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MC: Currency


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View Poll Results: Minecraft Currency?
Yes, currency would be helpful. 3 21.43%
Meh. Brad or Turtle gives me whatever I ask for. 5 35.71%
No. Currency is the debbil. Unless I can get my face on it. Can I? 5 35.71%
Gah. I'm fucking sick of you Minecraft people. 3 21.43%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

MC: Currency
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arteggio
There are some who call me… Timm?
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Within
 
2011-04-26, 09:26

Knock-knock, is the door still open?

At first thought, I would support a currency hands-down. It goes along with my obsession of recreating real world counterparts in MC where, seemingly, they could be beneficial. (Remember my desire a few months ago to organize and numerize the skyways? This idea is still scratching at the back of my mind with its claws.)

Though, some good points have been brought up against a currency. I once wondered to myself if it would turn too much into a system like Runescape, which I figured others wouldn't like since MC contrasts a lot from that game, in part because you don't need to work your way up a cast system and pay to feed yourself.

Now I don't know where I stand. I like the 'organization' that the system could bring, but bartering — and sharing! — are important in our world. If a currency comes about I can see bartering staying (You have X, I have Y. You want Y, I want X. Trade.), but I think sharing might become diminished. For example, I offered Robo my two-month collection of black wool for his lovely Lego house. I didn't expect and don't want anything in return. I had it sitting there for two months with no use in sight; on the other hand, Robo had a use for it. But would I have donated it if I could have sold it for, say, lapis or diamond?

But, whether or not I would have still donated it, I support a currency because of things like lapis and diamond. Yeah, they're rare, so what, Notch and his resource formulas aren't godsend or anything. This is a game; diamond tools help us mine more efficiently, and there's no reason at all that lapis should be more rare than red flowers. I have mined only three diamonds since Brad first gave me away a stack in January, and I have not mined any lapis since their inclusion. I'm not too fond of asking for things either, but I sucked it up and got some lapis from Brad because I knew it would be ages before I might come across any.

But I must admit, I'm a lazy-ass miner. I dislike mining. I didn't know if I would mentally survive the task of digging out my moat, which only goes about 20 blocks deep on average, and is just two wide. How the hell did spec stay sane digging his chunk error mine? How did bbsky mine the resources for the Skyranch?! Maybe it's just me.

I recognize that mining is an integral part of the game, but I dislike it. I want to build.

So, at least a part of the debate over a currency system boils down to: is our AN MC world there to mine, or to build? Mining is necessary to build in a vanilla environment; with our local godmins, we don't "need" to mine. We could just build. It is these buildings that we enjoy sharing with each other. How much bigger would our would be with structures if we didn't have to spend a proportionate time mining?

Is there any merit to mining all of your own stuff? Personally, I don't see any merit in it. I'm not into spending hundreds of virtual hours away from my real life if it isn't going to add to it. Mining does not add to the time I take away from the rest of my life. Building does.

That is my personal take on this. I see a currency system as a way to mine less than I already do, and let me tell you, that makes me damn well giddy. I want to build. (This brings up the question though if the admins will open a fully-stocked store that we can buy from, or if the markets will still be based upon our own minings, in which case I might turn out a poor, old, stubborn man.)



Now, I have a novel idea. It might be the simplicity 709's looking for after everyone's spent two pages debating the exquisite details, the pros and cons and the in-betweens.

Why don't we try it for a month.

There are too many variables, too many players, to try to figure out in words if a small virtual economy will function in game. Let's just try it. Who knows, maybe bobsky will end up loving it and 709 will be pulling his hairs out individually.

Bobsky suggested that we propose how a currency might be useful: well, I don't know. I like the idea because it might be useful, so I want to see if it is or it is not.

In my opinion, none of this thread has concretely determined whether a currency will be beneficial or harmful to our ways. So, I'm not convinced that this is (yet) a bad idea.

If we do try it, I think there is a primary detail that needs to be figured out quickly, going along the lines of Captain Drew weeping in the corner as the simple days in his playground are threatened: do we have to dig our own dungeons to attract slime to use as our own money, or will we all be granted some amount from the beginning of the trial which we must manage between buying-&-selling, and then kill slime for extra income?

I say we try it. I want to try it. If it doesn't work, then we have concrete evidence that it won't. I don't think we have any such evidence yet.
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Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-04-26, 11:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by arteggio View Post
Bobsky suggested that we propose how a currency might be useful: well, I don't know.
Well, I'm convinced.

Like Kraetos, you seem to be arguing for something different than 709 — a closed, "realistic" economy, rather than casino chips or bubblegum or the little prize tickets you get from arcades.

I still don't see how Kraetos's idea of receiving slimeball "grants" for new projects, and then — let's be real — giving those right back to Bradmart: The Only Store With Lapis! is any different than just asking Brad for lapis. It would apparently make people feel less bad for asking, since they had "earned" the lapis, but how is that different than earning the lapis by simply using it to make a cool addition to the server?

I'm going to posit something. The fact that people feel bad about bugging Brad for resources is the closest thing we can ever get to a functioning economy. It's what preserves scarcity. Nobody wants to bug Brad for every little thing, that's why you have to find most things on your own. I'd argue that social construct has worked out pretty well so far — most of us find most things on our own, and if one of our designs requires blue or gold, we have a way to still get some in a reasonable timeframe. But we have to really want that blue or gold. This balance has given us the world we've built thus far — it's not too golden, and it's not too brown. I like the world we've built thus far.

But change our guilt-based economy to one where the admins are the involuntary treasurers of some attempt at a formalized expression of value, and that all changes. (How's that for loaded language? ) Suddenly, there's no shame in bugging Brad for slimeballs. After all, I glass-iffied a skyway! And Bryson built a public cobble generator! We earned them. We're owed. I mean sure, we would have done all that anyway, since this is after all a game and just playing it is reward enough. But Bryson needs some gold, and I needs some lapis — and even if we didn't, we might later, so we better bug Brad for our paychecks now. It just seems like a Bad Idea, to me. Especially for the admins. A month of twenty Minecrafters bugging Brad for Gooey Guilt-free Grants and he'll wish he had kids.

The server has been a smashing success so far, at least as far as I'm concerned, without money. (If anyone out there isn't having worlds of fun, speak up, or something.) People are freely sharing their unneeded resources, just because it's neighborly. Public infrastructure is still getting built, just because building things is fun to do. People aren't asking for free stacks of every little thing, because nobody wants to be That Guy. It works, and works well, and you know what they say about things that aren't broken. I'm not at all opposed to 709's idea of using slimeballs as something to wager, and I know that he's flabbergasted as to why this thread is so far off from his original bubblegum idea. (It's probably because "currency" sort of implies a closed system that everybody has to use.)

What we have now is a world without money that still works! It's practically utopia, and I don't want to fuck it up. Don't make me quote John Lennon.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-04-26, 11:46



I don't mind the guilt-based economy either, honestly. It's worked so far, and you're right, it's not like we have people asking where Brad is every second of the day because they need something. Whatevs. I thought it was worth a discussion ... even if it went wildly out of control (probably in good part to my loaded poll questions ).

It's not like we still couldn't use slimeballs as casino tokens. Want to gamble? Kill some slimes. Or here, take some of mine and have fun.

So it goes.
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alcimedes
I shot the sherrif.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Send a message via ICQ to alcimedes  
2011-04-26, 11:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post

Anyways, we should all way in on this.
That's what she said.
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arteggio
There are some who call me… Timm?
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Within
 
2011-04-26, 11:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
Like Kraetos, you seem to be arguing for something different than 709 — a closed, "realistic" economy, rather than casino chips or bubblegum or the little prize tickets you get from arcades.
I think I did sound that way, while juggling my various thoughts.

But no, I don't think it has to be closed, or imperative that everyone make use of it even. I want to see if it can work as an alternative, perhaps. When the situation could call for something different than what we've done. Or what if the currency could only be used for the hard-to-gets? (Is that what 709 was originally proposing so many posts ago? ) Money usable for: lapis, diamonds, golden apples, etc. Why would wool or sand need to "cost" anything? Go punch a frikkin sheep or mine up a beach! Even I'm not that lazy.

Quote:
I still don't see how Kraetos's idea of receiving slimeball "grants" for new projects, and then — let's be real — giving those right back to Bradmart
Yeah, I see this point. I have no good counter argument for it, so. My lazy side would still like to see a full-stocked market, at least for the rarities and valuables; of course, my dignified side would hate going there often and "just taking". Slimeballs: never feel bad again!

I know some fellow players oppose this get-it-for-nothing, but, I don't know if I care. I just want to build. If, for example, any of us could gather any resource at any quantity without mining those resources, I don't see how our world will be debased from it. We will still build quality things, and a ton of gilded mansions won't pop up. Could you imagine if kids (and other people) had to build their own lego bricks before building structures with those bricks? That's just how I feel with the Minecraft ordeal. I don't feel a week of mining is worth building Great Things, but I do think it's worth building Great Things. Call this a personal video game paradox in me if you want.

Bobsky's Skyranch would've been done months ago and he could have built three more since then. Parapa Palace could be surrounded by a whole Zelda Universe. I know this anti-mining stance is not exactly the point of this thread, but I still wanted to say I'd rather be building more or less non-stop than digging for the sake of digging. I don't know.

Even without going this far, to Get Everything For Nothing, I don't think a currency will harm things. From my point of view, one would potentially have more time to build, without the need to hunt down the little obscure blocks or hoping someone will have them and be generous. Obviously, more time to build is the most important thing in my little world.

Quote:
The fact that people feel bad about bugging Brad for resources is the closest thing we can ever get to a functioning economy.
I don't think our current economy has been brought up this exact way yet here (or I only just really took it in), and I think I'll have to go with you on this. Admittedly, the balance of one's self-dignity and the degree of generosity felt by Brad has done us well.

Quote:
A month of twenty Minecrafters bugging Brad for Gooey Guilt-free Grants and he'll wish he had kids.
I would still like to try it — even if just for two weeks — to see how some of us integrate it, how others go all luddite about it, etc. I'm interested, because I like the idea but I see that perhaps it won't work. Or, it will work a little bit, and that little bit can be retained!

Quote:
Don't make me quote John Lennon.
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-04-26, 12:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
That's what she said.
God. I really can't believe I did that.
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Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-04-26, 12:06

Okay, I think there's an important part of this which I haven't made clear. (And for the record, I'm not arguing for a "closed" economy.) An important part of this economy is a centralized store where you buy goods. When you get a slimeball grant from Brad, you don't go back to Brad for whatever you need, you go to the store.

If your grant is big enough then yes, take it directly. But what if it's "I'm going to need some colored dyes and I don't yet know how much or what colors?" Or, "I need a splash of glowstone here." Then the slimeball store comes in handy since you can go pick up a small amount of dye without hassling Brad/turtle.

I don't care about simulating an economy. I don't care if some players decide to "make a living" off selling goods instead of mining themselves. I would most certainly sell lapis and diamond tools in Bridgeport because I have a small surplus (very small diamond surplus, decent sized lapis surplus... my mine is HUGE) and everyone wants them. In turn I'd want to buy black ink from the store, or, other players. I just think there should be a dye/rare ore/nether material shop in the center of town, and I also want individual players to have stores to efficiently deal with our surpluses.

I actually like mining. It's monotonous and repetitive but I like exploring underground and building big cave networks. So I have a good deal of valuable ores and no way to unload them. I suppose I could just stand on the skyway in Bridgeport and make it rain, but I'd rather trade/sell them for things I need.

Example: through this thread I've learned that robo has lots of wool. I have lots of lapis. He needed lapis for his project but he got it from Brad. He could have "bought" it from me and in turn I would have been able to "buy" wool from his store. This is an improvement for 2 reasons:

1) If everyone has a store, everyone else can check other player's stores for stuff they need.
2) If everyone has a store, and we use slimeball currencies, transactions can occur between players even if one of the players is logged off.

This is all heavily reliant on the honor system, but except for the Great Sword Heist, we haven't had any problems, and even that might have been a bug. You guys are clearly thinking about this in more detail than I am, and whether or not that's good or bad, I'm not sure. Robo raises some excellent points about potential snags.

But in my mind, this reduces the amount of effort Brad has to put in. Maybe I'm wrong but I think that the presence of a store would limit the amount of material requests. He'll have to keep the store stocked, as well as put slimeballs into the economy as he sees fit. But once that's in place I don't have to pester him for glowstone or whatever.

Honestly, I just want shops and casinos. We need money to make that happen. That's what this is about, not limiting admin magic or simulating an economy. If we end up doing both in the process, then it's just an added bonus.

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope

Last edited by Kraetos : 2011-04-26 at 12:49.
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Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-04-26, 12:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
God. I really can't believe I did that.
Don't worry about it. I once wrote how are you dong. And man on man on man instead of man oh man oh man. Of course, I have to be the one who makes those typos.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
  quote
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-04-26, 12:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
Okay, I think there's an important part of this which I haven't made clear. (And for the record, I'm not arguing for a "closed" economy.) An important part of this economy is a centralized store where you buy goods. When you get a slimeball grant from Brad, you don't go back to Brad for whatever you need, you go to the store.
But I'm not convinced that other players will be selling the rarest materials back to the store. What could a player like bobsky possibly want with slimeballs? He doesn't need to buy anything.

I think a store would mainly just be people pawning nearly worthless stuff back to the store. I might trade stacks of wheat for lapis, but I don't think anyone would do the opposite. Nobody's going to go to the store and be all take my diamonds, seeds please. This means the valuable stuff will still essentially have to come from Brad (or turtle).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos
If your grant is big enough then yes, take it directly. But what if it's "I'm going to need some colored dyes and I don't yet know how much or what colors?" Then the slimeball store comes in handy since you can go pick up a small amount of dye without hassling Brad/turtle.
You just really want that red and black wool, don't you.

Quote:
I don't care about simulating an economy. I don't care if some players decide to make a living off selling goods instead of mining themselves. I just think there should be a dye/rare ore/nether material shop in the center of town, and I also want individual players to have stores to efficiently deal with our surpluses.

Example: through this thread I've learned that robo has lots of wool. I have lots of lapis. He needed lapis for his project but he got it from Brad. He could have "bought" it from me and in turn I would have been able to "buy" wool from his store. This is an improvement for 2 reasons:

1) If everyone has a store, everyone else can check other player's stores for stuff they need.
2) If everyone has a store, and we use slimeball currencies, transactions can occur between players even if one of the players is logged off.

This is all heavily reliant on the honor system, but except for the Great Sword Heist, we haven't had any problems, and even that might have been a bug.
Well, when I needed the lapis, I didn't have lots of wool.

It sounds like what we maybe could use is a message board in town, or some sort of electronic message board, where people could post things like "Will trade for lapis. -werejack" and then people with lapis who needed other things could check the werecave and see if I had what they needed. I think the main problem is just knowing who is looking for what, not the fact that it's too hard to both be online at the same time. (And a trading thread here wouldn't even require that. I wouldn't have to be online for you to put blue dye in my dyes box and take out the red dye, or whatever.)

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong

Last edited by Robo : 2011-04-26 at 12:44.
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Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-04-26, 12:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
What could a player like bobsky possibly want with slimeballs? He doesn't need to buy anything.
Nether materials.

Quote:
You just really want that red and black wool, don't you.
I find acquiring red dye to be the biggest PITA in the game. Once flowers are gone, they're gone, and the only way to find them is to just keep going away from the spawn. And I don't want to expand the world just to find some damn dye. To add insult to injury, there are pretty red flowers EVERYWHERE which, don't get me wrong, I love the aesthetic, but every time I see that rose patch at the spawn I think "ROSES, Y U NO RENEWABLE?"

I have all this blue dye and no red dye. I have no obvious means to convert one to the other. This makes me

Quote:
What it sounds like we maybe could use is maybe a message board in town, or some sort of electronic message board, where people could post things like "Will trade for lapis. -werejack" and then people with lapis who needed other things could check the werecave and see if I had what they needed. I think the main problem is just knowing who is looking for what, not the fact that it's too hard to both be online at the same time. (And a trading thread here wouldn't even require that. I wouldn't have to be online for you to put blue dye in my dyes box and take out the red wool, or whatever.)
There are lots of ways to make trading like this more efficient, but "hey you have wool for sale, let me leave you some money" is by far the most efficient. Whether or not we implement currency, I still plan on building some sort of trading/auction house in the coming months so everyone's surpluses can be on display.

Maybe 709 and I should just make our own economy. With blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the economy!

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope

Last edited by Kraetos : 2011-04-26 at 16:14.
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Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-04-26, 12:51

I just put my surplus stuff in the Exchange. It makes me sad to see it so empty

How much red dye do you need, K? I think you might have told me but I forgot.

I just realized I'm going to need a bit more than I thought — going to use orange instead of yellow in parts. Hopefully flowers regrow in 10.6 or whatever. And hopefully there's an easier way to get brown dye

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
  quote
Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-04-26, 12:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
I just put my surplus stuff in the Exchange. It makes me sad to see it so empty

How much red dye do you need, K? I think you might have told me but I forgot.

I just realized I'm going to need a bit more than I thought — going to use orange instead of yellow in parts. Hopefully flowers regrow in 10.6 or whatever. And hopefully there's an easier way to get brown dye
I ended up cannibalizing red wool from other older projects. I still need black dye, though. And wool, which I will gladly trade you lapis for.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-04-26, 13:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
Maybe 709 and I should just make our own economy. With blackjack. And hookers.
Black hookers named some form of jack (male and female).

Because in the future...
  quote
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-04-26, 13:03

The only spare wool I have right now is white, and possibly dark grey, though I might use the dark grey instead of brown if I don't have enough brown in the end. Red, yellow, green, blue — I need them all, I'm afraid.

That's right. I'm building Google.

The good news is that I think new squid are spawning. I killed four squid with numbers in the low 100s. After that, I found more with numbers over 400K in the same area. So F3 around a bit.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
  quote
arteggio
There are some who call me… Timm?
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Within
 
2011-04-26, 13:13

I was just about to come amend my ideas when Kraetos beat me to the same concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
Okay, I think there's an important part of this which I haven't made clear.

…words words words…
This.

Once Brad grants us slimeballs, that is all we ever get from him. We do not get more slimeballs unless we kill our own slimes.

Then, we buy items as we need them and we sell items to make money. All of our currency 'stays within' this system. If you balance your expenditures of items with sales from your own items, you should never really run out of slimeballs and need to ask for more. (Which would make the currency system pointless.)

I think the Bradmart should be stocked with only the rare and unobtainable items. Let diamond and lapis be expensive. Let netherrack and glowstone be moderately cheap, since no one else can obtain it.

Then, all of our own stores can sell everything. Besides occasional surpluses, I do not see most of us having a stack of diamonds or lapis laying around to sell.

But if one player goes to the trouble to mine a beach and now has 15 extra stacks with no immediate or foreseeable use, why can't that player be monetarily compensated for the time they took mining all that sand? It's as if their time spent mining can be compensated, time which they were not spending on building or acquiring other materials they might need. Sell the sand for some slimeballs, and use the slimeballs to buy, say, lapis, which would not have been obtainable while mining sand.

Taking an example between myself and bobsky: I have a full chest of dirt, and let's say bobsky hadn't yet acquired as much dirt as he needs and a full currency system was in place. Say he doesn't want to flatten any more mountains, or simply doesn't want to take the time to do so (he's been building the 'Ranch for months — time for some hills atop!).

All that dirt I mined up is useless to me, but not to bobsky. Bobsky compensates my time spent mining dirt with a dirt-chest worth's of slimeballs.

Now I can go use all of the slimeballs on some expensive diamonds from the Bradmart and mine cobble more efficiently than with iron or any worse tool.

Thus, bobsky didn't have to spend time acquiring a ton of dirt. I didn't have to spend my time going down deep for diamonds with crappy tools. Win-win.

There, my proposal for how currency would be useful.

It' simple to set up; all we have to do is see if we can make it work between ourselves. If a player does not want to partake in money, they can mine their own resources, as we have all been doing since December. Currency would be an evolution of the economy, opening up the possibility of becoming more time-efficient as the ultimate end, I think.

I want personal stores too. As has been said, one single Bradmart, operated by the person that gives out slimeballs and resources into the market where slimeballs would be used, is sort of pointless. So, remove the admins from the equation except where sensible (again, the rarities and unobtainables). Besides for this niche market, the economy is controlled by the each of us.

The moment Brad wishes he had kids, we can end it. Until then, I totally want to do it now.


In the meantime, re: yellow flowers and black wool: how much do each of you need of each? I have 1.5 stacks of both.

EDIT: I over-estimated my black wool (forgot that that was what I gave to Robo ). I have 19 black wool and an ink blot with no need for them.

Last edited by arteggio : 2011-04-26 at 13:23.
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drewprops
Magnificent Basturd™
sagacious-d
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2011-04-26, 13:43

Bleh!
  quote
Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-04-26, 13:44

Arteggio: nailed it.

Infuse two inventories' worth of slimeballs (72 stacks, about 4000 total, 4-5 stacks per player) into the game via post office and then let it roll. Brad can redistribute slimeballs from the General Store's coffers as he sees fit. Maybe he gives them away, maybe they're grants, maybe they're awards for public works or cool projects. There would be a little currency inflation from natural slimes, but it would be negligible. The store would stock Diamonds, Lapis, Roses, Ink sacs, Cocoa beans, Soul Sand, Netherrack, and Glowstone.

That's what I'm going for, anyways. There might be unforseen complications but I think this is pretty straightforward, and it means we can acquire rare/unobtainable materials far more efficiently, even without an op present. That's about as succinct as I can make this proposal, and if people still don't want it, we can forget about it. No harm no foul, my casino will simply have an internal economy and I'll continue to bug the ops for roses and glowstone

Speaking of the casino, it's almost done, and since it looks like we're not going with currency, I'll ask an op for a ton of slimes and use them as chips, exchangable for diamonds. The payout for a straight up bet will be around 30:1, so someone could potentially win a shit ton of my diamonds (But full disclosure: the odds and payouts will mimic a real roulette table so if you play indefinitely against the house (me) you will lose eventually.)

My Casino is a reputable establishment. If you win and I can't pay, I'll mine your diamonds myself

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope

Last edited by Kraetos : 2011-04-26 at 14:07.
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Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-04-26, 14:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by arteggio View Post
I was just about to come amend my ideas when Kraetos beat me to the same concept. [...] Once Brad grants us slimeballs, that is all we ever get from him. We do not get more slimeballs unless we kill our own slimes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
Arteggio: nailed it.

Infuse two inventories' worth of slimeballs (72 stacks, about 4000 total, 4-5 stacks per player) into the game via post office and then let it roll. Brad can redistribute slimeballs from the General Store's coffers as he sees fit. Maybe he gives them away, maybe they're grants, maybe they're awards for public works or cool projects.
It would seem you two aren't quite talking about the "same concept" at all.

arteggio, your use case scenario with the dirt and the diamonds is a nice story of a mutually beneficial trade, but I'm not sure what part of it requires a currency. Couldn't you just trade the dirt chest for the diamonds?

I don't think there's enough different items in Minecraft for currency to really be needed. The diamonds you'd get from bobsky would be identical to the ones at Bradmart. It's not like you can choose cut, color, and clarity. There's only a handful of really valuable blocks and trading for those will only get easier as more people join.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
  quote
Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-04-26, 14:59

Sure we are. Money has to get out of Bradmart somehow. I think what arteggio means is that there would be no more magic slimeballs after the initial infusion.

That said, I'm about ready to back off from this whole currency idea. The casino will run fine without global currency. I thought it would be nice to have a centralized repository for rare/unobtainable blocks, but apparently everyone thinks its more trouble than its worth, which I totally understand.

Last edited by Kraetos : 2011-04-26 at 16:25.
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billybobsky
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
 
2011-04-26, 15:43

As I said, I won't be participating in the currency economy, and it will likely affect my tendency of sharing resources, because I don't like the idea of influencing an economy I have no part in. I only say likely because I believe in helping out when I can.

I have a better idea:

Use the communal exchange for its intended purpose: drop off excessive materials.

Make a thread in this forum for material needs, with the caveat that added requests are made after checking the comm exchange.

For those who feel bad for asking for things and feeling that this doesn't help assuage their concerns, donations of commiserate materials to the exchange is completely fine.

This doesn't require any arbitrary setting of prices, doesn't require an arbiter to deal with disputes arising, it keeps myself and others who agree with me in the economy.......... and all it requires is people to 1) post and 2) be willing to transport goods to the exchange.
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arteggio
There are some who call me… Timm?
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Within
 
2011-04-26, 15:59

@Robo: I glanced over the fact that there would be a slimeball pile-up at a Bradmart. Those could be left to Brad to deal with, if he wished to deal with it.

As for my proposal: what if he who wants dirt doesn't have diamonds, which he might not want to give up even if he had? Slimeballs would be the only thing we would have in common in such a case, making the trade possible and each player still 'compensated' for their effort to gather whatever resources, without really losing out.

@bbsky: With an economy, do you think that donations would do it any harm, as long as the requestor isn't extorting donations to put out on market for sale? I don't see donations negatively impacting the economy much. If you're interested in giving something away for free, that's fine too. The receiver just won't be expending any slimeballs, getting to keep more of their cash. Unless you were giving away something of extremely high value, which by definition should be difficult to obtain without currency thus not much incentive to give them away if they are obtained, it wouldn't offset things much.

I guess we could ramp up and organize the exchange though.....

Last edited by arteggio : 2011-04-26 at 17:31.
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Elysium
Environmental Bloodhound
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Land of ice and snow
Send a message via AIM to Elysium  
2011-04-26, 17:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybobsky View Post
As I said, I won't be participating in the currency economy, and it will likely affect my tendency of sharing resources, because I don't like the idea of influencing an economy I have no part in. I only say likely because I believe in helping out when I can.

I have a better idea:

Use the communal exchange for its intended purpose: drop off excessive materials.

Make a thread in this forum for material needs, with the caveat that added requests are made after checking the comm exchange.

For those who feel bad for asking for things and feeling that this doesn't help assuage their concerns, donations of commiserate materials to the exchange is completely fine.

This doesn't require any arbitrary setting of prices, doesn't require an arbiter to deal with disputes arising, it keeps myself and others who agree with me in the economy.......... and all it requires is people to 1) post and 2) be willing to transport goods to the exchange.
Seconded. I fall into the "I'd rather gather the resources for my project myself rather than accept handouts" category. Upon joining I refused Brad on his offer of ubiquitous coal and other starter items, rather to fulfill my desire to do it on my own.

I think the communal exchange is great when you're in a pinch. I had to use it to get some dirt and cobble to finish up the roof on the rink and get SodHaus covered in a timely manner. I plan on replacing everything I took at some point once I go back to mining and not building. Heck, I even felt bad asking Brad for 8 stacks of birch to redo the interior of SodHaus after the burning wolf incident.

I don't mind people asking the godly admins for rare items, especially needed nether items, to complete a project. I would just expect them to have some incentive to benefit the community at large by contributing other resources, helping on large projects, or working on public transit projects in exchange for those items.

Like Bobsky I'd be more inclined to hold onto my resources in an economy based "sharing" system.

Formerly known as cynical_rock
censeo tentatio victum
There is no snooze button on a cat.
  quote
Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2011-04-26, 18:51

Whichever way, I have practical concerns with slimeballs as currency:

1: Slimeballs will eventually have a use, in a future update. What do we do then?
2: What's to stop people from making a slime grinder in their mines and effectively printing more money? If the design was good,* they could "print" more than enough money to cause hyperinflation.

In a way, cocoa beans or even cookies would be a better currency. (Except, of course, for the inevitable update that adds cocoa bushes.)

The only sensible currency is diamonds, as their value is unchangable and universal. But they don't divide up small enough to do change...

The Zero Punctuation review really nailed it: the true appeal of Minecraft is not simply making stuff, it's making stuff and having put in the work to gather resources. With the exception of a couple of small infusions from the Turtles and Art, I found all of that damn clay for the library myself. It's called Minecraft. Mining is 50% of the game.

PS: Two hours of mining Southwest of 0,0 netted 3x64 lapis. (And loads of iron, gold, diamonds, coal etc) So it's not that hard. I can even probably replace all of the gold I needed for the Theatre's pros arch. I plan to use the excess gold to build booster rails when they become viable.

I always drop off my excess materials at the exchange when completing a project.


K: I have red dye, ink sacs and wool. I'll drop you off a present as I don't need all of it. And always dye the sheep before punching it! Makes the dye go much further. I share your frustration with non-renewable roses....


* = I have no doubt, for example, that Bobsky's would be insanely good.
  quote
arteggio
There are some who call me… Timm?
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Within
 
2011-04-26, 19:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
It's called Minecraft.
Touché.
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2011-04-26, 19:50

Since we're not coming to an agreement here, I'll just throw some slime into the PO boxes, and whoever wants to use them as currency can do so, and whoever doesn't want to can just chuck them out the nearest airlock. I won't make any discrimination based on who does or doesn't use the currency-based economy if or when I dole out some magic goods.

But count me out for running any sort of Bradmart. I have always been happy* to give out resources as needed or requested, but the moment I have to tabulate prices or evaluate one dark magic good's worth over a mined good's worth, I'm just going to stop.

Spoiler (click to toggle):
* Really. I have never and don't now expect nor want payment when I give out resources. They're free to me anyway; why would I expect something in return? The way I see it, I'm helping keep the world beautiful by reducing or offsetting the land-raping, strip-mining activities. I'd rather live in a beautiful game world than a "realistic" one.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
drewprops
Magnificent Basturd™
sagacious-d
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2011-04-26, 21:06



<ahem>




...
  quote
Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-04-26, 21:55

Whoa whoa whoa. Lets not half ass it. IMO that's worst of the three options. If 709 and I are really the only ones who want it, please don't spray the world with slimeballs because it would break my Casino

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
  quote
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-04-26, 22:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by arteggio View Post
As for my proposal: what if he who wants dirt doesn't have diamonds, which he might not want to give up even if he had? Slimeballs would be the only thing we would have in common in such a case, making the trade possible and each player still 'compensated' for their effort to gather whatever resources, without really losing out.
But that's assuming that you did have that in common, that he's participating in the slimeball economy. Bobsky isn't. I'm not planning to. The slimeball currency would only have value if everybody (or almost everybody) was using it and agreed slimeballs were worth something. And even then, all it would do in many cases is just add extra steps to trading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
Whoa whoa whoa. Lets not half ass it. IMO that's worst of the three options. If 709 and I are really the only ones who want it, please don't spray the world with slimeballs because it would break my Casino
The moral of the story is be careful what you wish for.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
  quote
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