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Capella Wasn't Here Mac Studio Thread
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chucker
 
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2022-03-17, 09:52

Quote:
it's buying you panel tech that is woefully behind the curve
Is it, though?

If so:

a) why the hell can I still not get a >=200 ppi panel for less than a fortune? I mean, he's right: this panel is (mostly) the same as that of the Retina iMac from 2014, so it's about eight years old. (I say "mostly" because some issues with those early panels have since been resolved.)
b) he's probably referring to better black levels, HDR, higher framerate. That's all fair. But what about getting the basics resoled first — better text? This display seems to be the only(!) external display on which text looks good.

(The webcam part is puzzling. Almost seems like a firmware bug. How do you make a 12-megapixel camera look this bad? It's not 720p. It's not 1080p. It's roughly 4K, really. Yet the images look like 480p.)
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chucker
 
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2022-03-17, 09:55

Never mind on the webcam. https://www.macrumors.com/2022/03/17...ftware-update/
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psmith2.0
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2022-03-17, 09:59

Yeah, that was part of my previous post, the camera quality being addressed with a software update somewhere between tomorrow and September 18. Maybe. If they feel like it.
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chucker
 
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2022-03-17, 10:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
Yeah, that was part of my previous post, the camera quality being addressed with a software update somewhere between tomorrow and September 18. Maybe. If they feel like it.
Oh, I'm sorry. I missed that!

But still, it's odd. Were they hoping reviewers somehow wouldn't notice? Is this a bug that only affects <10% of the displays? Had they not noticed in their own pre-production hardware?
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psmith2.0
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2022-03-17, 10:08

That's what I've been wondering. Probably just a handful of early units, otherwise we'd hear way more about it I guess. These things happen, but it's just funny when it happens on top of a bunch of other "WTF?!"-isms and so-so reviews.

Their out-of-the-gate QC has been all over the place in recent years.
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Matsu
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2022-03-17, 10:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Is it, though?

If so:

a) why the hell can I still not get a >=200 ppi panel for less than a fortune? I mean, he's right: this panel is (mostly) the same as that of the Retina iMac from 2014, so it's about eight years old. (I say "mostly" because some issues with those early panels have since been resolved.)
b) he's probably referring to better black levels, HDR, higher framerate. That's all fair. But what about getting the basics resoled first — better text? This display seems to be the only(!) external display on which text looks good.

(The webcam part is puzzling. Almost seems like a firmware bug. How do you make a 12-megapixel camera look this bad? It's not 720p. It's not 1080p. It's roughly 4K, really. Yet the images look like 480p.)
I meant to mention in my previous post. I think it depends on what the reviewer is prioritizing. Just being HDR doesn't make a panel useful necessarily. Color accuracy, backlight stability, brightness control, gamut??? There's plenty of panels that claim HDR spec, but aren't really good for much.

.........................................
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PB PM
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2022-03-17, 10:49

The numbers for these studio systems are super impressive. 87W under full load with the ultra. That’s less than average idol power use of a desktop 8th gen Intel K series chip (it can dip to 45W, but not often).

If I didn’t need a windows desktop for things I do, I’d get the entry level Studio in a heartbeat. Of course the storage not being user expandable is a pain, typical Apple move of course. You could have a super clean setup, but instead you have to litter your desk with external drives.

Added Review Link:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022...workhorse-mac/

Last edited by PB PM : 2022-03-17 at 11:03.
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chucker
 
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2022-03-17, 10:56

Really nailed it with my 90W prediction.
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turtle
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2022-03-17, 14:22

Nice to see them use Handbreak Fast 1080p30 as a benchmark given it is what I'm using.

The Ultra would be awesome for the encoding stuff I do, I just don't know that I do it enough to justify the cost.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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Matsu
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2022-03-17, 14:39

Given the performance per watt, are these destined to make up computer farms?
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Frank777
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2022-03-17, 14:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
Given the performance per watt, are these destined to make up computer farms?
I have no idea. But I know the current Mini is there already, so I'm guessing at the very least the Max version will be the preferred server version.
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Matsu
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2022-03-17, 15:04

Can someone explain apple's display scaling? I've read some conflicting stuff online about how Apple handles 3rd party hardware resolutions. When they first doubled everything to create Retina, that made UI design simple enough. Now that there are other resolutions, what exactly is the OS scaling if I use a 4K display? Surely, just the UI elements, not the pixels that display the contents within my windows and apps?

.........................................
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chucker
 
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2022-03-17, 15:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
Can someone explain apple's display scaling? I've read some conflicting stuff online about how Apple handles 3rd party hardware resolutions. When they first doubled everything to create Retina, that made UI design simple enough. Now that there are other resolutions, what exactly is the OS scaling if I use a 4K display? Surely, just the UI elements, not the pixels that display the contents within my windows and apps?
Double and triple is all that macOS and iOS support (alas).

For bitmaps, every pixel becomes 2x2 or 3x3 unless a second bitmap with the @2x or @3x suffix is supplied.

For vector graphics, you just scale.
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kscherer
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2022-03-17, 15:17

As far as the display goes, I find it unsettling that it costs $300 more than a fully functioning iMac.
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kscherer
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2022-03-17, 15:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
[Edit] somehow this post ended up in the wrong thread...
Delete that sucker. Or I can.
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chucker
 
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2022-03-17, 16:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
As far as the display goes, I find it unsettling that it costs $300 more than a fully functioning iMac.
I know I've been sounding like a broken record on this, but… yeaaaaaaah.

Like, if Apple wants to price a display like that, more power to them. But if they then also make macOS less pleasant to use if you use a cheaper display, that's a real bummer.

If the entire iMac with 24-inch 4.5K display is $1300, that means the panel must be about half of that ($650). Maybe two thirds ($850). This suggests $1300 for the LG 27-inch 5K already came with quite a margin.

But the 2020 27-inch iMac with basically the same panel as this Studio Display started at $1800. You wanna tell me just $200 of that was the computer?
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Matsu
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2022-03-17, 16:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Double and triple is all that macOS and iOS support (alas).

For bitmaps, every pixel becomes 2x2 or 3x3 unless a second bitmap with the @2x or @3x suffix is supplied.

For vector graphics, you just scale.
So, if I’m using a 4K display and I’m looking at a photo at 1:1 or a word doc, is the MacOS forcing some sub pixel alteration of how my display handles to image, or just the UI elements?

.........................................
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PB PM
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2022-03-17, 16:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I know I've been sounding like a broken record on this, but… yeaaaaaaah.

Like, if Apple wants to price a display like that, more power to them. But if they then also make macOS less pleasant to use if you use a cheaper display, that's a real bummer.

If the entire iMac with 24-inch 4.5K display is $1300, that means the panel must be about half of that ($650). Maybe two thirds ($850). This suggests $1300 for the LG 27-inch 5K already came with quite a margin.

But the 2020 27-inch iMac with basically the same panel as this Studio Display started at $1800. You wanna tell me just $200 of that was the computer?
This. It turns an affordable powerhouse computer into almost a $4000 starting point if you go with the studio display. Considering you can get a similar rated monitor for under $1000, it's kind of crazy.
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chucker
 
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2022-03-17, 16:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
So, if I’m using a 4K display and I’m looking at a photo at 1:1 or a word doc, is the MacOS forcing some sub pixel alteration of how my display handles to image, or just the UI elements?
The short answer is yes, bitmaps as well. If it didn't, your images would appear way too small.

Suppose you have a 21-inch 4K display. If you run it at actual native 4K, everything will be very small, but OTOH, it'll be "native" — as sharp as it gets.

If, however, you run it at 2K @ 2x, bitmaps may be upscaled to 200%, if they don't have the full resolution, so they'll be a bit pixelated. Stuff that is available in full resolution (e.g., text, or high-resolution bitmaps) will be sharp.

The bigger problem is that you likely won't get a 21-inch 4K display, since those are rare. It'll be 24-inch or perhaps 27-inch. At that point, 1) you'll probably find running it at native 4K to be too small, still, and 2) you'll find 2K @ 2x much too large. Instead, what you can do is have macOS oversample the resolution to 4.5K (24 inches) or 5K (27 inches) and then run that at 2x. This comes with a performance impact and some added blurriness.
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Matsu
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2022-03-17, 16:44

I think i'd be OK with a native 4K display at 27-32". Pixelated UI elements, or over large ones, aren't a big deal I don't think, as long as text in docs and web pages and, crucially, photo pixels aren't disturbed when I want to see the 1:1...

.........................................
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chucker
 
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2022-03-17, 16:55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
I think i'd be OK with a native 4K display at 27-32". Pixelated UI elements, or over large ones, aren't a big deal I don't think, as long as text in docs and web pages and, crucially, photo pixels aren't disturbed when I want to see the 1:1...
Well, you can get that.

There's the Huawei MateView. 4K, 3:2, IPS, 500 nits, about $800.

There's also countless cheaper 27-inch ones on Amazon, ranging from $240 to $700. Including an LG with 400 nits and IPS (and even 60W power delivery), for $480.

Which, like I said. The pricing on the LG Ultrafine and the Apple Studio Display is just way out of whack. Part of that has got to be lacking economies of scale, but I imagine the margin is still quite high.

(Yes, Apples does offer some niceties, like a webcam with Center Stage*, better charging, better integration, yadda yadda. But you do pay for it.)

*) which, over in Microsoft land, they want $800 for. Just the webcam.
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Matsu
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2022-03-17, 17:18

Retina is an interesting thing. At about 220 ppi it's different from most displays I've used, and is probably as good way to assess image sharpening on screen as one can get. 240-300ppi would be ideal, but it's not that hard to soft proof on a 110ppi screen either. 4K is going to be between 136-163ppi depending on 32 or 27" screen. Without spending Eizo or NEC Spectraview $$$, would be interesting to see what can be had that calibrates well down to about 120 nits, offers wide gamut (DCI-P3 or AdobeRGB) and offers true 10 bit color...

.........................................
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psmith2.0
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2022-03-17, 18:45

Gruber just tore the new 27" Studio Display a new one.
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Matsu
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2022-03-17, 21:57

Looks like the problems are almost surely entirely software related. His assessment of the panel is that it’s excellent.

But now I go back to a previous thought: how much margin is in the Studio Display at $1599? I’ve a feeling that there’s enough there that a very well specified iMac 27” could come along at 1999 and look like a screaming deal relative to a Mac Mini plus studio display and sit right where this audience sees a hypothetical “mini-pro” would exist, or between a mini and a studio. They re-couple the display here to sell the value proposition of a higher end iMac in that specific segment, and that’s how they thread that needle: you can de-couple but you either have to go lower or higher, nothing for you right there.

M1 = mini and 24” iMac
M1Pro = MacBook Pro and 27” iMac
M1Max = entry level Mac Studio
M1Ultra = high end Mac Studio

Last edited by Matsu : 2022-03-18 at 03:07.
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Frank777
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2022-03-17, 22:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Part of that has got to be lacking economies of scale...
Yep. The iMac is more restrictive (well, except for RAM) but the form factor and pricing meant it saw more mainstream adoption than something like the Studio.
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Frank777
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2022-03-18, 00:59

Hmmm. The UltraFine 5K will return and compete with the Studio Display.

More choice is always better, although adding Gruber's mentioned Opal webcam pushes the price up to the Studio Display's.

I welcome the LG with open arms, but I think it will have to sharpen its pricing a bit to be a big seller.
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chucker
 
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2022-03-18, 04:30

Quote:
Speaking of software updates for the Studio Display, you can check the “display firmware version” in System Information, under “Graphics/Displays”. There, you can see that not only does the Studio Display run iOS, it literally runs iOS 15.4: “Version 15.4 (Build 19E241)”. That’s iOS 15.4 right down to the build number — 19E241 is the same build number as iOS 15.4 and iPadOS 15.4.

I shouldn’t be surprised by this but I am. But this means that if the camera image quality issues can be remedied/improved via a software update, we’re not waiting for a bug fix release for MacOS 12, but for iOS 15. Or both? I’m curious to see how software updates for the Studio Display work.
So it's an A13, so it makes sense that they need an OS similar to iOS to drive it, sure. I guess also in the sense that Center Stage already exists on various iPads, so the software portion must already exist somewhere in iOS.

But, also, really? Their monolithic development model here is… unusual, to say the least. If a critical bug happens to the display (like, let's say, the camera performing poorly, but just pulling that out my hat), they have to wait for and/or schedule an update to iOS/iPadOS to supply a fix? That doesn't seems sustainable. It also helps explain how this issue happened in the first place: they were mostly busy getting iOS/iPadOS/macOS/watchOS/tvOS/audioOS (did I miss one?) 15.4/12.3/8.4/etc. over the finish line, and in the course of that introduced a bug or regression (i.e., re-introduced a bug) that affected the Studio Display. It explains why it wasn't caught sooner, too.
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PB PM
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2022-03-18, 09:46

Kind of crazy to think of a screen as needing that powerful a CPU, or a full blown OS to do it’s thing. Does that mean one day you won’t be able to use that display because Apple won’t support that OS version anymore? I say that because one of the best parts of an external displays is how long a good unit can be used for. As long as the backlight holds up there is no reason it couldn’t be used indefinitely.
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chucker
 
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2022-03-18, 09:55

My understanding is the display part is just DisplayPort over USB-C, and the camera is just a USB camera (UVC) like any webcam.

The features like Center Stage will probably stop working at some point, though.
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PB PM
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2022-03-18, 10:00

Interesting, so Center stage only works with Apple monitors then? I figured that would be done by the device that was using it, not the screen. Having not paid much attention to the feature, I kind of missed the details about the backend of it. Need to look it up later.

Edit, looked it up. Kind of meh feature, but then again I don’t do much video conferencing.
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