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The Best Windows Notebooks
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Kraetos
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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2007-07-15, 16:47

You know, its ironic. Who makes the best Windows machines these days?

Apple.

For three main reasons:

1) Design. You can find machines thinner and lighter than the MacBook Pro. You can find machines more powerful than the MacBook Pro. But can you find one as thin and as powerful as the MacBook Pro? For the price? No, you really can't. At least, I've never seen one, and I've seen a lot of notebooks.

2) Boot Camp drivers. Who uses Boot Camp on a regular basis? The drivers just keep getting better. They make Windows feel more Mac like. The volume, brightness, eject keys use the same GUI elements as they do on the Mac side of things. The backlit keyboard works. The iSight works. Two finger scroll and two finger right click works. The GPU and Wireless drivers work flawlessly, and are completely unobtrusive compared to the "actual" Windows drivers. I have used many PCs. Apple makes the best Windows drivers. For instance, most wireless drivers require you to install Linksys or Netgear drivers which are obtrusive and crappy. The GPU driver for the X1600 is a dream to use compared to the ATi Catalyst bullshit.

3) Apple apps for windows. iTunes. Safari. They aren't as good as their counterparts on the Mac side of things, but they do a lot to make Windows feel more Mac-like. Safari isn't really usable in its current form, but it is progressing and I think the release version will be superb.

I've used a lot of Windows boxes. Hell, I've built them myself. But using Windows on a MacBook Pro trumps them all. Its crazy, when you think about it. Apple makes Windows better. Go figure.

Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.
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neiltc13
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Join Date: Jan 2006
 
2007-07-15, 17:42

I think this topic would have served a better purpose on a pro-Windows message board. I'm not going to post "I agree" because I'm sure there will be a queue of people here ready to do that.
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turbulentfurball
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2007-07-15, 17:44

I agree with all that was said but:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos
Two finger scroll and two finger right click works.
That needs a bit of working on. In my experience, two finger scroll barely works, and when it does, it's far from smooth.
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Windowsrookie
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2007-07-15, 17:44

Well, I agree if that's what you're looking for. But, Other PC manufactures are good and offer many more choices. (Like HP, Lenovo, Falcon Northwest, etc.)
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Windowsrookie
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2007-07-15, 17:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbulentfurball View Post
I agree with all that was said but:
That needs a bit of working on. In my experience, two finger scroll barely works, and when it does, it's far from smooth.
It has always worked perfectly for me, even on my 12" PB.
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turbulentfurball
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2007-07-15, 17:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windowsrookie View Post
It has always worked perfectly for me, even on my 12" PB.
In BootCamp. Duh.
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almost2mac
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Join Date: Jul 2006
 
2007-07-15, 17:55

I will actually agree.

My iMac runs XP better than any beige box I've had. It's the drivers. I would assume if Microsoft knew *exactly* what hardware they were dealing with they might come close to how well Apple does it.

What's funny is I used to be one of the "every app is full screen" people, but on a widescreen monitor that is ridiculous. I've started using windows like a mac, moving icons to the right side, and resizing windows. It's always disappointing when expose doesn't work!
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Kraetos
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2007-07-15, 18:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by almost2mac View Post
It's the drivers. I would assume if Microsoft knew *exactly* what hardware they were dealing with they might come close to how well Apple does it.
Bingo. Dell, HP, Lenovo and Sony are more concerned with bleeding money from you than they are with actually improving the experience. Between that and the "everything and the kitchen sink" model lineups they have, it would be very time consuming to perfect the drivers for each model.

Apple, on the other hand, has about a dozen configurations to work with. And when you burn that drivers disc, its specific to your computer.

Alienware is close to this as well. Fewer hardware configs to worry about means they can ship with pretty good drivers, and they do.

You know, the other think going on here is when you start up your Mac in Windows, it doesn't come preloaded with crapware, like anti-virus software that doesn't work well, slows your machine down, and makes you pay a subscription after 30 days.

Sometimes I wonder; if Microsoft made hardware, would Windows "feel" better on Microsoft PCs? Of course, Dell and the Wintel crew would be up in arms if this happened.

I'm excited to see where Boot Camp goes when Leopard is out.

Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.
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Kraetos
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2007-07-15, 18:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbulentfurball View Post
I agree with all that was said but:
That needs a bit of working on. In my experience, two finger scroll barely works, and when it does, it's far from smooth.
Yeah. It works most of the time for me, but it's a little rough. Still, the fact that Apple is trying to make the Windows experience better for their customers says a lot.

Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.
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Windowsrookie
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2007-07-15, 18:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
Alienware is close to this as well. Fewer hardware configs to worry about means they can ship with pretty good drivers, and they do.
Actually, Dell owns Alienware. I'm not sure if there are separate driver developers for each brand or not though.
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ast3r3x
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2007-07-15, 18:39

I'm still hoping that Leopard will eventually get that fast boot camp switching, I will start using that instead of Parallels if it would come out.
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Partial
Stallion
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Milwaukee
 
2007-07-15, 18:58

I saw a Core 2 Duo (2ghz), 2 gb ram (667 mhz), 160gb HDD, 15.4" display (1440x900orwhatever), and all the manuals, ac adapter, etc for 600 shipped on eBay. I think it was a gateway or a dell and from a power seller so it was legit. He seemed to be selling many refurbished machines so the deal may still be out there.

I don't think you'll beat that deal anywhere. I would pounce on that in a second if I carried a five figure balance in my bank account.
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Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
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2007-07-15, 19:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by tensdanny38 View Post
I saw a Core 2 Duo (2ghz), 2 gb ram (667 mhz), 160gb HDD, 15.4" display (1440x900orwhatever), and all the manuals, ac adapter, etc for 600 shipped on eBay. I think it was a gateway or a dell and from a power seller so it was legit. He seemed to be selling many refurbished machines so the deal may still be out there.

I don't think you'll beat that deal anywhere. I would pounce on that in a second if I carried a five figure balance in my bank account.
That's nice, but...what does that have to do with this thread?
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Kraetos
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2007-07-15, 19:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windowsrookie View Post
Actually, Dell owns Alienware. I'm not sure if there are separate driver developers for each brand or not though.
Yes yes, I know. But Alienware is completely compartmentalized from Dell proper, and Dell wants to keep it that way.

And yes, I've owned Dells and Alienwares; completely different out of the box experience.

Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.
  quote
Kraetos
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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2007-07-15, 19:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by tensdanny38 View Post
I saw a Core 2 Duo (2ghz), 2 gb ram (667 mhz), 160gb HDD, 15.4" display (1440x900orwhatever), and all the manuals, ac adapter, etc for 600 shipped on eBay. I think it was a gateway or a dell and from a power seller so it was legit. He seemed to be selling many refurbished machines so the deal may still be out there.

I don't think you'll beat that deal anywhere. I would pounce on that in a second if I carried a five figure balance in my bank account.
You get what you pay for. You don't know where they cut corners, e.g. budget mobo, cheap ram, flimsy case, etc. There's a lot more to a computer than its specs on paper.

Plus, it probably doesn't have things like bluetooth, DVI out, gigabit ethernet, 802.11n, etc.

Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.
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Partial
Stallion
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Milwaukee
 
2007-07-16, 00:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
You get what you pay for. You don't know where they cut corners, e.g. budget mobo, cheap ram, flimsy case, etc. There's a lot more to a computer than its specs on paper.

Plus, it probably doesn't have things like bluetooth, DVI out, gigabit ethernet, 802.11n, etc.
That's a load of crap. Budget motherboard? Do certain circuit boards conduct electricity better than others? What you could argue would be the firmware and whatnot I suppose, but I still think thats a weak argument. It wasn't a via chipset, it was a centrino duo chipset.

I am fairly certain it had all those things except 802.11n(which isn't prevalent today anyway) or DVI-out.

Ram is ram is ram is ram. I bet you're one of the guys who won't buy the generic brand of milk from a grocery store when they're the exact same thing. Maybe the CAS is one higher? So what? So your DVD might copy in 5 minutes, 34.444444 seconds instead of 5 minutes, 34.444443 seconds?

Flimsy case and build quality would be my one concern. Since most people don't keep computers more than 3-4 years these days (and in the case of the excessively rich high school/college crowd on these boards, 3-4 months ), I don't think it will be an issue at all.
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bassplayinMacFiend
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Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2007-07-16, 07:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by tensdanny38 View Post
That's a load of crap. Budget motherboard? Do certain circuit boards conduct electricity better than others? What you could argue would be the firmware and whatnot I suppose, but I still think thats a weak argument. It wasn't a via chipset, it was a centrino duo chipset.
The placement of circuitry does affect whether there'll be RF interference, which would cause slowdown due to error correction / data resends. Also, cheaper motherboards will use cheaper support parts such as capacitors and power transistors. Borderline parts such as these affect power quality (noise) and stability (voltage levels). Unclean power can lead to sporadic crashes and data corruption.

Just because a motherboard has Intel chips throughout doesn't mean it is better designed then an NFI or Via motherboard.
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alcimedes
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2007-07-16, 07:44

Apple makes great notebooks as long as you want exactly what Apple happens to be offering.

Many people don't. If the MacBook and MacBook Pro aren't what you're looking for, Apple is out.

Also, the line that Apple uses better components so costs more is a pile of crap. It's simply not true. They use the same parts, good or bad, as everyone else. (Think back to the leaky capacitors, batteries from Sony that blow up etc.)

They don't even have a decent QA process anymore. (which they used to) See the aversion to rev. A products now. (As an example, PowerBook whitespots on the screen, latches that don't latch, MacBooks powering off with no warning due to an internal short, power supplies on G5 iMacs failing consistently etc. The list goes on and on)

No, what you pay for with Apple is OSX and the design of your hardware. That's it.

For some it's worth it, for many it's not.

Google is your frenemy.
Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty
I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me
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Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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2007-07-16, 07:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Apple makes great notebooks as long as you want exactly what Apple happens to be offering.

Many people don't. If the MacBook and MacBook Pro aren't what you're looking for, Apple is out.
I've been thinking a lot lately about Apple's Mac line and where it's going to go from here.

I think it will be increasingly notebook-centric. That might sound obvious, but I'm not just talking about adding more notebooks - I'm talking about making fewer desktops.

Quite simply, I'm convinced that the mid-range headless desktop will never happen, unless Apple opens OS X up to third parties again. Not because Apple hates people who don't buy AIOs - but because more and more people are buying notebooks instead. And it makes sense - pretty much any notebook can do what most people need a computer to do. Hell, a $200 notebook can.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
  quote
bassplayinMacFiend
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Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2007-07-16, 08:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Also, the line that Apple uses better components so costs more is a pile of crap. It's simply not true. They use the same parts, good or bad, as everyone else. (Think back to the leaky capacitors, batteries from Sony that blow up etc.)
If you were referring to my post, I wasn't saying or even inferring Apple uses better components. I specifically did not list a manufacturer because I don't know who orders what from where. I was trying to show there is a reason a $70 motherboard will possibly cause you more problems than a $200 motherboard and that's usually due to more R&D spent on the more expensive board and more cost-cutting measures used on the $70 motherboard.

Still, I never once mentioned Apple in my post, so if you were responding to my post then understand that.

Believe me, with a Rev A iMac G5 I know all too well about the Nichicon capacitor troubles.
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Graphguy
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Join Date: Oct 2005
 
2007-07-16, 15:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by bassplayinMacFiend View Post
If you were referring to my post, I wasn't saying or even inferring Apple uses better components. I specifically did not list a manufacturer because I don't know who orders what from where. I was trying to show there is a reason a $70 motherboard will possibly cause you more problems
I agree that there's no Apple premium on HW "quality" these days. Their notebooks are made by asustek, if I'm not mistaken, which makes something like a third of all notebooks out there. From the 3-400 dollar ones, all the way up to top of the line machines. Austek and Quantas make most of notebooks these days, so there aren't the huge differences in quality that you might have seen years ago.

And the same thing can be said with most PC-hardware. Two companies make 90% of the graphiccards out there, the mobo-market is pretty much split three ways, and so on. All that means that the percentage spent on RD is way down. For a company like MSI, there might be 20 dollars difference in component costs on their cheapest and their top of the line motherboards, the same thing is especially true in the graphics-market (Nvidia spent X amount on developing their newest chipgeneration, andthose money paid for all of their current chips. Not like years ago when a company like S3 could spend all of their RD budget on one high-end chip).
  quote
Graphguy
can't type
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
 
2007-07-16, 15:56

Quote:
1) Design. You can find machines thinner and lighter than the MacBook Pro. You can find machines more powerful than the MacBook Pro. But can you find one as thin and as powerful as the MacBook Pro? For the price? No, you really can't. At least, I've never seen one, and I've seen a lot of notebooks.
Design is the one thing that Apple was always good at, if you happen to like their design. But I disagree that their offerings are the best out there right now. At some times they are, but not currently. Have you for example seen Dells newest laptop? The 1330 comes with next generation that aren't even available in the MacBook Pros, and at a much better price point. It also come with a LED-screen which, correct me if Im wrong, I very might well be, that isn't available on regular Macbooks.
And not to mention, with a windows laptop you actually get touchpad technology from the 90ies (more than one button )


Quote:
2) Boot Camp drivers. Who uses Boot Camp on a regular basis? The drivers just keep getting better. They make Windows feel more Mac like. The volume, brightness, eject keys use the same GUI elements as they do on the Mac side of thApple makes the best Windows drivers. For instance, most wireless drivers require you to install Linksys or Netgear drivers which are obtrusive and crappy. The GPU driver for the X1600 is a dream to use compared to the ATi Catalyst bullshit.
I haven't had driver problems on my windows machines since way before XP SP2 came out, and if you get a computer that's designed for Vista, you shouldn't see many problems either. And I don't believe Apple writes all of their drivers themselves, so it's hardly a question of Apple writers being much better.

Quote:
3) Apple apps for windows. iTunes. Safari. They aren't as good as their counterparts on the Mac side of things, but they do a lot to make Windows feel more Mac-like. Safari isn't really usable in its current form, but it is progressing and I think the release version will be superb.
Meh, I've never been a huge fan of their apps. Sure Iphoto is allright, but there are better apps out there for PCs. As for Itunes, I used to use it, but prefer Windows Media Player 11 anytime. And Safari? Please! That POS used to crash on me all the time. First thing I did when I got my G4 Imac, was to install Firefox instead. Now THAT's a browser.

Quote:
But using Windows on a MacBook Pro trumps them all. Its crazy, when you think about it. Apple makes Windows better. Go figure.
I was considering getting a macbook to run Windows on it, as you might remember, and it is a nice machine. If money wasn't an issue, I'd probably prefer a high end Toshiba or Sony though.
Actually untill there is a update, I'd take the Dell 1330 over a Macbook anytime...
  quote
RichieB
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2007-07-17, 13:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphguy View Post
I was considering getting a macbook to run Windows on it, as you might remember...
Umm... I configured the Dell 1330 on the dell store to match the Macbook specs and it cost: $1665. A similarly configured Macbook costs $1378.

DELL SPECS as configured:

SYSTEM COLOR Pearl White
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Processor T7300 (2.0GHz/800Mhz FSB, 4MB Cache)
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows® Vista Home Premium Edition
LCD AND CAMERA Standard Display with 2.0 Megapixel Webcam
MEMORY 1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz
HARD DRIVE 120GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM)
OPTICAL DRIVE CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW Drive)
VIDEO CARD Intel® Integrated Graphics Media Accelerator X3100
SOUND OPTIONS High Definition Audio 2.0
FINGERPRINT SCANNER No Fingerprint Reader
BATTERY OPTIONS 56Whr Lithium Ion Battery (6 cell)
WIRELESS CARDS Intel Next-Gen Wireless-N Mini-card
BLUETOOTH OPTIONS Built-in Bluetooth capability (2.0 EDR)

Macbook Specs as configured:
Specifications

2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 4MB shared L2 cache running at full processor speed
667MHz frontside bus
1GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x512
120GB Serial ATA @ 5400 rpm
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
iWork '06 preinstalled
AirPort Extreme Card & Bluetooth Built-in 10/100/1000BASE-T Gigabit Ethernet (RJ-45 connector)
Built-in AirPort Extreme Wi-Fi (based on IEEE 802.11n draft specification)
Built-in Bluetooth 2.0 + Enhanced Data Rate (EDR)

Here tonight, we have, ah, apple and orange. We all different, but in the end, we all fruit.
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Partial
Stallion
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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2007-07-17, 13:18

Not a fair comparison because you're comparing Santa Rosa (brand new, top of the line currently) components to the previous generations(within the MacBook).
  quote
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
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2007-07-17, 13:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by tensdanny38 View Post
Not a fair comparison because you're comparing Santa Rosa (brand new, top of the line currently) components to the previous generations(within the MacBook).
Which is why, I'm assuming, he put a higher clocked processor in the MacBook in an attempt to even things out.

Obviously, such a comparison won't be able to be totally fair until the MacBook is on Santa Rosa, as well.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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Fahrenheit
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2007-07-17, 13:24

Hang about...is Graphguy, from his posts, only on here to troll? Why has he not been ridiculed yet!!?
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RichieB
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2007-07-17, 13:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by tensdanny38 View Post
Not a fair comparison because you're comparing Santa Rosa (brand new, top of the line currently) components to the previous generations(within the MacBook).
FSB aside, how much difference would Santa-rosa make to the typical end-user, in his/her day to day home use?
  quote
Kraetos
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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2007-07-17, 13:37

I'll take a two finger right click over a two button track pad any day of the week. Much easier to drop your middle finger to the pad than to move the thumb to the right.

As for Santa Rosa? Most of the stuff in Santa Rosa is already in the MacBook, i.e. 802.11n. LED MacBooks are probably right around the corner. And yes, the XPS 1330 costs more than a similarly configured MacBook.

Vista driver problems? You're in the minority. It's pretty widely acknowledged that Vista has huge driver problems. Especially if you don't have a Vista-ready PC, which is most of them. I suspect SP1 will make Vista ready for real usage, and the good news is, its right around the corner.

Quote:
And I don't believe Apple writes all of their drivers themselves, so it's hardly a question of Apple writers being much better.
What? Apple doesn't write their own hardware drivers? Of course they do. The one exception is the sound driver, and its STILL better than most Windows drivers I've used - and I've used a lot.

iPhoto and iTunes are much easier to use than their PC counterparts. I will concede that the Windows version of iTunes is a resource hog.

As for Firefox? As of Safari 3, functionality is pretty on par - but boy, is Firefox ugly. I try to use Firefox sometimes but I can't get past the interface quirks. It's better on the PC but on the Mac its one ugly duckling. Safari 3 for Windows, unsurprisingly, is still pretty unstable. But, remember, it is a beta.

All that said, the XPS 1330 is a nice machine, but I wouldn't be caught dead owning a Dell. I'd wait to see what the next MacBook rev brings.

Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.
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bassplayinMacFiend
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2007-07-17, 13:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichieB View Post
FSB aside, how much difference would Santa-rosa make to the typical end-user, in his/her day to day home use?
I believe (IIRC, YMMV, etc., I could be wrong) Santa Rosa allows use of GMA 965, which is supposedly a huge improvement over GMA 950. This is mostly due to inclusion of hardware T&L (very hard not to type T&A right there).
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Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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2007-07-17, 13:49

And I'm sure saying this is only going to cement my apparent reputation as a design whore, but...

The XPS 1330 is really freakin' ugly.

For all the talk about how it's the "first Dell with design" and the "thinnest 13.3" notebook ever" (at it's thinnest point, natch), I'm really not seeing the appeal.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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