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MC: 2.0 Update and Ensuing Wipeolla!


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MC: 2.0 Update and Ensuing Wipeolla!
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-11-03, 13:53

I don't know a whole lot about MC 2.0, but it sounds like we are going to have to start fresh, which I am kinda looking forward to. Let's do it!

As I understand it, MC renders every exposed block, whether it is immediately visible or not. From what I have read, standard mining practices and below-ground development projects expose a lot of blocks that the system then renders, regardless of your ability to "see" them. Considering the spawn chunks are always loaded (and downtown is within spawn) that means there are many tens of thousands of exposed blocks beneath the streets. Add in all the redstone contraptions, tree farms, animal farms (with their many animals), my Monument Tower (with its thousands of pulsating blocks), etc, and downtown is a rendering mess!

I regularly drop down to <10 frames around MT, and <15 pretty much everywhere else within 300 to 400 blocks of spawn. It's pretty bad.

Taking this into account, I would like to propose the following minor "rules" changes when we switch to 2.0 (which I am assuming will require a complete vanilla do-over (everything gets wiped?).

1) No basements deeper than [X] blocks within the spawn chunks (perhaps 10). This will prevent deep operations that expose many thousands of blocks
2) No mining within the spawn chunks; All mining operations must be >1000 blocks from spawn. This will prevent deep operations that expose many, many thousands of blocks. We are all capable of moving away from spawn and establishing mining operations. This will also alleviate mine crowding.
3) Mining operations should be limited to a 200x200 block area. When resources are exhausted, establish a new mine away from spawn
4) From the N/S/E/W Spawn intersection, a corridor 11 blocks wide is set aside out to 500+ blocks from center
5) The 4 200x200 intersecting lots are set aside for community purposes

The idea being that the major builds within spawn would be above-ground displays only. Redstone contraptions such as chicken farms, etc could certainly be exceptions so they are always running and always producing, but any other major redstone machines should be built on the fringes (outside of spawn) so they shut down when no one is around to run them (a good example are the various traps/farms whose busy-ness would render downtown painfully slow).

It's nice to dig in as soon as we spawn and start mining, but I think this has had a detrimental long-term affect on downtown's responsiveness and it's kind of becoming a drag to visit. It would be better if we institute some long-term planning if we're going to start from scratch. Spawn is for above-ground displays, houses, etc.; We could set aside a transportation corridor running N/S/E/W from spawn's exact center; We could say that the four 200x200 square parcels that intersect at spawn are set aside for community projects (establishing a true "downtown" area)—I would love to see this area mimic a true "downtown" with streets and brick/stone buildings much like you see in old towns.

By all means, build a cool house/building within view of downtown, but stay on the surface and keep the RS contraptions to a bare minimum. Build your really-cool-awesome-farm-a-rator out in the boonies.

Essentially, we could treat Spawn much the same as we treat Nether Hub 2.0: Inside the grid, no mining/development.

Just my two bits.

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!

Last edited by kscherer : 2015-11-03 at 14:06.
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drewprops
Magnificent Basturd™
sagacious-d
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2015-11-04, 01:01

So for the "first night" party we'll spawn, pick a direction and run 1,000+ blocks out BEFORE we begin any serious caving for iron, etc.?

Should we perhaps establish a fence/marker/wall of some sort around that 1,000 block nature preserve?

...
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-11-04, 10:21

Well, a thousand blocks can be managed in just a few minutes real time, so not that big a deal. Yeah, pick a direction and RUN!

If the spawn point has a lot of land, we should go with it. If it's on a tiny island, we should respawn with a new map. Perhaps we will know by then? Hell, I don't know.

As far as fencing is concerned, we have geo-fencing. Check your coordinates. If you're at +1000, dig away!

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!
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Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: A town that Germany forgot.
 
2015-11-04, 15:23

I miss the new adventures with the new worlds... They really were the best time for the server... (I am also glad it is being recognized that my basement was not the lone or even major cause of the laggy center empty as it was)...
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2015-11-04, 15:29

Yeah, I like "starting again" too. Depending on when 2.0 comes out, I might be able to get back on a bit - my kid has finally worked out how to go to bed semi-reliably and I'm investing in a new laptop very soon!
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-11-04, 16:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Bobsky View Post
(I am also glad it is being recognized that my basement was not the lone or even major cause of the laggy center empty as it was)...
Between all the mining operations, underground paths/trails/tunnels, basements of varying complexity, animated blocks, redstone contraptions, tree farms, chests full of crap (yes, each item in a chest is rendered as if it were a full block—not stack mind you, but each *item!*), all the crops, farms and animals, etc., natural caves/caverns … the list goes on.

Each of these things is rendered by the system. Downtown has effectively become a no-go zone for slower computers (mine included). Hell, I completely rebuilt my basement out at the Palace with a 108-item sorting system and the frame rates drop below 5 some days due to the tremendous number of individual items (including each item in each chest) and the redstone clocks. It's hell in there, and it may get unplugged.

So, yeah, Bruce, your basement wasn't the sole cause of disruption in downtown. But, it was a contributing factor, just as every other contraption in the downtown area is. Things improved after its "deletion", but then got worse, again, after I built the Monument Tower. I never factored in the delay caused by 15,000 animated Prismarine bricks. didn't even think about it. Not until I was up around 180 blocks above ground and was afraid of running off the edge because the frame rates were so crappy. It's terrible, and the only solution is to bring it down (or move it should copy/paste become an option, again).

Knowing what I've learned over the past 2 years I've been playing is why I'm suggesting these rules changes. There is simply too much [underground] clutter, too many chests stuffed to capacity, too many clocks, etc. Downtown is crowded with junk. I think the only solution going forward is to reserve the entirety of the downtown (spawn) area for aboveground displays and keep our vast mining/redstone operations out on the fringes where they will be unloaded for other players and, thus, result in smoother gameplay.

There's no way to fix the current map. This needs to happen when we start fresh.



Edit: The nature of the game for all of us is basically the same: When starting out new, stake a claim and mine down. It's that close proximity of mining and then our desire to build on top of our mines for the sake of efficiency. Why move stuff when I can just build right here? Then, we become attached to our claim, store all our crap, mine more, build a titanic basement, mine and build and experiment with redstone and mine some more. This localized congestion is what has lead to downtown's pokey game play and crappy frame rates. If we move our mining operations out, build a transportation network to make moving materials toward center easier, then build display buildings etc. I think we will see the following:

1) Improved frame rates throughout the game;
2) A nicer looking, more organized downtown area;
3) More minable resources per player
4) Less overall congestion

Then, if we want to build some whacky, zany, crazy redstone farm/sorter/thingamabooger, we can head to our out-in-the-boonies claims and knock ourselves out!



Perhaps we could also leave the CC world running so we can log in at will if we want to return to unfinished projects? Turtle, would having two "servers" running in unison be too much for the server?

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!

Last edited by kscherer : 2015-11-04 at 17:05.
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Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: A town that Germany forgot.
 
2015-11-04, 19:37

Ken, are you absolutely sure that items within chests are rendered? I ask because unless you are talking about mods that show items within chests (which do have this issue -- I believe we banned their use at some point when we were using ftb (talk about low fps!)), this doesn't make any sense whatsoever with how they are coded in vanilla minecraft (not least of which is the fact that you never actually see any items in the chest even when looking directly at it). While chests do cause fps drop (they are more complex to render than normal blocks, like hoppers), I don't think it has ever been suggested that it is the items within them causing the fps drop.

I never really responded to the supposition that I installed the beacons around my base to deal with lag or low fps (which on its face doesn't make sense as going faster would simply make things appear choppier), but really i just added them to move and mine faster. I only noticed very low fps occasionally, but, and this is important, most of my efforts in the basement were at bedrock level and the fps drops there are negligible.

Still, it's sad that that the complexity of cc has caused such issues over time, and really any complex area is going to suffer the same fate (cc is probably not helped by the massive amounts of digging underneath or the tall complex structures above). What I would recommend is that you have designated mining areas that get wiped on a consistent basis, otherwise you will simply dot the map with low fps regions. Also: spread farms out, to reduce entity spawns and counts. [an aside: What drives fps is what is locally rendering, not what is necessarily active on the server. While the spawn chunks are active, they do not render when you are outside of their render distance -- what this means is that lag can be explained by lots of stuff happening in the spawn chunks, but low fps is a mostly local issue. (lots of stuff generally means an active player causing the server to recalculate redstone/entities)]

Last edited by Dr. Bobsky : 2015-11-04 at 19:53.
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2015-11-05, 00:01

I have nothing to add, I just wanted to commend your use of nested brackets.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-11-05, 00:03

Well, I was watching a video to build a monster iron farm. The guy doing it mentioned the rendering of items in chests. He was playing vanilla in creative mode and ran a number of tests demonstrating reduced frame rates as his chests filled up. I took him at his word.

No link available.

As far as lag/fps, you are right. Lag is caused when the server is overwhelmed; FPS drops are local (playerside), which is why some people's frame rates are lower than others.

It is the FPS issue I am discussing, not lag. We (the players) can do nothing about lag. That is either on Turtle's end, or the internet connection sucks. FPS can either be fixed by everyone buying new computers (if I win the lottery, I'll hook ya'll up ) or by eliminating highly concentrated zones of mining/building/redstoning. By segregating downtown into a no-mining zone, we eliminate all of the underground activity that I believe is leading to such slow frame rates. And by placing some limits on above-ground activity, we add to the help pile.

You are correct that in outward mining we will build areas with local FPS issues, however, those issues will be isolated in unrelated chunks, thus lessening the FPS strain on individual's computers (not to mention they might get wiped regularly, further reducing the stress). Mines will most likely be separated by hundreds of blocks and remain out of each other's rendered chunks, thus lightening the load, and keeping that load away from downtown. When we are on the server, we will be able to prance about in downtown without all of that busy crap dragging our systems down. As we move away from downtown, we will likely never load more than one or two operations at any one time, as opposed to the current strategy which has us loading many tens+.

By limiting downtown construction to, say, small-town style buildings and no underground development/complex redstone machines we can really clean up the performance. Big builds would do best in a periphery beginning at, say, 500+ blocks from the center and rimming a square, much like what is currently going on around the spawn chunks in CC. Grey's and my big builds (the Museum, Castle Whammerstein, Tall Town, etc.) are outside the spawn chunks and cause little to no FPS drops due to their isolation from all the other busy-things. Also, downtown is not in any way affected by their immense scales, redstone BS (like my Palace), or mining operations (I have a huge one below and east of Whammerstein). By moving outward, we separate these things one from another and drastically reduce the strain placed on each system.

Take, for instance, the mob trap. It has very slow FPS. Granted, it's where it is, not to isolate FPS, but to isolate mob spawning. If it were near downtown, the whole place would be an FPS nightmare! Same goes for my sorter beneath the Palace. Much like yours, it drags down FPS to unbearable rates (and I'm out there with no one else around). Stick all that crap together in a concentrated area where it is all loading simultaneously and things tank in a hurry.

My line of thinking would drastically reduce these accumulative problems and stretch it all out. Personally, I'd much rather encounter small FPS "zones" in the periphery where each builder is responsible for his own fun, rather than a titanic and increasingly larger zone where we all gather together and combine our fun until it is, well, no longer fun.

I really don't know what the numbers should look like. I'm just tossing ideas. I do think a 500x500 area at the crosshairs should be off limits to anything other than community builds (the exchange, chx joint, post office, etc.). Just looking at MC and chunks, a chunk is 16x16x256. MC will load a maximum viewing distance of 32 chunks (512 blocks). So, for those with good systems, the maximum load in any direction is 512 blocks from your feet. That means anything within that viewing range is loaded. I keep my system to 14 chunks (all it can handle) which means I can only "see" 224 blocks in any direction, but anything exposed inside those 224 blocks is rendered. In the downtown area, when I stand at our current crossroads (the Needle), that means your place, MT, the needle, the chicken joint, hell, all of downtown is rendered. But it's not the aboveground business that's causing the trouble (other than 15,000 blocks of animated trouble forming the walls of MT ), but the underground crap, including mines (everybody), redstone machines (or their remnants ), titanic basements (Brad and Ken), huge holes filled with gigantic portals ( ), a monster-sized tree farm (or two ) and accompanying charcoal factory, various underground storage facilities of untold size, etc.

All that crap is rendered on my system and my FPS tanks. When I get out to the sticks, the FPS rises to very acceptable levels and the game becomes fun, again. In town, it sucks. I can think of only one plausible solution, and that is long-term planning.

Like I said, I'm even considering undoing the mountain of work that went into my item sorter because the Palace is almost unbearable. But it's at least in the sticks and doesn't add to downtown's nightmare.

If anyone else has ideas, please toss them in. Better to have a game plan, now, than a pissing match on day 1.

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tidewater Virginia
 
2015-11-05, 02:05

I can run two servers fine as long as there isn't heavy traffic in both. I would likely run into an issue with storage though since the SSD everyone bought is small and won't house two growing large worlds. The SSD is 64GB and the main world takes up ~45GB right now for the whole VM. I would end up moving CC to the HDD and run the new world on the SSD. Of course a new SSD would allow both to run on an SSD which I'm game for too. I think I might actually have a first generation Intel SSD at 80GB collecting dust right now.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2015-11-05, 09:55

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Well, I was watching a video to build a monster iron farm. The guy doing it mentioned the rendering of items in chests. He was playing vanilla in creative mode and ran a number of tests demonstrating reduced frame rates as his chests filled up. I took him at his word.
He was probably talking about Item Entities, which are extra bits of code attached to a chest to remember what it contains. They do add to the machine overhead, but not nearly as much as literally rendering every block face inside every chest. My Stone storage alone would bring 13topia to a grinding halt if that was the case.

So it goes.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-11-05, 11:55

I may have misinterpreted what I read/heard. Either way, the point stands.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-11-05, 12:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
I can run two servers fine as long as there isn't heavy traffic in both. I would likely run into an issue with storage though since the SSD everyone bought is small and won't house two growing large worlds. The SSD is 64GB and the main world takes up ~45GB right now for the whole VM. I would end up moving CC to the HDD and run the new world on the SSD. Of course a new SSD would allow both to run on an SSD which I'm game for too. I think I might actually have a first generation Intel SSD at 80GB collecting dust right now.
SSDs are pretty cheap, now. A Crucial MX200 250GB can be had for around a $100. I'll chip in if other folks want to help spread the cost around. I'd really like to keep both servers running. There will come a time when we want to revisit old things.

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!
  quote
Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: A town that Germany forgot.
 
2015-11-05, 12:40

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
He was probably talking about Item Entities, which are extra bits of code attached to a chest to remember what it contains. They do add to the machine overhead, but not nearly as much as literally rendering every block face inside every chest. My Stone storage alone would bring 13topia to a grinding halt if that was the case.
But an FPS drop on a client machine for extra bits of code handled server side?

On this point, shouldn't the AdvancedOpenGL option kill blocks rendering that are occluded?
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2015-11-06, 11:52

No idea whatsoever... Notch lives on through his code. NOTCH!
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drewprops
Magnificent Basturd™
sagacious-d
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2015-11-10, 08:56

How are we sending payments?
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-11-10, 10:18

Send cash or gift cards to Ken's Mexican Vacation Fund via …

Wait, are we talking about the same thing?






  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-11-13, 18:36

Since I'm doing mockups anyway, I thought I'd go ahead and mock up the crossroads I envision for 2.0 Downtown (and whatever we call it).

0,0 would be right where that tower sits in the middle of the street intersection.

The street and sidewalk bits are half slabs laying on the ground so mobs won't spawn on them. The four intersecting lots would be for Com/Ex, Post Office, Chicken Mart, etc.

Quote:

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!
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drewprops
Magnificent Basturd™
sagacious-d
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2015-11-13, 19:27

Shouldn't those have cloverleafs?

Hit a lever as you pass to switch the tracks?

Come on guys, let's not muck about doing dumb stuff now.

Get busy and do this right.


...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2015-11-15, 15:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
but then got worse, again, after I built the Monument Tower. I never factored in the delay caused by 15,000 animated Prismarine bricks. didn't even think about it. Not until I was up around 180 blocks above ground and was afraid of running off the edge because the frame rates were so crappy. It's terrible, and the only solution is to bring it down (or move it should copy/paste become an option, again).

...

There's no way to fix the current map. This needs to happen when we start fresh.
Soooo… last night and this morning, I decided to try some Minecraft science because I wasn't willing to give up on downtown just yet. I pulled a copy of the map from the server to load up into a single-player game, and I spent a few hours experimenting with commands in various places to try to isolate the biggest offenders. On my system running vanilla Minecraft with draw distance set to "normal", my experiments suggest like the current heaviest drags downtown are caused by…

*drumroll*

Spoiler (click to toggle):
item frames, minecraft hoppers, chickens (and their item drops), sheep, mooshrooms, and hostile baddies underground


I found that the game was spending a disproportionately high amount of processing time dealing with entities when traveling through the downtown area. So, I tried nuking entity types one by one, reloading a fresh copy of the world between takes. Wiping these entities around the downtown area generally doubles the frame rate for me. I measured by finding a particularly bad area, and standing and watching that same spot with each experiment. At this spot, it went from consistently 27 FPS to consistently 54 FPS. This makes playing through that area much smoother. It's not quite "new world" fast, but it's significantly and noticeably better.




If you are familiar with the debug screen's output, you'll see that this cut's the total entity count by more than half and the visible entity count to about one-seventh from this position.

I'd *really* like to do the same kind of cleanup operation on the main server to see if it has as much of an impact on gameplay performance. There's a poorly-lit ravine that runs under and just north of town that I'd go into and light up to reduce baddie spawn rates. Removing the other aforementioned entities would mean effectively disabling the following things around downtown:

Spoiler (click to toggle):
  • bobsky's chicken farm
  • turtle's chicken farm
  • turtle's villager crop farm
  • brad's animal house
  • grey's mooshroom house
  • grey's snowball farm
  • various item frame signs
    • the record store
    • fronts of the animal and mooshroom houses
    • the stoplight
    • the chicken farm
    • the fishing hut by the chicken farm
    • around the giant glass dragon egg
    • more in nearby places I'm not sure where, but the /kill command will get them nonetheless!


Any immediate objections?

I haven't tried replacing MT's animated texture with a static block type yet. I'll try that this afternoon too and report back with findings.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
drewprops
Magnificent Basturd™
sagacious-d
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2015-11-15, 17:03

Do it!


...
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-11-15, 19:14

I'm all for it, but I have no vested energy in any of those things. I would propose that the single most important item on that list (I think to all of us, considering the need for food) is the chicken hut. Might I suggest that it either be the last to go, or get moved someplace? That single structure saves all of us from the constant need to hunt for food. I know that it's existence gives me the time to do far more important things (like build Nether Hub 2.0, the upcoming rail build, etc.) without having to worry over food.

Not sure where to stick the thing, but it needs to be somewhere.

Even if I have to rebuild it.

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2015-11-15, 19:19

I'll admit I'm actually tempted to simplify the chicken hut (among other things) with a couple of command blocks.

I wouldn't want to go overboard with command blocks, but they do provide an interesting low-performance-cost solution to things like the old Trader Steve's.

Maybe when we establish our new home...

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2015-11-15, 20:20

I turned off the hut a month or so ago when downtown lag was first mentioned. Also culled the chickens down to only a few per level instead of dozens, so that place shouldn't be contributing too much to the lag. I'm OK with nuking whatever you need to though. Maybe leave 2 mooshrooms like Noah intended?

So it goes.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tidewater Virginia
 
2015-11-15, 20:55

I'll go remove the minecarts from under the fields as well as kill the chickens near my house. I'll leave the hoppers to the egg chest for now, but will remove them later if needed. I'll remove all of them for the fields.

I'll leave the slaves though.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tidewater Virginia
 
2015-11-15, 23:14

I killed all the chickens but left the hoppers full of eggs. They don't seem to have any effect on the FPS. Removing the hopper minecarts does seem to have made a big difference though.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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RowdyScot
Ice Arrow Sniper
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Great Bay Temple
Send a message via AIM to RowdyScot Send a message via Skype™ to RowdyScot 
2015-11-15, 23:15

I'd say at this point...It virtually had infinite anyway. Use the command blocks for the sake of lag reduction.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-11-16, 01:17

^ This
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Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: A town that Germany forgot.
 
2015-11-16, 15:13

I am glad the chicken hut is still being used -- I was always concerned that the sheer number of chickens in the thing might cause undue lag, but at the beginning it was either that or produce barely enough chicken for myself let alone other players. If my two cents are worth the metal they are minted from: by all means replace the mechanism of the hut with command blocks -- I would guess you would need a player to push a button to fill a chest or get dispensed a stack of chicken rather than have a redstone clock checking the how full the chests are, and I am a-ok with that. There's a lot the command blocks seem to be able to do to improve the playability of the game.

If I may: couldn't you also set downtown to be a hostile mob-free zone, and/or fill in underground areas with stone so that resource gathering is non-existent and spawns in dark regions are eliminated, and any building underground would be done with prudence rather than all out resource collection. But I do think that ultimately any region with lots of structures above or below ground will cause reduction in quality of gameplay, with more complexity increasing the ill-effects.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-11-16, 15:39

I think that's a good suggestion, Bruce, although downtown is littered with basements belonging to players past and present. I think it makes great sense for the 2.0 jump, though.

Also, Brad, I hope you don't think I was suggesting that we "give up on downtown". My purpose for this thread has less to do with the current map as it has to do with whatever comes after this. It seems increasingly obvious that 2.0 will require us to start from scratch, and that's where my focus is as far as "cleaning up" for the sake of performance.

However, if doing some maintenance downtown will help things, I say let's do it.

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!
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