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Divide and Conquer: The AN Politics Thread


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Divide and Conquer: The AN Politics Thread
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chucker
 
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2022-09-04, 01:33

I do think the visual language is a bit strange.
  quote
drewprops
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Location: Atlanta
 
2022-09-04, 07:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I do think the visual language is a bit strange.
I wonder who set it up?
The speech, again, since it got cut by the fold >>


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Biden
My fellow Americans, please, if you have a seat, take it.

I speak to you tonight from sacred ground in America: Independence Hall in Philadelphia, Pa.

This is where America made its declaration of independence to the world more than two centuries ago, with an idea unique among nations: that in America, we’re all created equal.
This is where the United States Constitution was written and debated. This is where we set in motion the most extraordinary experiment of self-government the world has ever known.

With three simple words: we, the people; we, the people. These two documents and their ideas they embody — equality and democracy — are the rock upon which this nation is built.

They are how we became the greatest nation on earth. They are why, for more than two centuries, America has been a beacon to the world.

But as I stand here tonight, equality and democracy are under assault. We do ourselves no favor to pretend otherwise.

So, tonight, I’ve come to this place where it all began to speak as plainly as I can to the nation about the threats we face, about the power we have in our own hands to meet these threats and about the incredible future that lies in front of us, if only we choose it.

We must never forget, we, the people, are the true heirs of the American experiment that began more than two centuries ago.
We, the people, have burning inside of each of us the flame of liberty that was lit here at Independence Hall. A flame that lit our way through abolition, the Civil War, suffrage, the Great Depression, world wars, civil rights. That sacred flame still burns. Now on our time as we build an America that is more prosperous, free, and just. That is the work of my presidency, a mission I believe in with my whole soul.

But first, we must be honest with each other and with ourselves.

Too much of what’s happening in our country today is not normal. Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans represent an extremism that threatens the very foundations of our Republic.

Now, I want to be very clear, very clear up front. Not every Republican, not even the majority of Republicans, are MAGA Republicans. Not every Republican embraces their extreme ideology. I know, because I’ve been able to work with these mainstream Republicans.

But there’s no question that the Republican Party today is dominated, driven and intimidated by Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans. And that is a threat to this country.

These are hard things, but I’m an American president, not a president of red America or blue America, but of all America. And I believe it’s my duty, my duty to level with you, to tell the truth no matter how difficult, no matter how painful.

And here, in my view, is what is true: MAGA Republicans do not respect the Constitution. They do not believe in the rule of law. They do not recognize the will of the people. They refuse to accept the results of a free election, and they’re working right now as I speak in state after state to give power to decide elections in America to partisans and cronies, empowering election deniers to undermine democracy itself.
MAGA forces are determined to take this country backwards, backwards to an America where there is no right to choose, no right to privacy, no right to contraception, no right to marry who you love. They promote authoritarian leaders, and they fanned the flames of political violence that are a threat to our personal rights, to the pursuit of justice, to the rule of law, to the very soul of this country.

They look at the mob that stormed the United States Capitol on Jan. 6, brutally attacking law enforcement, not as insurrectionists who placed a dagger at the throat of our democracy, but they look at them as patriots. And they see their MAGA failure to stop a peaceful transfer of power after the 2020 election as preparation for the 2022 and 2024 elections.

They tried everything last time to nullify the votes of 81 million people. This time, they’re determined to succeed in thwarting the will of the people. That’s why respected conservatives like Federal Circuit Court Judge Michael Luttig has called Trump and the extreme MAGA Republicans “a clear and present danger” to our democracy.

But while the threat to American democracy is real, I want to say as clearly as we can, we are not powerless in the face of these threats. We are not bystanders in this ongoing attack on democracy. There are far more Americans, far more Americans from every background and belief, who reject the extreme MAGA ideology than those that accept it. And folks, it’s within our power, it’s in our hands, yours and mine, to stop the assault on American democracy.

I believe America is at an inflection point, one of those moments that determine the shape of everything that’s to come after. And now, America must choose to move forward or to move backwards, to build a future or obsess about the past, to be a nation of hope and unity and optimism or a nation of fear, division and of darkness.

MAGA Republicans have made their choice. They embrace anger. They thrive on chaos. They live, not in the light of truth but in the shadow of lies. But together, together, we can choose a different path. We can choose a better path forward to the future, a future of possibility, a future to build a dream and hope, and we’re on that path moving ahead.

I know this nation. I know you, the American people. I know your courage, I know your hearts, and I know our history. This is a nation that honors our Constitution. We do not reject it. This is a nation that believes in the rule of law. We do not repudiate it. This is a nation that respects free and fair elections. We honor the will of the people. We do not deny it. And this is a nation that rejects violence as a political tool. We do not encourage violence. We are still an America that believes in honesty and decency and respect for others. Patriotism, liberty, justice for all, hope, possibilities — we are still at our core a democracy.
And yet, history tells us that blind loyalty to a single leader and a willingness to engage in political violence is fatal to democracy.
For a long time, we’ve told ourselves that American democracy is guaranteed, but it’s not. We have to defend it, protect it, stand up for it, each and every one of us. That’s why tonight, I’m asking our nation to come together, unite behind the single purpose of defending our democracy regardless of your ideology.

We’re all called by duty and conscience to confront extremists who put their own pursuit of power above all else. Democrats, independents, mainstream Republicans, we must be stronger, more determined and more committed to saving American democracy. And MAGA Republicans are destroying American democracy.

We, the people, will not let anyone or anything tear us apart. Today, there are dangers around us we cannot allow to prevail. We hear — you’ve heard it, more and more talk about violence as an acceptable political tool in this country. It’s not. It can never be an acceptable tool. So, I want to say this plain and simple: There is no place for political violence in America, period, none, ever.

You saw law enforcement brutally attacked on January the 6th. We’ve seen election officials, poll workers, many of them volunteers of both parties, subject to intimidation and death threats. And, can you believe it, F.B.I. agents just doing their job as directed, facing threats to their own lives from their own fellow citizens.

On top of that, there are public figures today, yesterday and the day before predicting and all but calling for mass violence and rioting in the streets. This is inflammatory. It’s dangerous. It’s against the rule of law. And we, the people, must say this is not who we are.

Ladies and gentlemen, we can’t be pro-insurrectionist and pro-American. They’re incompatible. We can’t allow violence to be normalized in this country. It’s wrong. We each have to reject political violence with all the moral clarity and conviction this nation can muster now.
We can’t let the integrity of our elections be undermined, for that is a path to chaos. Look, I know politics can be fierce and mean and nasty in America. I get it. I believe in the give and take of politics, in disagreement and debate and dissent. We’re a big complicated country, but democracy endures only if we, the people, respect the guardrails of the Republic. Only if, we the people accept the results of free and fair elections. Only if, we the people see politics, not as total war, but mediation of our differences. Democracy cannot survive on one side believes there are only two outcomes to an election: Either they win or they were cheated. And that’s where the MAGA Republicans are today.
They don’t understand what every patriotic American knows. You can’t love your country only when you win. It’s fundamental.

American democracy only works only if we choose to respect the rule of law and the institutions that were set up in this chamber behind me. Only if we respect our legitimate political differences.

I will not stand by and watch — I will not — the will of the American people be overturned by wild conspiracy theories and baseless evidence-free claims of fraud. I will not stand by and watch elections in this country stolen by people who simply refuse to accept that they lost. I will not stand by and watch the most fundamental freedom in this country, the freedom to vote and have your vote counted, and be taken from you and the American people.

Look, as your president, I will defend our democracy with every fiber of my being, and I’m asking every American to join me.

Throughout our history, America has often made the greatest progress coming out of some of our darkest moments like you’re hearing in that bullhorn. I believe we can and must do that again, and we are.

MAGA Republicans look at America and see carnage and darkness and despair. They spread fear and lies. Lies told for profit and power.

But I see a different America — an America with an unlimited future, an America that’s about to take off. I hope you see it as well. Just look around. I believe we could lift America from the depths of Covid, so we passed the largest economic recovery package since Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and today America’s economy is faster, stronger than any other advanced nation in the world. We have more to go. I believe we can build a better America, so we passed the biggest infrastructure investment since President Dwight D. Eisenhower, and we’ve now embarked on a decade of rebuilding the nation’s roads, bridges, highways, ports, water systems, high-speed internet, railroads.
I believe we can make America safer, so we passed the most significant gun safety law since President Clinton.

I believe we could go from being the highest cost of prescriptions to the world to making prescription drugs and health care more affordable, so we passed the most significant health care reform since President Obama signed the Affordable Care Act.

And I believed we could create a clean energy future and save the planet, so we passed the most important climate initiative ever, ever, ever.

The cynics and the critics tell us nothing can get done, but they’re wrong.

There is not a single thing America cannot do, not a single thing beyond our capacity if we do it together. It’s never easy. But we’re proving that America, no matter how long the road, progress does come.

Look, I know the last year, few years have been tough, but today Covid no longer controls our lives. More Americans are working than ever. Businesses are growing, our schools are open, millions of Americans have been lifted out of poverty. Millions of veterans once exposed to toxic burn pits will now get what they deserve for their families in compensation. American manufacturing has come alive across the heartland, and the future will be made in America, no matter what the white supremacists and the extremists say.

I made a bet on you, the American people, and that bet is paying off, proving that from darkness, the darkness of Charlottesville, of Covid, of gun violence, of insurrection, we can see the light. Light is now visible. Light that will guide us forward. Not only in words but in actions. Actions for you, for your children, for your grandchildren, for America.
Even in this moment with all the challenges we face, I give you my word as a Biden, I’ve never been more optimistic about America’s future. Not because of me, but because of who you are.

We’re going to end cancer as we know it, mark my words. We’re going to create millions of new jobs and a clean energy economy. We’re going to think big. We’re going to make the 21st century another American century because the world needs us to. That’s where we need to focus our energy. Not in the past, not on divisive culture wars, not on the politics of grievance, but on a future we can build together.

The MAGA Republicans believe that for them to succeed, everyone else has to fail. They believe America, not like what I believe about America. I believe America is big enough for all of us to succeed, and that is the nation we’re building, a nation where no one is left behind.

I ran for president because I believed we were in a battle of the soul of this nation. I still believe that to be true. I believe the soul is the breadth, the life and the essence of who we are. The soul is what makes us, us.

The soul of America is defined by the sacred proposition that all are created equal in the image of God, that all are entitled to be treated with decency, dignity and respect, that all deserve justice and a shot at lives of prosperity and consequence. And that democracy, democracy must be defended, for democracy makes all these things possible.

Folks, and it’s up to us. Democracy begins and will be preserved, and we the people’s habits of the heart — in our character, optimism that is tested, yet endures, courage that digs deep when we need it. Empathy that fuels democracy. The willingness to see each other not as enemies but as fellow Americans.

Look, our democracy isn’t perfect. It always has been. Notwithstanding those folks you hear on the other side there. They’re entitled to be outrageous. This is a democracy. But history and common sense — good manners is nothing they have ever suffered from — but history and common sense tell us that opportunity, liberty and justice for all are most likely to come to pass in a democracy. We have never fully realized the aspirations of our founding, but every generation has opened those doors a little bit wider to include more people who have been excluded before.
My fellow Americans, America is an idea; the most powerful idea in the history of the world, and it beats in the hearts of the people of this country. It beats in all our hearts. It unites America. It is the American creed.
The idea that America guarantees that everyone be treated with dignity. It gives hate no safe harbor. It installs in everyone the belief that no matter where you start in life, there’s nothing you can’t achieve. That’s who we are. That’s what we stand for. That’s what we believe.

And that’s precisely what we’re doing — opening doors, creating possibilities, focusing on the future — and we’re only just beginning.

Our task is to make our nation free and fair, just and strong, noble and whole, and this work is the work of democracy, the work of this generation. It is the work of our time for all time. We can’t afford to leave anyone on the sidelines. We need everyone to do their part, so speak up, speak out, get engaged, vote, vote, vote!

And if we do our duty, if we do our duty, in 2022 and beyond, then ages still to come will say we, all of us here, we kept the faith. We preserved democracy. We heeded our words. We heeded not our worst instincts but our better angels. We proved that for all its imperfections, America is still the beacon to the world, an ideal to be realized, a promise to be kept. There’s nothing more important. Nothing more sacred. Nothing more American. That’s our soul. That’s who we truly are. And that’s who we must always be.

I have no doubt, none, that this is who we will be and that we’ll come together as a nation that will secure our democracy. That for the next 200 years we’ll have what we had the past 200 years, the greatest nation on the face of the earth. We just need to remember who we are. We are the United States of America, the United States of America. And may God protect our nation, and may God protect all those who stand watch over our democracy.

God bless you all. Democracy. Thank you.
  quote
PB PM
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2022-09-04, 08:54

I’ll be honest this is the first time I’ve even looked at the speech. Not sure I get what all the big blow back is about. Are people upset that Biden talked about the danger of extremism, and people who are trying to undermine democracy? He clearly didn’t call all republicans evil or anti-democratic. Not exactly calling half of Americans evil or extremists, as was somewhat asserted earlier in this thread. Way to many comments being taken out of context to say something they are not. No wonder things get so heated.

I don’t really get off on all this praise great America stuff, had to pass that BS over (sorry, but not sorry), but over all it seems like he was a) talking to his base as all politicians do and B) addressing, from his point of view, the type of people who are trying to undermine democracy in the US to the detriment of the majority of Americans. Hardly as divisive as I was expecting.
  quote
Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2022-09-04, 09:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
I’ll be honest this is the first time I’ve even looked at the speech. Not sure I get what all the big blow back is about. Are people upset that Biden talked about the danger of extremism, and people who are trying to undermine democracy? He clearly didn’t call all republicans evil or anti-democratic. Not exactly calling half of Americans evil or extremists, as was somewhat asserted earlier in this thread. Way to many comments being taken out of context to say something they are not. No wonder things get so heated.

I don’t really get off on all this praise great America stuff, had to pass that BS over (sorry, but not sorry), but over all it seems like he was a) talking to his base as all politicians do and B) addressing, from his point of view, the type of people who are trying to undermine democracy in the US to the detriment of the majority of Americans. Hardly as divisive as I was expecting.
I honestly think the idea of “unifying” to the GOP and conservative media at least in the narrative is forgetting January 6 ever happened or treat it as no big deal. It happened, move on. By continuing to talk about it, it’s just attacking Trump, continues to divide, etc.

giggity
  quote
drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2022-09-04, 09:44

My thoughts as well.
The drama was entirely manufactured.
Is Biden our best President? No.
Has he attacked the GOP? Not even.
I will talk about how wrong January 6th was until the crack of doom.

...
  quote
drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2022-09-04, 23:01

David Frum at The Atlantic is suggesting that Biden's speech was designed to draw Trump out into the open, and that it was effective. That's an interesting take on the situation, and honestly, whether or not it was designed to provoke Trump, it's clear that's what happened and what was BOUND to happen if such a speech were made, which is what makes it such a believable, unprovable theory.


...
  quote
drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2022-09-05, 05:26

Finally, I think that it is super important to recognize that a lot of people who defended Trump for as long as they could, were always better citizens than Trump; including a lot of the people who were swept up in his crazy January 6th raid.

By that, I mean that they were more ethical, more polite, more civic-minded, more measured, less bombastic.

I have stood on the steps of the house of an old man I've known since I was 6 years old and I told him that he was a better person than Trump. I think I kind of astonished him when I listed all the ways he was better. It kind of shut down the debate we'd been having.

Biden did not demean all Republicans, only those who have continued to push demonstrably false information; the minds Trump has hacked. His flesh and blood bot army.

Biden:

“For a long time, we’ve reassured ourselves that American democracy is guaranteed. But it is not. We have to defend it. Protect it. Stand up for it. Each and every one of us."

“MAGA Republicans do not respect the Constitution. They do not believe in the rule of law. They do not recognize the will of the people, refuse to accept the results of a free election.”

Republicans need to be part of the group protecting the Constitution, even if it means that our team doesn't win the next game.


...
  quote
Frank777
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Join Date: May 2004
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2022-09-05, 15:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
David Frum at The Atlantic is suggesting that Biden's speech was designed to draw Trump out into the open, and that it was effective. That's an interesting take on the situation, and honestly, whether or not it was designed to provoke Trump, it's clear that's what happened and what was BOUND to happen if such a speech were made, which is what makes it such a believable, unprovable theory.
This is the absolute best political realignment I've seen in my entire life.

For decades, Christian conservatives and fiscal conservatives have been fighting to keep the U.S. and the world safe from war-mongering (and often war-profiteering) neo-conservatives, and Trump has finally ousted most of them from the party.

And despite the fact that Democrats also viscerally hated these people for almost the entire length of the Iraq and Afghan wars, Trump has driven them so internally crazy that they are now welcoming and funding people like Cheney and Frum with open arms.
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chucker
 
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2022-09-05, 15:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
For decades, Christian conservatives and fiscal conservatives have been fighting to keep the U.S. and the world safe from war-mongering (and often war-profiteering) neo-conservatives,
Yes, we all remember how the Christian right warned us against Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Bolton.

Oh wait, that didn’t happen at all.
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Frank777
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2022-09-05, 16:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Yes, we all remember how the Christian right warned us against Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Bolton.

Oh wait, that didn’t happen at all.
There were plenty of public calls for Bush to explain how the invasion of Iraq was justified in the light of Just War doctrines set forth by St Augustine and others. That just doesn't get covered much on CNN.

It's also true that Christians overwhelmingly supported Bush over Kerry. But as we've seen with Biden and Pelosi at the helm, the U.S. military-industrial complex had little difficulty transitioning from profiteering in Afghanistan to profiteering in Ukraine.
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drewprops
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2022-09-05, 17:20

What strange cheese has been set before us?


...
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Matsu
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2022-09-05, 18:04

When it serves their purposes, Christians on the Right tend to develop selective amnesia about their overt endorsement of Republican politics. There’s opposition, and then there’s opposition. One has to ask if a group is routinely holding their nose to vote, maybe they actually like the smell?
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PB PM
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2022-09-05, 18:45

Some elements of the Christian right do tend to flip flops all over the place, and have a very short memory. This group latches onto anyone they believe could help them advance their agenda to force religious laws and rules onto the general public, nothing else matters at the end of the day. In their minds, the ends justify the means, regardless if they have to dismiss the very teachings they proclaim to follow to achieve that goal. In my experience it is a small, but very influential group, generally families of multi-generational leaders in higher positions of leadership, that are actively deceiving those who follow them. It's just sad to watch, and was the main reason I got out of the church altogether. I don't want this to turn into "us vs them" thing, because to me it's not, this is just my experience, but it sounds like I'm not the only one who has seen this behavior.

To the question is, how does that tie into the subject? A lot if we think about it, if leading elements are pointing in a direction with followers, they are likely to, well follow that lead. There is a lot of, do without questioning in politics, which only reinforces this. If the leaders say, vote for person x or y, a lot of members do so, without vetting the person being voted for. That carries on right to the top. People on the left do this as well, so don't think I'm pointing fingers one way and not the other. The fact that elections are popularity contests about the leaders, and not about the job at hand is just sad, given that most of the real work is done by bureaucrats behind the scenes.
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Frank777
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2022-09-05, 23:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
What strange cheese has been set before us?

Very perceptive.

I do want an answer on this one. I had thought that while many right-wingers think the left-wing worldview is insane, and many left-wingers think the right-wing worldview is insane, there was at least common cause that the neo-con ideology was mostly stupid and evil.

You cannot bomb and invade a country into democracy. Everyone on all sides knows this, and the misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan were mostly about global chess moves that just happened to enrich a special group of people. Then Trump, to his credit, managed to go four years without starting any wars and drawing down forces in both the Middle East and Afghanistan.

So Biden comes in and proceeds to "accidentally" leave a gargantuan amount of military equipment behind in Afghanistan. Much of which will have to be replaced at U.S. taxpayer expense. Then the war in Ukraine starts, and tens of billions start to flow to replace munitions being sent to Ukraine. While Putin is also a nutcase, it's starting to look like the West is doing plenty to prolong a war that is again, enriching a lot of special people.

The one bright light was that the neo-cons were not going to be able to advance their agenda in the future, as they have been mostly exiled by Trumpists. And then, they just casually crossed the floor to the Democrats. I'm watching Liz Cheney being celebrated as a hero patriot by the left, and this week saw David Frum being casually name-dropped into a political thread, not by a conservative, as a purveyor of insightful analysis.

Should we not be discussing why the neo-cons hate Trump? Does anyone think that the neo-cons care about his mean tweets and the border wall?

Is the Democratic base really going to just grant these people, whom they have vilified for years, political sanctuary?
  quote
Bryson
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2022-09-06, 08:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
Well this is an interesting tweet.

Never mind the "anti-Joe" talk, but it sure does look like CNN shifted the color of the speech.

It is really prevalent in the CNN video. Now, I don't know if it was doctored for the tweet (as in faked) or if CNN really did change the color, but it sure looks like they did compared to the CSPAN video.
Conspiracy theories are fun and all, but it looks to me that all CNN did is color-correct the terrible greenish tinge away from the flesh tones.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
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2022-09-06, 09:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
Conspiracy theories are fun and all, but it looks to me that all CNN did is color-correct the terrible greenish tinge away from the flesh tones.
Now THAT makes sense.
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chucker
 
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2022-09-06, 09:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
There were plenty of public calls for Bush to explain how the invasion of Iraq was justified in the light of Just War doctrines set forth by St Augustine and others. That just doesn't get covered much on CNN.
I'm sure that happened a little bit, but the overwhelming impression I got was that the wars enjoyed wide support, especially from the center and right. You can also tell from approval ratings when either of the two wars started.

I do not recall people like Falwell, Robertson, etc. openly criticizing the war, or the DHS apparatus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
as we've seen with Biden and Pelosi at the helm, the U.S. military-industrial complex had little difficulty transitioning from profiteering in Afghanistan to profiteering in Ukraine.
Oh, that I would agree with. There's a problematically broad foreign policy consensus.
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kscherer
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Join Date: Aug 2004
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2022-09-06, 10:52

Don't give two craps about any of this stuff, but as I was glancing through I caught this bit:

Quote:
… for them to succeed, everyone else has to fail …
And it reminded me of this at 7:15

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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