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MC: Currency


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View Poll Results: Minecraft Currency?
Yes, currency would be helpful. 3 21.43%
Meh. Brad or Turtle gives me whatever I ask for. 5 35.71%
No. Currency is the debbil. Unless I can get my face on it. Can I? 5 35.71%
Gah. I'm fucking sick of you Minecraft people. 3 21.43%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

MC: Currency
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2011-04-25, 19:00

So there was an interesting idea brought up again in the 1.5 thread. We've had a little banter about it in the past, but since our world has grown beyond the dirt and wood beginnings into a semblance of a civilization (which I expect will continue on into a metropolis ), the idea of buying and selling goods inevitably comes to the fore.

That leads us to two things: a) a currency system; and b) a small infusion of said currency into the world (or, the banking system at least).

Some sexy subsets: A) does anyone see the need for this? B) who decides what is worth what? C) We'd have to build a bank. Honor system of course, but I don't see that as being a problem. OR DO I?

In the above mentioned thread, Kraetos came up with the idea of using slimeballs for currency. I thought it was ghey at first, but in thinking about it further it may indeed be the perfect coin. It takes some work to get it (as if swinging swords were work), you have to travel a little (though not much, really), and it is round. Like a coin. Or something.

I think it's a great idea, honestly. There are things we have to work out, obviously, like "bankers" being online, deposit areas, etc. But we can do that.



[edit]: Poll added!

So it goes.
  quote
Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-04-25, 19:11

Slimeballs are also green! It's like they're asking to be used as some sort of currency.

Money also means we can build shops. It also means that people can charge for things, like use of turtle's armory, which means I won't feel as bad about using so many diamonds when I fall off the skyway like a n00b, lose my diamond armor and need to take a new set

It makes trading between players viable too. If you mine/collect too much of something this makes it possible to convert that surplus into something useful. If we adopt currency I'll be selling things out of my house in Bridgeport for sure.

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-04-25, 19:27

There may still be some bartering between a party that's out of slimeballs (cash), but that's the case in real life anyways. Sometimes I don't want to have to go to the bank to cash in.

Anyways, we should all way in on this.

So it goes.
  quote
709
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-04-25, 19:28

LOL Brad.


At least you're being honest.
  quote
709
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Join Date: May 2004
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2011-04-25, 19:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
Anyways, we should all way in on this.
Is that even right? Way in? Am I retarded right now because of too much Zin? That doesn't even remotely look right, but there it is, typed by my own fingers..

I thought for a second "Whey" - which is like fairytale with spiders and shit. But that looked worse. I need to step back, apparently.

So it goes.
  quote
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-04-25, 19:49

Weigh.

I love the loaded language of the "meh" option.

I wouldn't really care either way, but I'm not sure I see the need. Those who feel that asking for assistance is "cheating" won't. Those who realize that, say, they'd never find enough lapis to make a giant blue LEGO brick will, and Bridgeport will be a little more colorful for it. I think regular social mores will keep people from wanting to beg for goods too often.

I sort of like the current system of people voluntarily helping each other, to be honest. People were generous with giving me materials to get started, and I hope I can be equally generous back. I mean, is anyone really perceiving a problem with people mooching off other players or the Exchange?

As it is now, an item only has value if you're planning on using it — it's not like you can turn a gold ore into an "equivalent" number of redstone or whatever. I posit that this is a Good Thing with regards to the circulation of items, actually. If everyone is spelunking and someone finds gold and don't need it, there's no reason not to let a goldless player have it. But if that gold is worth Xty $limeballs, then they might want it for its artificial value. Creating a fiat currency to represent the worth of resources that might actually be otherwise worthless to the player mining them just seems a little serious business to me.

I sort of like the game now, where everybody's trying to impress each other with the creativity and quality of their constructions, not just the resources used, and people who can't spend every waking moment mining can still make something interesting. Maybe Brad is super annoyed by everybody begging him for resources at every turn, but to my knowledge this isn't a problem.

So yeah, I'd weigh in somewhere between "meh" and "no" on this. Maybe I'm just a communist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
In the above mentioned thread, Kraetos came up with the idea of using slimeballs for currency. I thought it was ghey at first, but in thinking about it further it may indeed be the perfect coin. It takes some work to get it (as if swinging swords were work), you have to travel a little (though not much, really), and it is round. Like a coin. Or something.
Perhaps most importantly, it's the one item that's otherwise absolutely useless, so it's not like anyone who wants to build something will have to smelt away their fortune to get the right shade of green block or whatever.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2011-04-25, 19:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
LOL Brad.


At least you're being honest.


If we instate some kind of currency, turtle (and mrs. turtle) and I really should be forbidden from contributing items through dark magic except in dire emergencies. That goes for gifts that weren't 100% earned, too. No more giving out free diamond picks and swords at the turtle shell armory. No giving out of whole cakes or cooked meats that weren't 100% crafted naturally. No giving out of lapis or flowers or whatever is needed for a buddy's project. Otherwise, the whole "economy" will be a sham.

Basically, the turtles and I should be removed from the economy entirely.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2011-04-25, 19:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
Weigh.
Oh.
My.
Fucking.
God.


Of course it's "weigh," - it couldn't be anything but "weigh." I know that. I KNOW THAT!

Erg. Time to reboot my synapsis. brb.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tidewater Virginia
 
2011-04-25, 20:00

Hey, I was honest in my poll selection. Do I get a prize?

I'm ok with currency and would certainly support it if it's chosen, but Brad really nailed the problematic side of it.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-04-25, 20:05

Rebooted.


That was by far - even with all my drunken escapades over the last few years - the most personally embarrassing thing I have ever done here, ever.
  quote
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-04-25, 20:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post


If we instate some kind of currency, turtle (and mrs. turtle) and I really should be forbidden from contributing items through dark magic except in dire emergencies. That goes for gifts that weren't 100% earned, too. No more giving out free diamond picks and swords at the turtle shell armory. No giving out of whole cakes or cooked meats that weren't 100% crafted naturally. No giving out of lapis or flowers or whatever is needed for a buddy's project. Otherwise, the whole "economy" will be a sham.

Basically, the turtles and I should be removed from the economy entirely.
I think that's the idea.

I just don't see the need. Like, is there anybody out there who is seriously upset that other people are getting resources for their projects through dark magicks? Is there anybody who thinks that their pretend blue blocks are somehow less special because someone else got their pretend blue blocks the wrong way? Let me know, and I'll get rid of them, srsly.

I don't think that any immediate 1:1 exchange of equivalent "value" is needed. We're not strangers. We all know each other and we all want to help out each other, especially if they've helped us out first. And how would you value different blocks, anyway? Rowdy and art gave me a bunch of wool because I was making a wool house and they had extra. I gave Bryson some sand because I built on a desert and had plenty. Is wool worth more or less than sand? Are we going to start running auctions so that the Invisible Hand can determine the value of different blocks? God, I hope not.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-04-25, 20:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post


If we instate some kind of currency, turtle (and mrs. turtle) and I really should be forbidden from contributing items through dark magic except in dire emergencies. That goes for gifts that weren't 100% earned, too. No more giving out free diamond picks and swords at the turtle shell armory. No giving out of whole cakes or cooked meats that weren't 100% crafted naturally. No giving out of lapis or flowers or whatever is needed for a buddy's project. Otherwise, the whole "economy" will be a sham.

Basically, the turtles and I should be removed from the economy entirely.
What? I don't think this thing means you should put a cap on your God powers, just dole them out as "needed" instead of "wanted" that's all. The "economy" is a sham right now. Otherwise this thread wouldn't be here.

I think I made myself clear above on the armory and gifts. I don't think just because you've mentioned them that you've refuted why we couldn't do better with currency.

So it goes.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-04-25, 20:20

Oh god addabox is going to love this.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2011-04-25, 20:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
I think that's the idea.

I just don't see the need. Like, is there anybody out there who is seriously upset that other people are getting resources for their projects through dark magicks? Is there anybody who thinks that their pretend blue blocks are somehow less special because someone else got their pretend blue blocks the wrong way? Let me know, and I'll get rid of them, srsly.

I don't think that any immediate 1:1 exchange of equivalent "value" is needed. We're not strangers. We all know each other and we all want to help out each other, especially if they've helped us out first. And how would you value different blocks, anyway? Rowdy and art gave me a bunch of wool because I was making a wool house and they had extra. I gave Bryson some sand because I built on a desert and had plenty. Is wool worth more or less than sand? Are we going to start running auctions so that the Invisible Hand can determine the value of different blocks? God, I hope not.
I think you may be on to something here. I don't care a bit about anything getting anything per se, maybe I'm just irked that if everyone gets what they want, why do they have to ask? Just put a ton of shit in the community exchange and refill it when it's gone, right?

Bottom line is I hate to ask for anything, and when I do get something, I feel the need to repay.


That's not to say I just don't like helping people out. I dropped a bunch of starter stuff at your place with only the hope you'd stick around. Never once did I think about bullshit repayment. I never would.

So it goes.
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2011-04-25, 21:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
The "economy" is a sham right now.
Well, yeah, except there's no pretense of a real economy either. It's all a free-for-all, anything-goes economy. Barter, gifts, and dark magic all mix around, but that's okay because no one is keeping tabs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
I don't think just because you've mentioned them that you've refuted why we couldn't do better with currency.
I'm not arguing against a currency-based economy. I'm only arguing that the turtles and I should stay out of it because we'd be (or be tempted to be) constantly stacking the odds or inflating/deflating the currency's value.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-04-25, 21:08

The idea behind currency is to increase the frequency with which resources move between players and players and between players and ops, not to reduce it.

Brad and turtle shouldn't be removed from the economy, they are an essential part of it! They would be running the only shops on the map which would be guaranteed to have everything "in stock." (Whether they compete or price fix is up to them ) They would in turn be giving out slimeballs to new players and as grants for new projects as they saw fit i.e. slimeballs would replace "hey I'm building X can I have some Y?" requests. It also opens the door for currency based games between players, like my current project. Players could earn money for working on map-wide projects, like community farms/traps, the skyway or the upcoming skyrail.

Also, I feel like bartering items between players is awkward and we don't do it much. Having currency would greatly increase the frequency with which we give each other stuff, because if we have currency, then we can trade our surplusses away when we have them, and not when/if we find out that someone else has something we want.

The way I see it, if we standardize the means through which we all exchange items, we will be more inclined to exchange items. That's what I'm going for, I don't care about simulating a "real economy."

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope

Last edited by Kraetos : 2011-04-25 at 21:43.
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2011-04-25, 21:11

I'm reminded that there's a widely-used Bukkit plugin called iConomy that adds money in an abstract way.

Also, I think SimpleServer has a way to lock/unlock chests. I'll have to experiment with that feature to see if there's a way we can create actual safes from chests...

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
RowdyScot
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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2011-04-25, 21:18

I'd rather not do the economy route. Yet, anyway. I'm open to it, but liking things as they are right now. Not that I like asking for stuff all the time or anything, but at least until we're able to access everything in the Nether otherwise, I'd rather we not do currency.

Authentic Nova Scotia bagpipe innards
  quote
709
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-04-25, 21:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
Well, yeah, except there's no pretense of a real economy either. It's all a free-for-all, anything-goes economy. Barter, gifts, and dark magic all mix around, but that's okay because no one is keeping tabs.
True, and it's honestly been good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
I'm not arguing against a currency-based economy. I'm only arguing that the turtles and I should stay out of it because we'd be (or be tempted to be) constantly stacking the odds or inflating/deflating the currency's value.
Well, I'm not really looking to argue anything about this either. I may be confrontational at times, but it's only because I want to hear honest thoughts, and sometimes being a cunt is the best way to get people on board. It's my thing.

I'm not sure we're on the same page though. The way I see it is that for either massive amounts of (X), unobtainable (X), or obtainable but too lazy to get (X) we'd pay (something, tbd). I'd expect your gifts and kindness would remain throughout just as they are now, with the rare time you unload a shit-ton of a specific asset on someone (like me, for example) that I'd pay.

Not much different than it is now, really. But if I needed a huge boost I'd be accountable for it.

So it goes.

Last edited by 709 : 2011-04-25 at 21:54. Reason: than /= then : fuck you zin
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-04-25, 21:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
I love the loaded language of the "meh" option.
My poll may be fucked, but at least people are honest about voting.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2011-04-25, 21:47

This thread went way the other way that I thought it would, btw.
  quote
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-04-25, 21:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
Brad and turtle shouldn't be removed from the economy, they are an essential part of it! They would be running the only shops on the map which would be guaranteed to have everything "in stock." They would in turn be giving out slimeballs to new players and as grants for new projects as they saw fit i.e. slimeballs would replace "hey I'm building X can I have some Y?" requests.
So instead of saying "ZOMG I will never find enough lapis" and having an admin drop me some, I would say "Brad, I'm starting a new project" and he would give me X slimeballs, which I would then give back to him in exchange for lapis?

That just seems needlessly complicated. How would we determine the "worth" of different projects? Would each building be worth X? Would bigger structures be worth more? My current project is somewhere between "arteggio big" and "bobsky big." How many slimeballs is that worth? What if Rowdy wants to make Mega Man pixel art? That's a smaller project but it would still need lots of rare dyes. &c. &c.

It just sounds like creating a hassle (especially for the admins) where there is none, now. I didn't glass-iffy part of the Bridgeport skybridge because I wanted to earn money. I did it because I thought it would look better and I wanted to contribute (and because I wanted people to be able to better see my house from above ). Bryson didn't make a new cobble generator for money. You didn't remodel the post office for money. And yet all those things still got done because that's sort of the point of the game. Building things and helping each other is just fun to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos
Also, I feel like bartering items between players is awkward and we don't do it much. Having currency would greatly increase the frequency with which we give each other stuff, because if we have currency, then we can trade our surplusses away when we have them, and not when/if we find out that someone else has something we need.

The way I see it, if we standardize the means through which we all exchange items, we will be more inclined to exchange items. That's what I'm going for, I don't care about simulating a "real economy."
Really? The whole thing seems a good bit more inconvenient than just bartering, to me. It's not even bartering, really, it's just sharing. The sand I gave Bryson was worth something to him and nothing to me. Why wouldn't I share? But then if we start saying that each stack of sand is worth 5 slimeballs, and collecting 50 slimeballs is the only practical way I could get any lapis, then I'd have to be all "pay up" for giving him something I honestly didn't need for myself. It'd be purely artificial value.

I have plenty of wool now. I'll gladly give white wool to anyone who wants it. I would have just given you red or black wool the other night, Kraetos, if I didn't need all I can get my hands on for my next project. Outside of that, it has no value to me. If I ever stop making colorful things, my dyes are yours.

I don't think Minecraft needs a way of keeping score. Seeing the cool things you people build and getting complements on what I build is satisfying enough. Anyone who doesn't like feeling like they "owe" Brad for his assistance can put things into the Exchange in return, or whatever.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-04-25, 22:03

Oh god I though this was going to be a super-easy yes or no
  quote
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-04-25, 22:12

Super 709 Quote-a-thon:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
That was by far - even with all my drunken escapades over the last few years - the most personally embarrassing thing I have ever done here, ever.
It's okay. I've had more embarrassing typos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
That's not to say I just don't like helping people out. I dropped a bunch of starter stuff at your place with only the hope you'd stick around. Never once did I think about bullshit repayment. I never would.
Oh, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
My poll may be fucked, but at least people are honest about voting.
There, I voted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
This thread went way the other way that I thought it would, btw.
Aww. It's not that a slimeball economy is a horrible idea, if you're going for realism. Other servers do it, and I'm sure they still have fun, somehow. But that's not the way we've been playing the game until now, and unless people are honestly dissatisfied at not having a realistic economy I don't see the need to change things. I mean, is the magicks-is-cheating crowd silently resentful of other people getting mana from heaven, and that's ruining the fun for them? If so, we could (and should) change something, sure.

I'll just say that if I had to somehow buy lapis, my brick house probably wouldn't have ever gotten built (it wouldn't look right, without blue!), and my next project probably wouldn't be getting built either. And that's all from me, for this thread (unless somebody wants a direct response).

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-04-25, 22:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
So instead of saying "ZOMG I will never find enough lapis" and having an admin drop me some, I would say "Brad, I'm starting a new project" and he would give me X slimeballs, which I would then give back to him in exchange for lapis?

That just seems needlessly complicated. How would we determine the "worth" of different projects? Would each building be worth X? Would bigger structures be worth more? My current project is somewhere between "arteggio big" and "bobsky big." How many slimeballs is that worth? What if Rowdy wants to make Mega Man pixel art? That's a smaller project but it would still need lots of rare dyes. &c. &c.
This is all bullshit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
Really? The whole thing seems a good bit more inconvenient than just bartering, to me. It's not even bartering, really, it's just sharing. The sand I gave Bryson was worth something to him and nothing to me. Why wouldn't I share? But then if we start saying that each stack of sand is worth 5 slimeballs, and collecting 50 slimeballs is the only practical way I could get any lapis, then I'd have to be all "pay up" for giving him something I honestly didn't need for myself. It'd be purely artificial value.

I have plenty of wool now. I'll gladly give white wool to anyone who wants it. I would have just given you red or black wool the other night, Kraetos, if I didn't need all I can get my hands on for my next project. Outside of that, it has no value to me. If I ever stop making colorful things, my dyes are yours.

I don't think Minecraft needs a way of keeping score. Seeing the cool things you people build and getting complements on what I build is satisfying enough. Anyone who doesn't like feeling like they "owe" Brad for his assistance can put things into the Exchange in return, or whatever.
This is roughly true.

I think y'all are making this whole thing a lot more complicated than it should be. Let me put it into perspective:

A) There is a coin now. Do with it what you will. Trade it, keep it, buy something with it. Just like real life.

B) Mod powers will not change. They can flood you with metric ass-loads of whatever you're too lazy to mine yourself.

C) "Unobtainables" are at the mods discretion. Give, buy, trade. Whatever.

D) Gah. I really thought this would be a stupidly easy thing for everyone to agree upon. I don't even know why I started this thread now.

So it goes.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2011-04-25, 22:17

HAHA! Jinx, or whatever ~3 minutes later is.
  quote
billybobsky
BANNED
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
 
2011-04-25, 22:27

So...

Currency is only needed in economies with a large mixed set of goods. Minecraft isn't this economy. In a limited economy, bartering is more efficient, outright sharing of goods is even more efficient.

I am a no vote on currency. I wouldn't use it, I wouldn't accept it, and I might not play nice with those in the currency racket because my actions outside of it will unduly influence the value of the currency etc.

Let's not mention that slime balls, while rare are non-finite. Their value will thus be highly fluctuating....
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2011-04-25, 22:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
But that's not the way we've been playing the game until now, and unless people are honestly dissatisfied at not having a realistic economy I don't see the need to change things. I mean, is the magicks-is-cheating crowd silently resentful of other people getting mana from heaven, and that's ruining the fun for them? If so, we could (and should) change something, sure.
It's a progression. I (and others) thought to bring it up. Putting me (and others) into a "magicks-is-cheating crowd" is kind of offish, don't you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
I'll just say that if I had to somehow buy lapis, my brick house probably wouldn't have ever gotten built (it wouldn't look right, without blue!), and my next project probably wouldn't be getting built either. And that's all from me, for this thread (unless somebody wants a direct response).
I love your house, and I love what you do, but what if you had to get lapis? By natural means? Would you never have built anything?

So it goes.
  quote
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-04-25, 22:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
D) Gah. I really thought this would be a stupidly easy thing for everyone to agree upon. I don't even know why I started this thread now.
<3
  quote
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-04-25, 22:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
It's a progression. I (and others) thought to bring it up. Putting me (and others) into a "magicks-is-cheating crowd" is kind of offish, don't you think?
I didn't mean to put anybody in any crowd. I don't know if that sort of "fun = ruined" crowd exists, which is why I was asking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709
I love your house, and I love what you do, but what if you had to get lapis? By natural means? Would you never have built anything?
No, but I wouldn't have built anything that required large quantities of stupidly rare blue dye.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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