022-08-10, 16:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
In fairness, everyone is taught to laugh about the 5th Amendment
I disagree on this point. I haven't, and I don't think I've known anyone IRL who acts like the Fifth is a joke. Any political leader in this country — left, right, or center — who so openly devalues it in order to pander to their base should be ashamed, and that this guy is now pleading the Fifth is just delivering a galactic size dose of schadenfreude.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory.
 
2022-08-10, 16:54

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
"Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."
The difference is that the NYAG investigation is civil, not criminal, so taking the Fifth in that case can backfire, as the court can instruct the jury that it can draw an 'adverse inference' - that is, not answering the question means that he's totes guilty.

So it goes.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2022-08-10, 17:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
I disagree on this point. I haven't, and I don't think I've known anyone IRL who acts like the Fifth is a joke.
Until someone you don't like does it, and then you're pre-programmed to assume their guilt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
The difference is that the NYAG investigation is civil, not criminal, so taking the Fifth in that case can backfire, as the court can instruct the jury that it can draw an 'adverse inference' - that is, not answering the question means that he's totes guilty.
That's correct, and the Constitution supports it.

And it's a weirdly hypocritical thing.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
Posting Rules Navigation
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Page 2 of 4 Previous 1 [2] 3 4  Next

Post Reply

Forum Jump
Thread Tools
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can someone explain the current state of Microsoft Office to me? psmith2.0 Third-Party Products 21 2022-09-13 12:25
Current State of Healthcare in the US - A good read MBHockey AppleOutsider 5 2008-03-12 12:50
What's your state's law? Banana AppleOutsider 42 2007-11-07 12:35
State Or The Art drewprops AppleOutsider 44 2006-06-27 15:43
State of the Union ZogDog AppleOutsider 13 2005-02-08 21:47


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:38.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2022, AppleNova