[turtle]

Drew hit is again on exactly what the issue is, distrust. Lack of trust.

It all boils down to that no matter what your political persuasion. People aren't getting their shots because they don't trust "x". Feel free to replace "x" with whatever fits for their situation.

[PB PM]

Trust is a big issue for sure. For people who fear the government, I don’t see the issue, the government in the US didn’t make the vaccine. For people who don’t trust big pharma, I get it.

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by chucker There absolutely is a strong correlation.

I'll accept that. But is the correlation primarily because of their political persuasion, or just the fact that the crisis is most severe in big, dense cities?

This is a complicated problem, and what I see is a lot of simple-minded blaming of the other side.

Originally Posted by chucker The "Chinese lab leak" isn't really proven, and it's kind of moot. If the Chinese are to blame, all the more reason to protect yourself, no?

I was being a bit cute with that comment, though I do currently think most of the evidence does break that way.

And yes, the idea that this is a man-made thing, not a regular virus, has been one of the big incentives to get the vaccine on the conservative side.

Originally Posted by chucker Funny how having the largest military budget or being invasive about the female body never counts as big government.

Christians see abortion as the murder of an unborn child. No one complains about "big government" when it comes to protecting life.
In terms of the Military Industrial Complex, there are lots of Christians with concerns, some going for far as to withhold taxes as a matter of conscience.

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by turtle Drew hit is again on exactly what the issue is, distrust. Lack of trust. It all boils down to that no matter what your political persuasion. People aren't getting their shots because they don't trust "x". Feel free to replace "x" with whatever fits for their situation.

Originally Posted by PB PM Trust is a big issue for sure. For people who fear the government, I don’t see the issue, the government in the US didn’t make the vaccine. For people who don’t trust big pharma, I get it.

There are a couple of Twitter threads counting the lies and political hypocrisies that have been going on since the outbreak began.

I think the initial lie: "Masks don't work" (when in fact officials were just trying to keep supplies focused on first responders) did an incredible amount of damage in public trust. Here in Canada, government assurances that blood clots from Astrazeneca wasn't a real issue, and then advising people to mix vaccines without any real studies to back it up, have everyone second-guessing government announcements.

[PB PM]

While I agree that many mistakes have been made by the government of Canada, flipping, flopping and all, I also realize some of it comes with the territory of dealing with a quickly evolving situation. Does that absolve them of blame? No. Then again opposition’s stance was to literally do nothing at all, and keep doing things as normal, maybe for just a few months, but it might have been longer. That would have been the wrong approach as well. Nobody is without blame if you look at it that way.

I for one expect people to make mistakes, and be wrong sometimes. It’s called being human. What I don’t like is people who can never admit to being wrong. In all the years I’ve followed politics (around 30 years now), I have not seen a government lie about something and come clean about it later, not one. If I voted based only on one group or another’s mistakes, none of them would qualify for my vote. I for one will not vote based on individual things that happened just due to COVID, but based on stances on all issues. I stopped caring who the party leaders are a long time ago, they are all self-centred narcissists anyway.

But back to COVID trust issues. I don’t think any of us can change other peoples minds, all we can do is present what we know, and let them make choices based on that. Sometimes people just need to have a little faith and realize the whole world isn’t out to get them, we are just little peons, nobody really cares about us that much.

[Dr. Bobsky]

Originally Posted by Frank777 There are a couple of Twitter threads counting the lies and political hypocrisies that have been going on since the outbreak began. I think the initial lie: "Masks don't work" (when in fact officials were just trying to keep supplies focused on first responders) did an incredible amount of damage in public trust.

They were pretty clearly stating that they do not encourage mask use because first responders need them. At no point did they actually come out and say they do not work.

[drewprops]

About 6 months ago I decided that Dr. Fauci needed to step out of the spotlight.

It's not because he's made any mistakes (mask-gate is another conservative destabilization effort, like Benghazi).

It's not because he's politically motivated (Fauci has been discussing these same issues for decades, long before Covid).

The reason why Fauci needs to step out of the spotlight is because conservatives were successful in turning that spotlight away from Covid and onto him.

And no man exists without vanity. Every field of human endeavor is riddled with ego. Science is a field that values proof over puffery, but that's more in the long run. Up close, in the midst of short term battle, there's plenty of personal reputation-polishing and aggrandizement. Celebrity is where it's at!

And the shit we're facing needs messaging that is greater than any one man.

Don't get me wrong, we still need Fauci.

He just needs to remove himself from the focus.

Because Delta Plus is coming.

..

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Frank777 I'll accept that. But is the correlation primarily because of their political persuasion, or just the fact that the crisis is most severe in big, dense cities? This is a complicated problem, and what I see is a lot of simple-minded blaming of the other side.

Best as I can tell: cases are concentrated in places with high population density (even adjusting for population), which makes sense. Hard for the virus to spread where people don't live. So, no political correlation there.

However, vaccination rates do seem politically correlated, and maybe, just maybe, people like Carlson sowing doubt about the vaccine have something to do with that.

Originally Posted by Frank777 Christians see abortion as the murder of an unborn child. No one complains about "big government" when it comes to protecting life.

Some libertarians absolutely do.

Originally Posted by Frank777 In terms of the Military Industrial Complex, there are lots of Christians with concerns, some going for far as to withhold taxes as a matter of conscience.

Or, they could, I dunno, protest foreign policy and vote for candidates with alternatives.

But yes, people who are more consistent in their small-government beliefs exist. They seem rather drowned out by "we want small government and the government is bad except for where we believe only the government can save us from impending doom" folks, though.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Frank777 There are a couple of Twitter threads counting the lies and political hypocrisies that have been going on since the outbreak began. I think the initial lie: "Masks don't work" (when in fact officials were just trying to keep supplies focused on first responders) did an incredible amount of damage in public trust.

That messaging was damaging, but… a "lie"? Why would someone lie about that?

Originally Posted by Frank777 Here in Canada, government assurances that blood clots from Astrazeneca wasn't a real issue

I mean, it basically wasn't, and the European messaging (for a few weeks) that it might be an issue caused more harm than good.

Public health messaging isn't about "lies". It's about tradeoffs between: what's risky, what's economically tenable, etc.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by chucker That messaging was damaging, but… a "lie"? Why would someone lie about that?

It’s how some people decided to interpret what was said. Even I felt that they lied, until I reflected on it just now. The initial message from Heath officers here in Canada was that people don’t need surgical masks because they don’t protect you from the virus. It’s not a lie it’s true, masks don’t stop you from getting COVID. Masks only help reduce the chance of the wearer spreading it, but it doesn’t stop it. I don’t see any lie in that message as a result. It’s easy to make a statement say something it’s not.

[Dr. Bobsky]

Originally Posted by PB PM It’s how some people decided to interpret what was said. Even I felt that they lied, until I reflected on it just now. The initial message from Heath officers here in Canada was that people don’t need surgical masks because they don’t protect you from the virus. It’s not a lie it’s true, masks don’t stop you from getting COVID. Masks only help reduce the chance of the wearer spreading it, but it doesn’t stop it. I don’t see any lie in that message as a result. It’s easy to make a statement say something it’s not.

To be sure: the masks probably do both, but the protection of others is more significant than the protection of self. However, they didn't know this at the time, and previous epidemiological studies on droplet carried viruses suggested that masks would have negligible benefits compared to the risks of running out for primary care workers. And yet those ideas were also proven to be based on a false pretence -- covid19 is a properly airborne virus, it stays afloat in confined spaces for a long time. No one knew this. Hell, the definition of airborne has changed over the last year because of studies on covid19 droplets. There's now a larger upper limit on the size of particles that can be considered airborne.

Does this mean that people claiming the virus isn't airborne last year were lying? No. Were they telling a falsehood? No. Were they giving advice on the basis of the then credible science? Yes.

Honestly, the public needs to grow up. Scientists do not know the future. We're pretty good at telling you where the hard limits of our knowledge are; but these come across as coded speech. If a scientist tells you they think something is true: it means they're fairly certain given the data. If they tell you they know something is true: it's, for all intents and purposes, true. These statements have different confidence levels. Yet the public thinks they mean the same thing.

This is partially the fault of the scientists, mostly the fault of the policy gurus who decide with bravado that the public cant deal with doubt, and substantially the fault of a public that is cowed in the face of any technical knowledge. That's not the scientists fault: we honestly try to bring actual knowledge to the public, and get ignored when we start actually describing what we know.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by PB PM It’s how some people decided to interpret what was said. Even I felt that they lied, until I reflected on it just now. The initial message from Heath officers here in Canada was that people don’t need surgical masks because they don’t protect you from the virus. It’s not a lie it’s true, masks don’t stop you from getting COVID. Masks only help reduce the chance of the wearer spreading it, but it doesn’t stop it. I don’t see any lie in that message as a result. It’s easy to make a statement say something it’s not.

My impression is that multiple factors played into that recommendation:

• the behavior of the virus was still poorly understood; for example, it was assumed that infection through surfaces would occur a lot more. Hence a lot of guidance towards cleaning those, washing your hands, etc. which turned out not to make a difference.
• in contrast, infection through the nose was underestimated
• on top of this, and here's where things get a little muddy, there were concerns that having everyone buy masks would lead to shortages for health professionals, which could have created a far greater crisis (and, in fact, that did happen to a point: nurses had to start reusing masks for several days, which is quite problematic on its own)

The trick is compacting that down into "should you get a mask?". Which isn't easy regardless, but when you know so little about the virus on top of that, it's almost impossible to do perfect messaging.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Dr. Bobsky Scientists do not know the future. We're pretty good at telling you where the hard limits of our knowledge are; but these come across as coded speech. If a scientist tells you they think something is true: it means they're fairly certain given the data. If they tell you they know something is true: it's, for all intents and purposes, true. These statements have different confidence levels. Yet the public thinks they mean the same thing.

Agreed 100%. Since my dad was a chemistry teacher for 35+ years, I'd like to think he instilled a reasonably good understanding of this concept in me. Guess that's why, even though it might have felt like a lie, it didn't bother me that the stance on masks changed. I remember being against wearing masks, no idea why now it wasn't rational, but then started wearing them months before it was mandated. Still wear one now, even with the mandate lifted.

Not taking science classes in school more seriously is likely one of the biggest regrets of my life, as someone in the horticulture field now I find biology/natural sciences and such fascinating. Of course my dad being a science teacher made me want to avoid it, again not logical I know. I should take some now.

[psmith2.0]

Yeah, we always go the opposite way of our parents, at least in our younger, know-it-all days where we want nothing to do with the family business, traditions, occupational/career paths, etc.

Which always makes me wonder how kids with a pot-smoking, guitar-playing and free-wheeling/spirited dad would “rebel” in that scenario. Get all A’s, go into accounting and love opera/classical music? My parents were VERY young and permissive/open, with a smidge of hippie still attached, which may be the reason I never felt the need to push back and do the drinking/drugs/sneaking out thing throughout my youth/teen years like all my friends and peers were doing. I did well in school (the whole “gifted”/advanced classes shtick), never got in trouble, “teacher’s pet” on multiple occasions/grades, was in the Chattanooga Boys Choir for six years (which, looking back, was, hands down, the fruitiest thing I’ve ever been part of ). Subconsciously I must’ve been sticking it to my parents! “Oh yeah? Well take this…I’m gonna sing some old hymns in Latin while wearing a red vest and slacks!” I think this stuff is interesting. You can’t have a house of “matching” multiple generations. I think it’s impossible. Whatever the parents are, the kids wanna be the other way. And it gets extra funny if the parents are the rudderless wild-asses and then you see the kids acting like responsible, sober little business tycoons and ministers. “Why can’t you guys be authoritarian tight-asses like all my friends’ parents?!”

[Dr. Bobsky]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Yeah, we always go the opposite way of our parents, at least in our younger, know-it-all days where we want nothing to do with the family business, traditions, occupational/career paths, etc. Which always makes me wonder how kids with a pot-smoking, guitar-playing and free-wheeling/spirited dad would “rebel” in that scenario. Get all A’s, go into accounting and love opera/classical music? My parents were VERY young and permissive/open, with a smidge of hippie still attached, which may be the reason I never felt the need to push back and do the drinking/drugs/sneaking out thing throughout my youth/teen years like all my friends and peers were doing. I did well in school (the whole “gifted”/advanced classes shtick), never got in trouble, “teacher’s pet” on multiple occasions/grades, was in the Chattanooga Boys Choir for six years (which, looking back, was, hands down, the fruitiest thing I’ve ever been part of ). Subconsciously I must’ve been sticking it to my parents! “Oh yeah? Well take this…I’m gonna sing some old hymns in Latin while wearing a red vest and slacks!” I think this stuff is interesting. You can’t have a house of “matching” multiple generations. I think it’s impossible. Whatever the parents are, the kids wanna be the other way. And it gets extra funny if the parents are the rudderless wild-asses and then you see the kids acting like responsible, sober little business tycoons and ministers. “Why can’t you guys be authoritarian tight-asses like all my friends’ parents?!”

I don’t think this phenomena is anything more than perception. Your view of your parents is weighed heavily on the emotionally wrought moments of late teenagehood early twenties — and all children seem to believe they are rebelling against their parents instincts or strictures.

For me I never did anything for or against my parents. I never cared if they were proud or worried. I honestly never wanted them involved in my life, and so they weren’t. This is commonly a recipe for disaster — I had child psychologists wonder aloud why I didn’t display heightened criminality of other children in my position. I blame the good fortune of having people who were not family show genuine, if not care, interest in what I was doing. These relationships in early youth probably preventing me from taking a much darker path.

Long story short: don’t hit children, and rebellion is in the eye of the beholder…

[drewprops]

My contribution to the current 3rd Wave meme, taken at a wedding reception about 4 years ago.




...

[Mac+]

[_Ω_]

so after 68 million days of being covid free hobbiton succumbs to covid lockdown. Wee hobbitses running scared

[kscherer]

It's the ring, stupid!

[drewprops]

Are Mandatory Vaccines Coming?

Late this afternoon Atlanta's annual Labor Day weekend mega-nerdfest announced that it will now require attendees to provide proof of vaccination or proof of a negative Covid test within 72 hours of the beginning of the event, which happens soon.

You might imagine the bedlam happening in the comments section of their Facebook post tonight.

The event is still going to draw tens of thousands of attendees, posing a super duper opportunity for a spike, but I halfway believe that the holdout anti-vaxxers might not come back for several years in protest of this "affront".

People who don't believe in vaccinations are throwing up all sorts of outlandish protests, including outraged cries that mandatory vaccinations are a violation of HIPAA laws (they apparently are not).

It's just a damned mess out there.

One interesting tidbit that I noticed today. The go-to medical person for the State of Georgia said that they will not be pursuing state-directed mandates for nursing home workers, but she did encourage private companies to pick up that mantle.

Since she has been the Governor's right-hand expert on Covid since last year, it makes me wonder whether she is speaking as herself in her capacity as a healthcare chief, or if she's quietly articulating the future methodology of the Governor in encouraging private business to mandate vaccinations.


...

[Frank777]

I don't get the push for mandatory vaccinations here. Maybe some people just like authoritarianism because it requires less thinking.

Ontario is on track right now to have 82% of our 12+ population vaccinated.
So it's a very conservative guess that our current vaccination efforts will peak at around 85%.

When the FDA/Health Canada certify that the vaccines are approved, and no longer 'experimental' (expected in the next couple months), I think the last bastion of holdouts will fall and we'll hit 90-92% at a minimum. By the end of the year, we'll likely be coming up on getting the vaccine in pill form, which will again increase uptake significantly. Again, at least 95%, conservatively speaking.

So why is there this push for vaccination-by-force-of-law? I think some people are just enjoying their newfound power.

[Ryan]

Or it's because we want to get this shit over with and we're tired of being asked to empathize with people who get their medical information off YouTube?

[drewprops]

Originally Posted by Frank777 Maybe some people just like authoritarianism because it requires less thinking.

Lighten up, Francis.

My state has been offering vaccinations to the public since the beginning of the year.

Less than 50% of our citizens are vaccinated.

Our ICUs are full of Covid patients.

My unvaccinated friends still talk about "deep cleanings" as if it's transmitted by touch.

This nerd convention draws 80k+ people on a regular year. Even at 1/3rd normal size, it will provide ripe pickings for a virus with an R0 approaching chicken pox.

It's one thing to force people to do things to prevent them from hurting themselves, but when they can act as carriers to harm others? When an act some define as "freedom" (but really isn't, like attending a car show or a football game or a sci-fi convention) presents a clear case of potential public harm, you've got yourself an opportunity to implement "enhanced" safety measures.

Requiring enhanced security measures sounds sensible until you change the word "required" to "mandated" and then folks climb up on a chair and scream.


...

[Yontsey]

Mandated vaccinations will never happen for this. Best way to get maximum participation is do what Live Nation and now some sporting teams are doing and requiring vaccination cards or 72 hour negative test. A lot of people on the fence would jump on board.

[drewprops]

Well the truth is, absent an actual passport, a lot of the people are just going to create fake vaccination cards. Until that weakness is solved, proof of vaccination is down to trust.


...

[709]

Originally Posted by Frank777 Maybe some people just like authoritarianism because it requires less thinking.

Irony.

[psmith2.0]

We’re never getting out from under this. I realize/accept this now. I’m gonna invest in a mask factory. But also open a biker tavern in Sturgis.

Cover/exploit both ends. I’ll make money from both “the sky is falling” folks and the Alex Jones Fellation Brigade.

I can’t lose!

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 We’re never getting out from under this. I realize/accept this now. I’m gonna invest in a mask factory. But also open a biker tavern in Sturgis. Cover/exploit both ends. I’ll make money from both “the sky is falling” folks and the Alex Jones Fellation Brigade. I can’t lose!

I love you!

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by drewprops Lighten up, Francis. My state has been offering vaccinations to the public since the beginning of the year. Less than 50% of our citizens are vaccinated. Our ICUs are full of Covid patients. My unvaccinated friends still talk about "deep cleanings" as if it's transmitted by touch. This nerd convention draws 80k+ people on a regular year. Even at 1/3rd normal size, it will provide ripe pickings for a virus with an R0 approaching chicken pox. It's one thing to force people to do things to prevent them from hurting themselves, but when they can act as carriers to harm others? When an act some define as "freedom" (but really isn't, like attending a car show or a football game or a sci-fi convention) presents a clear case of potential public harm, you've got yourself an opportunity to implement "enhanced" safety measures. Requiring enhanced security measures sounds sensible until you change the word "required" to "mandated" and then folks climb up on a chair and scream. ...

First of all, that's not my name. You're confusing me with a famous Catholic.

Secondly, the U.S. is never going to get to where Canada is on vaccinations. And if we can't get it done at 90+% participation, you might as well give up now.

The French are already in the streets protesting. All mandating vaccines/ID cards is going to do is start another serious round of protests that will bitterly divide communities, families and workplaces. And I don't think America can afford more division and bitterness right now.

If you feel the vaccinations aren't effective enough or are wearing off, go get a third shot. Or keep wearing a mask in public. But shutting down the entire economy and barring people from society to avoid a virus that stats show the vaccinated are largely protected from, is a really Biden way of doing things.

Originally Posted by 709 Irony.

This should be good. How is my comment on authoritarianism ironic?

[Ryan]

a) The French protest all the time. It's like their version of golf.

b) 70% of the eligible population in the US are vaccinated. I don't think all of the remaining 30% have held off for ideological reasons—people are lazy, or don't think it's worth, or they're afraid of side effects forcing them to take time off.

So let's say half the remaining population are anti-vaxxers. Why should we put up with them for the sake of avoiding division? Why is it on those who've been doing the right thing to coddle them?

We don't let 15% of the population drive around drunk off their ass just because they claim it's their freedom.

Moreover, giving in won't heal a single damn division. It will further embolden an already-dangerous reactionary element that hasn't been told to fuck off nearly enough.