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Roe Vs. Wade Rehash (update: RvW officially dead as of 2022-06-24)


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Roe Vs. Wade Rehash (update: RvW officially dead as of 2022-06-24)
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2022-06-24, 10:17

Same-sex marriage and access to contraception are next on the list. Justice Thomas says as much in his concurring opinion.

Christo-Fascism. Minority rule. What a shitshow.
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Brad
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2022-06-24, 11:00

The USA had a good run.

All good things must come to an end.
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chucker
 
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2022-06-24, 11:10

cool c-c-cool
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Matsu
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2022-06-24, 11:37

I guess I'm going to start boycotting the US.
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Quagmire
meh
 
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2022-06-24, 11:47

Can we give Texas back to Mexico and the Louisiana Purchase back to France?

House GOP is already gunning on abortion access when they retake the House in the fall. This was never about states rights.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-ne...d9895298e7cc40

giggity
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Brad
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2022-06-24, 12:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire View Post
Can we give Texas back to Mexico
Three days ago: The Texas GOP is pushing for a referendum to decide if the state will secede from the US.

I say we let them.
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Quagmire
meh
 
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2022-06-24, 12:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
What a bunch of freaking man-kids.

How many times were the democrats told to accept that Clinton lost in 2016 and now the same people are acting the same way after Trump lost in 2020?

How many times did the democrats say how Trump would act if he lost in 2016 and did exactly that in 2020?

I am done with this country.

Can the WWII generation come back and beat the shit out of everyone today?

giggity
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Elysium
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2022-06-24, 16:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire View Post
Can the WWII generation come back and beat the shit out of everyone today?
Unfortunately their entitled kids are more focused on protecting their 401Ks and retirement fund rather than, you know, standing up for the greater good.

Angry tongue in cheek, but it will get worse before it gets better.

Formerly known as cynical_rock
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Quagmire
meh
 
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2022-06-24, 17:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysium View Post
Unfortunately their entitled kids are more focused on protecting their 401Ks and retirement fund rather than, you know, standing up for the greater good.

Angry tongue in cheek, but it will get worse before it gets better.
I don’t pretend to think the WWII generation would be on our side on issues like abortion, etc.

But I think they would be appalled by Trump and the whole January 6 fiasco. Instead of telling us to move on like the current GOP and pretend it never happened.

giggity
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Elysium
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2022-06-24, 18:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire View Post
I don’t pretend to think the WWII generation would be on our side on issues like abortion, etc.

But I think they would be appalled by Trump and the whole January 6 fiasco. Instead of telling us to move on like the current GOP and pretend it never happened.
Also agree that there are generational divides on right and wrong belief systems. But they would defend to the death the right for all peoples to pursue their own choices in the face of dogma used as a tool to retain power.
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709
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2022-06-24, 19:17

I never had or wanted children, but I can't imagine what's it's like to be a Dad right now to a daughter. How do you tell them that everything is going to be fine if you live in a Republican-controlled state? Especially after SCOTUS finds a reason to ban contraception (or make it a state's choice). "Well, you'll just have to raise your rapist's child because law." "Well, your prom date's pull-out game was weak (see above re: contraception), so here's a child given to a child." "Good luck everyone, I nut here!!!" "Well, we'll just have to go north where they can help us take care of this little problem (but don't tell friends or church or school or anyone, because WE would NEVER)."

AGAIN, the blue states take on the burden of the regressives. Getting more and more tired of that bullshit tbh.

So it goes.

Last edited by 709 : 2022-06-24 at 19:39.
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709
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2022-06-24, 19:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
BUILD THE WALLL ! ! !

I love Texas, lived there for many of my formative years, but yeah. It's getting close to the time to lop a few off. The Yeehawdists have been in control for a while and will likely remain in control due to new gerrymandering.

I doubt it'll happen, but I'd give them 5 years, tops. And no backsies, fuckers. Have your fragile little electric grid and your New Somalia style religious extremism. They'll either be reclaimed by Mexico or die on their back like a curled up scorpion.

So it goes.
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RowdyScot
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2022-06-24, 19:49

Don't forget that Thomas also suggested they look into reinstating sodomy laws. I wish I'd never come back to the US.
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2022-06-24, 20:02

Thomas is a troll and not a serious person in any way. He'd reverse Loving v. Virginia and still gleefully stick his Coke can up his white wife's ass.

He should not only be expelled but questioned heavily on what he and his traitorous wife were involved in trying to overthrow the government.

Alas, that would take Republicans to not be cowards and to do the right, moral thing, but that's just not where they are right now. And maybe never will be again.

So it goes.
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Ryan
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2022-06-24, 21:26

Maybe I should just move back to New Zealand. My job is on their skills shortage list so I could get fast-track residency.
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kieran
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Join Date: Jan 2005
 
2022-06-25, 08:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
I never had or wanted children, but I can't imagine what's it's like to be a Dad right now to a daughter. How do you tell them that everything is going to be fine if you live in a Republican-controlled state? Especially after SCOTUS finds a reason to ban contraception (or make it a state's choice). "Well, you'll just have to raise your rapist's child because law." "Well, your prom date's pull-out game was weak (see above re: contraception), so here's a child given to a child." "Good luck everyone, I nut here!!!" "Well, we'll just have to go north where they can help us take care of this little problem (but don't tell friends or church or school or anyone, because WE would NEVER)."

AGAIN, the blue states take on the burden of the regressives. Getting more and more tired of that bullshit tbh.
I have a daughter who just turned 3 this week. Fortunately, she is completely unaware of what is happening right now. Unfortunately, she can definitely tell that yesterday was tough for her mother and I.

We had our daughter through IVF and ended up donating the unused embryos to science after our daughter was born. That process looks like it could be severely limited in the near future as republicans push to define "fetal personhood" as the moment of fertilization, which is ludicrous. What happens to people who need the help of incredible scientific research to have biological children?

I"m also blown away at the number of people, including people in my own family like my mother, who were overjoyed yesterday that RvW was overturned, even as states implemented numerous anti-abortion laws, with no exceptions for rape/incest/mother's health. I can't even imagine a scenario in which my daughter is legally forced to have a child, but unfortunately, that day has arrived in the US.

We were trying to leave the US to move to the EU prior to Covid, and I foresee that plan coming back into serious consideration again as our country goes down this path.

So many things are on the table with this ruling being overturned, and I don't think the vast majority of people understand what this ruling did. It was more to affirm privacy rights and didn't really have much to do with actually protecting abortion itself. Just so happened that this case centered on aboriton. Republicans are coming for same sex marriage, same sex relationships, contraceptions, interracial marriage, etc.. Everything that was decided on the basis of privacy is now up for debate and Clarence Thomas openly called for people to challenge those rulings.

We are in for a rough time moving forward.


Edit: Just in case I wasn't clear. There is no case in which a person should be forced to give birth, be that pregnancy resulted from horrible circumstances or not. If a person does not want to give birth, they should be able to freely make that decision on their own.

Last edited by kieran : 2022-06-26 at 07:37.
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drewprops
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2022-06-25, 09:59

From Slate...

In the 12th chapter of Neal Stephenson’s new novel, Fall, a quartet of Princeton students set out on a road trip to Iowa to visit the “ancestral home” of one of the students, Sophia. This part of the novel is set about 25 years in the future, in an age when self-driving cars are the default and a de facto border exists between the affluent, educated coasts, where Sophia and her friends live, and the heartland they call “Ameristan.” The latter is a semi-lawless territory riddled with bullet holes and conspiracy theories, where a crackpot Christian cult intent on proving the crucifixion was a hoax (because no way is their god some “meek liberal Jesus” who’d allow himself to be “taken out” like that) literally crucifies proselytizing missionaries from other sects. You have to hire guides to shepherd you through this region, men who mount machine guns on top of their trucks “to make everyone in their vicinity aware that they were a hard target.”

How did things get so bad? For one thing, residents of Ameristan, unlike Sophia and her well-off pals, can’t afford to hire professional “editors” to personally filter the internet for them. Instead, they are exposed to the raw, unmediated internet, a brew of “inscrutable, algorithmically-generated memes” and videos designed, without human intervention, to do whatever it takes to get the viewer to watch a little bit longer. This has understandably driven them mad, to the degree that, as one character puts it, they even “believed that the people in the cities actually gave a shit about them enough to come and take their guns and other property,” and as a result stockpiled ammo in order to fight off the “elites” who never come.

As much as you may have come to hate what the internet has done to American society, the savage, Swiftian satire of this part of Fall suggests that technology’s harbingers like Stephenson, author of Snow Crash and Cryptonomicon, hate it even more. Sophia’s road trip takes place after the fall of the open-access internet as we know it now—what the software engineers of this part of the novel call “the Miasma.” To destroy the Miasma, an enigmatic tech billionaire named El Shepherd, staged a massive hoax, persuading the media—social and traditional—that the town of Moab, Utah, had been obliterated by a nuclear weapon. The stunt was meant to demonstrate how fundamentally unsound and unreliable the Miasma was, and to prompt the public to take measures to protect themselves from junk communication, privacy violations, and social media in general. The problem was it didn’t entirely work, and as a result, while Sophia’s cohort takes measures to block bad information, in the world of Fall, not everyone else does or can afford to do so. Hence, a huge chunk of the population of Ameristan believes that Moab really was destroyed by an atom bomb and that the hoax story is just a government cover-up. And that’s despite the fact that anyone can walk or drive into Moab and see evidence to the contrary with their own eyes.

Of course, this is only Chapter 12 of Fall—that is, around Page 190, which to someone who’s read the subsequent 700 pages the novel seems a very long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Fall tricks you into thinking it plans to be this or that sort of fiction (a bitingly plausible near-future dystopia or tale of corporate intriguing, for example), only to heel around and head off in a new direction entirely. It does this more than once, yet remains a coherent whole. The audacity of Stephenson’s intentions is itself part of the entertainment value. What will he think of next? If the anticipation of that can get you through the awful lot of talk of the first 200 pages, the rest is a feat of mind-blowing adventure powered by deep existential questions.
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Brad
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2022-06-25, 14:10

I would ask anyone who considers themselves to be "pro life" to try to objectively evaluate not only your beliefs but more importantly the people you support politically and financially to see if it's really life you are supporting or if it's just birth.

The people in power who claim to be marching under the "pro life" banner have been eroding actual life support for decades by…
  • …fighting against affordable or universal health care.
  • …criminalizing life-saving medical procedures.
  • …defunding social services that support struggling parents.
  • …reducing or eliminating sex education (which encompasses far more about human biology and health than the simple act of having sex).
  • …defunding public education in favor of private corporations and religious institutions.
  • …protesting, inciting violence, and committing arson and property destruction around Planned Parenthood (which offers far more health services than abortions).
  • …claiming they want government not to play a part in personal health matters (see also: response to COVID-19, vaccinations, PPE, etc.) despite supporting government intrusion into our most personal affairs.
  • …threatening to eliminate even more established personal freedoms.
The current reality of the "pro life" movement is that in practice its leadership only supports the potential life of a fetus until it is extracted from a womb. The "pro life" movement is a lie and needs to end. It's anti-life (for anyone other than a 100% viable fetus), anti-choice, anti-health, anti-education, and anti-freedom.

This simple truth bears repeating at every opportunity:

Outlawing abortion does not stop abortions; it only makes the action more deadly to both the mother and child and it restricts access to the wealthy who have the means to travel and avoid local laws.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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Ryan
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2022-06-25, 23:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
I would ask anyone who considers themselves to be "pro life" to try to objectively evaluate not only your beliefs but more importantly the people you support politically and financially to see if it's really life you are supporting or if it's just birth.

The people in power who claim to be marching under the "pro life" banner have been eroding actual life support for decades by…
  • …fighting against affordable or universal health care.
  • …criminalizing life-saving medical procedures.
  • …defunding social services that support struggling parents.
  • …reducing or eliminating sex education (which encompasses far more about human biology and health than the simple act of having sex).
  • …defunding public education in favor of private corporations and religious institutions.
  • …protesting, inciting violence, and committing arson and property destruction around Planned Parenthood (which offers far more health services than abortions).
  • …claiming they want government not to play a part in personal health matters (see also: response to COVID-19, vaccinations, PPE, etc.) despite supporting government intrusion into our most personal affairs.
  • …threatening to eliminate even more established personal freedoms.
The current reality of the "pro life" movement is that in practice its leadership only supports the potential life of a fetus until it is extracted from a womb. The "pro life" movement is a lie and needs to end. It's anti-life (for anyone other than a 100% viable fetus), anti-choice, anti-health, anti-education, and anti-freedom.

This simple truth bears repeating at every opportunity:

Outlawing abortion does not stop abortions; it only makes the action more deadly to both the mother and child and it restricts access to the wealthy who have the means to travel and avoid local laws.
The tell is the pro-life crowd's refusal to support policies like Colorado's that have caused abortions to plummet while also expanding abortion access more than just about any other state.

https://coloradosun.com/2019/10/21/c...re-the-reason/

Colorado has:
  • Access to oral contraceptives at pharmacies without a doctor
  • Free IUDs for teens
  • Over-the-counter Plan B

All that has contributed to Colorado's abortion rate among teens falling by 60%.

A few months ago Colorado enshrined Roe into state law and there will probably be a ballot measure in November to add it to the state constitution. Our big challenge here now is keeping up with demand. Abortion centers are reporting they're completely maxed out.

More worrying is how Colorado will respond with a state like Texas inevitably demands that CO extradite someone who flees TX for an abortion in CO. That will truly be a constitutional crisis.
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Matsu
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2022-06-26, 06:11

If the Democratic party has any vigor, this moment could be a gift to them, but... as much as Republican's strike me as insane, a good number of Democratic incumbents seem too lazy and content to do much about it.

.........................................
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drewprops
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Join Date: May 2004
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2022-06-26, 07:01

Conservatives who are in favor of this ruling are not going to comment, as they have won a victory that could last decades.

Enshrining anything in the US Constitution is an impossible goal, as our nation is too polarized on this and many other topics.

Will this single issue be powerful enough to make a dent in the midterms?

Democrats may see a surge this November, but this single issue won't animate all voters. We've got war, energy costs, inflation, potential recession, and more.

Most states are going to proceed on the paths they've set; those lines are set for the immediate future. Will any change?

According to Rolling Stone, the former president is publicly taking credit and privately "bemoaning" what it all means.

How many years will it be before state and Federal governments begin recording a surge in welfare requests?

...
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Capella
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2022-06-26, 10:35

My take as someone who's had an abortion is the same as it was earlier in this thread: I dare one of the pro-life folk to come to me and tell me the clump of baby cells in my womb that can't live outside me matters more than me, the currently living and thriving person.

Notice the people defending this decision refused to engage with me earlier in this thread and answer that.

I can't believe the fucking Supreme Court and the right wing think it's NOT okay for the government to intervene in what kinds of guns people possess (even though the guns are external items which a person can live without) but the government CAN intervene in the private medical decision inside my body.

I regret my spouse coming here to America. We're concerned they're going to go after gay marriage next, invalidate it, and potentially remove his ability to immigrate based on it :/

This level of gov't involvement in medical decisions also ties into their anti-transition laws, where it says what I can do as an adult is now aiming to be prevented. (The new laws aimed at taking way transition care for over-18s). At what point is every one of my prescripotions to be scrutinized, and I told I don't "need" that T or E? When is it "you're clearly using that progesterone for birth control and not for ovarian cysts like you said"?

I feel like all my rights to make decisions for myself that Christians don't agree with are being taken away. And it doesn't matter that I'm not Christian. Their belief in their book overrides my own faith, be it Jewish or Satanic or Islamic or Hindu or pagan or none. But then they claim we're at war with them.

"A blind, deaf, comatose, lobotomy patient could feel my anger!" - Darth Baras
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Brad
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2022-06-26, 13:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
Will this single issue be powerful enough to make a dent in the midterms?

Democrats may see a surge this November, but this single issue won't animate all voters. We've got war, energy costs, inflation, potential recession, and more.
I'm afraid Democrats don't have a chance. I agree with Matsu. If progressives were going to do anything good to fix the imbalanced courts or enshrine personal freedoms and protections at a federal level, these last two years and right now were their best opportunity. Elected Democrats in Congress are far too complacent and eager to compromise and talk whereas elected Republicans are a unified force that is more than willing to play dirty, lie, cheat, and steal to get their way. That's the one thing I actually admire about the GQP: they sure know how to deliver on an agenda. I'm still going to continue to vote at every level, because that's the only power I have, but what little optimism I have is waning with every passing year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capella View Post
I dare one of the pro-life folk to come to me and tell me the clump of baby cells in my womb that can't live outside me matters more than me, the currently living and thriving person.
You just reminded me of a discussion I read yesterday that somehow made me feel even worse about all this. By elevating the priority of a fetus over that of the person carrying it, several states are now saying that a corpse now has more rights and bodily autonomy than a living woman. You can't take organs from a person/corpse without their consent (The Uniform Anatomical Gift Act (2006)), but this clump of cells can effectively take organs and use the body of a woman without her consent. Legally, you're better off dead than pregnant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capella View Post
I feel like all my rights to make decisions for myself that Christians don't agree with are being taken away. And it doesn't matter that I'm not Christian. Their belief in their book overrides my own faith, be it Jewish or Satanic or Islamic or Hindu or pagan or none.
I like to remind myself and others that shielding "pro life" beliefs behind supposed-Christianity is actually a modern product of willful ignorance, misogyny, bigotry, classism, racism, and authoritarianism, not just Christian mythos and text. Sure, the Christian bible is horribly misogynist (and frames this particular passage in terms of "testing an unfaithful wife"), but people often forget or ignore that their bible openly condones abortions, and The Lord God Almighty Himself even gives Moses specific instructions for men, women, and priests on how to prepare and administer an abortifacient…

Numbers chapter 5, New International Version:

Quote:
11 Then the Lord said to Moses,



16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.



21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”



When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.
There are other passages that also define life as starting after birth and that some births should be aborted, not to mention the whole love-thy-neighbor and forgiveness themes of the New Testament. Shock!

Of course, modern Christians (and Muslims, Jews, etc.) are masters of selectively ignoring or reinterpreting passages that don't fit the current political narrative, and there are contradictions for just about any subject in their texts that one could choose to support an argument. Trying to argue on the basis of one thousand-years-old passage versus another thousand-years-old passage is a fool's errand, and I only mention this one to highlight the hypocrisy in the current "pro life" movement. It's almost as if these religious texts are so incredibly subjective that they shouldn't be the basis of modern laws that govern hundreds of millions of people.

Do not let these people hide behind religion as some kind of impenetrable wall to defend personal beliefs that infringe on or hurt others.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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2022-06-26, 14:54

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
Conservatives who are in favor of this ruling are not going to comment, as they have won a victory that could last decades.
This reply isn't really to Drew, but more to respond to a general question about it for all of you. I've not seen anyone else respond so I figure I'll say something as one of the only vocal members who is on "the right".

I haven't been posting because this isn't an open discussion. The vast majority of users on this forum all say those with similar views to me are evil and spout all the ways you (generalization, not you personally) are right in this. It for me comes down to what is the law? The Constitution never protected abortion. That was clearly laid out in the opinion that ordered the overturning of RvW. All of you, read the opinion if you didn't, it is worth it. Don't read the headlines and the social media talking points but read the actual opinion. Even if you don't agree with it, it was spelled out clearly why it was ordered as it was.

Fact is, many states had abortions considered illegal before RvW. From this list, the oldest is actually from 1849! This means those states can operate independently as they were designed to do when this country was founded. The only thing the ruling did was remand power back to the states, where it should be.

To respond to some of the other points brought up by others, it really boils down to the difference between capitalism and socialism. Most conservatives aren't socialists. The government is not to be trusted because it only wants more and more power. The more it is given the less we are able to self manage. The more it manages the closer to socialism/communism we are. While I'm not truly a libertarian, I do lean that way and believe the federal government should go back to just guarding our shores and delivering the mail. The states should be free to manage themselves as they see fit.

I'm not mad the California wants to ban ICE engines before I think we are ready for it. That it their prerogative and are free to do so! I just won't live there. I'm not even mad that they will allow things I don't think should be legal, again it is their prerogative.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
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chucker
 
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2022-06-26, 15:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
Fact is, many states had abortions considered illegal before RvW. From this list, the oldest is actually from 1849!
Indeed. Finally, a time machine to 173 years ago!

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
The only thing the ruling did was remand power back to the states, where it should be.
What even is the point of federalism if everything “should be” decided at a state level?
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Ryan
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2022-06-26, 15:38

Why should FederalismTM mean states can put women's lives in danger?

Why should FederalismTM mean that Texas gets to punish anyone who helps someone get an abortion outside their state?

Kevin McCarthy is already on record saying he'll put a nationwide 15 week abortion ban up for a vote if he becomes speaker.

The states' rights argument here just doesn't hold water when paired with the reality on the ground.
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Brad
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2022-06-26, 15:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
To respond to some of the other points brought up by others, it really boils down to the difference between capitalism and socialism. Most conservatives aren't socialists. The government is not to be trusted because it only wants more and more power. The more it is given the less we are able to self manage. The more it manages the closer to socialism/communism we are.
I'm really confused by this connection.

How exactly does capitalism lead to removing bodily autonomy and restricting access to health care? If I want to buy birth control or a medical procedure, shouldn't raw capitalism encourage that exchange of goods and services? Supply (medical services) should meet the demand.

How does allowing me and my doctors to make decisions about my body have anything to do with socialism?

Also, if you don't trust the government, shouldn't you be in favor of allowing more personal choices so we can self-manage our health? Flipping RvW and allowing states to outlaw abortion and other reproductive care is doing the exact opposite: giving the government more control over the human body and removing the ability to (legally) make personal choices.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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PB PM
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2022-06-26, 16:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
To respond to some of the other points brought up by others, it really boils down to the difference between capitalism and socialism. Most conservatives aren't socialists. The government is not to be trusted because it only wants more and more power. The more it is given the less we are able to self manage. The more it manages the closer to socialism/communism we are.
Frankly it's about time we realize that capitalism has basically failed. If it worked, government wouldn't constantly have to try and regulate it from destroying otherwise 'self managing' individuals lives. Socialism, at least as practiced now, isn't exactly proving itself to be the solution either, not any current models anyway. If government cannot be trusted, what makes you think individuals who can 'self mange', as you say, are any more trust worthy? All individual people, like government, want is more and more power/money, after all government is simply a group of individuals working for a set of at least somewhat common goals, so what's your point? That's capitalism is it not? Everyone thinks they know better than everyone else, so what makes anyone any more trust worthy? Yet if we only trust ourselves, which is kind of foolish, we also would be lacking. In reality the vast majority of humanity is simply not capable of "self managing", I think we've proven time and time again that as a species we are simply are not intelligent enough.

In reality none of us know all the answers, to anything. As one of my teachers rightly pointed out, the more you know, the more you realize how little you actually know!
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chucker
 
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2022-06-26, 16:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
I'm really confused by this connection.

How exactly does capitalism lead to removing bodily autonomy and restricting access to health care? If I want to buy birth control or a medical procedure, shouldn't raw capitalism encourage that exchange of goods and services? Supply (medical services) should meet the demand.

How does allowing me and my doctors to make decisions about my body have anything to do with socialism?
I'm guessing turtle means "authoritarianism" for socialism and "libertarianism" for capitalism.
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chucker
 
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2022-06-26, 16:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Frankly it's about time we realize that capitalism has basically failed. If it worked, government wouldn't constantly have to try and regulate it from destroying otherwise 'self managing' individuals lives. Socialism, at least as practiced now, isn't exactly proving itself to be the solution either, not any current models anyway.
I look at it as a false choice. Marx's brand of socialism hasn't really been tried, and I'm not sure it ever will be. Pure capitalism also isn't really a thing, because that wouldn't work. That's why we have agencies such as antitrust.
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