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MC: Rail Transport
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billybobsky
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I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
 
2011-05-02, 13:50

I would like to claim responsibility for the tracks needed to go beneath the sky ranch... This includes the lines that may lead from the hub to the two traps. I have construction projects beneath the earth that need to be avoided....
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709
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-05-04, 09:28

I may hold off a little bit on some of the long stretches I've planned (BP to Flaming Mountain, FM to Chichen Itza, UFO). Apparently Nether will finally be enabled in SMP with 1.6, so instead of laying down hundreds and hundreds of tracks I think I'll wait until the Bridgeport Nether terminal is built (which is one of the first things we should do, imo) and save myself a lot of work and resources.

I'm still building tracks around my home base of course (to the treefarm, mine, etc.) but maybe we should talk about what the Nether could mean for our larger transport needs.

So it goes.
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drewprops
Magnificent Basturd™
sagacious-d
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2011-05-04, 09:52

I need to go read up on the Nether, but from what you're saying I assume that it's possible to build multiple portals into the Nether... sounds interesting.


...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
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709
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-05-04, 10:03

Yeah, an 8 block length in the "real" world is equal to a 1 block length in the Nether, so, for example, if the railway from Flaming Mountain to the UFO is 800 blocks in the Overworld it would only need to be 100 blocks in the Nether. Quite a difference.

The railways would have to be encased so that Ghasts don't blow out the tracks, but I think it'd be cool to have a cobble & glass "tube system."

So it goes.
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RowdyScot
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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2011-05-04, 10:08

We're talking Ghasts. It needs to be obsidian, otherwise it will be obliterated.
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billybobsky
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
 
2011-05-04, 10:09

Not so....


They don't fire through walls because they cannot see you. Even glass.

How much are people going to want to explore in the nether?
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709
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Join Date: May 2004
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2011-05-04, 10:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by RowdyScot View Post
We're talking Ghasts. It needs to be obsidian, otherwise it will be obliterated.
Ghasts can't destroy cobblestone, at least according to the wiki.
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RowdyScot
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2011-05-04, 10:22

The fireballs aren't as strong as TNT, but I'm pretty sure they destroy cobblestone. The wiki also claimed torches could be placed on glass, mind you.
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709
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Join Date: May 2004
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2011-05-04, 10:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybobsky View Post
How much are people going to want to explore in the nether?
I'll definitely want to gather resources and poke around some, but it's going to be a problem if people run around they do now in the Overworld and set up portals miles away from spawn. Some serious map bloat.

So it goes.
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709
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Join Date: May 2004
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2011-05-04, 10:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by RowdyScot View Post
The fireballs aren't as strong as TNT, but I'm pretty sure they destroy cobblestone. The wiki also claimed torches could be placed on glass, mind you.
The blast force of a Ghast fireball is 20.17. Cobble (and stone) have a resistance of 30.
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RowdyScot
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2011-05-04, 10:32

Hmm. Wonder if the force was lowered, then. Could have sworn it used to destroy cobble. Well, at least that would make it an easier setup.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tidewater Virginia
 
2011-05-04, 13:16

I could see a protected tunnel through nether working. I will also say that if it isn't protected that Mrs T won't likely ever go in there. If we can in fact make portal tubes than that is awesome though! Does it really work like that in SSP?

Also, notch didn't make it sound like it was going to happen any time soon.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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709
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-05-04, 14:29

Right, it probably won't be for a month or so, but for that kind of time/material savings I can wait. I've been using the shoe-leather express for this long, so another month isn't going to kill me.

Plus, it'll give me time to think about my 1/8 scale models of the temple and UFO as tube-stations!

So it goes.
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drewprops
Magnificent Basturd™
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Join Date: May 2004
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2011-05-04, 15:04

I can't decide who's the bigger scaredy-cat, Mrs T or ME.
If you want to see funny things happen bring me along on your adventures.
My only fee is that someone replace all my lost/tossed tools.
Remember, I was so wigged out in Satan's Pit that I threw a diamond pick off into the hole....

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
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Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-05-04, 15:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
I can't decide who's the bigger scaredy-cat, Mrs T or ME.
If you want to see funny things happen bring me along on your adventures.
My only fee is that someone replace all my lost/tossed tools.
Remember, I was so wigged out in Satan's Pit that I threw a diamond pick off into the hole....
I'm pretty much the biggest scaredy-cat ever. I don't know why Minecraft is so scary!

Majora's Mask? Bright and cheerful! Silent Hill? Just fine. Blocky zombies? OH SHIT FU—
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2011-05-04, 15:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
Does it really work like that in SSP?
You can't ride a cart into a portal and keep moving on the other side, unless something significant has changed recently. You'll have to stop and get out, enter the portal, waaaaaaiiiiit, and get back in a cart to resume the ride.

Switching between the overworld and nether has a load time in SSP roughly the same as opening a whole new world. I suspect the same will go for SMP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
Also, notch didn't make it sound like it was going to happen any time soon.
True. For anyone not following him, notch just blogged this on 2011-05-02:
Quote:
1.6 officially has a release date of “not soon”. The main features will be the maps, bug fixes, and now a functioning Nether in multiplayer.

Nether. In smp. Fun!

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tidewater Virginia
 
2011-05-04, 18:45

So when you go into the portal it can be in a "protected environment"? So like Mrs T wouldn't have to worry about being harmed as she's passing from place to place?

Also, can't ghasts travel through a portal too? As in, into the overworld? How do you keep this from happening?

In case you couldn't tell, I don't play in SSP at all.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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Kraetos
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-05-04, 18:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
So when you go into the portal it can be in a "protected environment"?
Any Nether fast-transit system would have to be completely enclosed. Ghasts do not fuck around.

Zombie pigmen aren't the most fun to hang out with, either...
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Brad
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2011-05-04, 18:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
So when you go into the portal it can be in a "protected environment"? So like Mrs T wouldn't have to worry about being harmed as she's passing from place to place?
When you first build a portal in the overworld and travel through it, a portal appears in the nether. That portal is usually out in the open and unprotected. Once built, though, you could encase the portal and a path in stone, and build another portal back to the overworld.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
Also, can't ghasts travel through a portal too? As in, into the overworld? How do you keep this from happening?
There was a bug early on that allowed ghasts to spawn near a portal in the overworld, but I'm pretty sure that was fixed.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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Kraetos
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-05-04, 19:35

Okay. I revised the map. This is basically the core of the railway system: the white line, and parts of the red and green lines. I think we should build this first and then we can extend the green line south (underground?), and add the blue/yellow lines later.



Assuming that everyone is okay with this layout, the next step is for everyone to take responsibility for segments. Ideally you should take responsibility for segments which are near your stuff. (For example, I can handle G2-W5.) That's when we can decide what segments should be above or underground, and what the stations should be named.

For where they are above ground we can build below the skyway. The entirety of the White Line should be above ground but there are sections of the Red Line which might work better underground. I don't know, I don't really spend much time out there.

Also, the above ground tracks should be lower than the existing skyway. 10-15 blocks lower. That will make it easier to make it go underground when necessary.

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
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RowdyScot
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2011-05-04, 19:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
Okay. I revised the map. This is basically the core of the railway system: the white line, and parts of the red and green lines. I think we should build this first and then we can extend the green line south (underground?), and add the blue/yellow lines later.



Assuming that everyone is okay with this layout, the next step is for everyone to take responsibility for segments. Ideally you should take responsibility for segments which are near your stuff. (For example, I can handle G2-W5.) That's when we can decide what segments should be above or underground, and what the stations should be named.

For where they are above ground we can build below the skyway. The entirety of the White Line should be above ground but there are sections of the Red Line which might work better underground. I don't know, I don't really spend much time out there.

Also, the above ground tracks should be lower than the existing skyway. 10-15 blocks lower. That will make it easier to make it go underground when necessary.
If we're planning to do a rail system, I'm okay with this layout and with the mostly above ground under skyway method.
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arteggio
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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2011-05-04, 19:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
This is basically the core of the railway system: the white line, and parts of the red and green lines. … Ideally you should take responsibility for segments which are near your stuff. … Also, the above ground tracks should be lower than the existing skyway.
I like your words. Though, the existence of the Nether does have a point to be made about:

Should we build a worldwide transit system above ground when the Nether will let us build the same system in 8 times less space? Sure, there can still be plenty of tracks in the overworld, but should they be primary lines, or merely auxiliary lines connecting to the Undeground?

I like the idea of an overworld system without using the underworld as a foundation for it, but there are definite material and time gains from utilizing it as 709 said. Unless, of course, Brad would like to donate a monstrous amount of rail (or its needed resources) to be used by those of us willing to participate in building this as a community.

Though, not only would time be saved in building over a smaller distance, but time travelling would be cut also...

Nonetheless I think vote to build overworld Red, White, and Green lines, with Yellow/Blue optional, like Kraetos proposed. (Crazy faraway projects could utilize the Nether exclusively, or you can utilize the Nether if you prefer its space-saving efficiency.) I think the tracks should have a view of our world, and not the endless deep, dark, fiery purple of Down There.
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RowdyScot
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2011-05-04, 20:20

We could utilize the time before 1.6 (of which there will be a good bit) to plan what we should do with the Nether and portals. The crucial part to doing anything with portals is to make sure we keep things aligned well. I would think turning off mobs would allow for structuring everything correctly. Don't know if the rest of you have tried it on SSP, but building in the Nether is rather terrible as an experience. Ghasts simply destroy everything you do, not to mention you, while you work. We could set something up there rather quickly in not much space, however, and perhaps have things connected there. I actually wouldn't mind doing something like Arteggio's highway idea in the Nether.

Authentic Nova Scotia bagpipe innards
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2011-05-04, 20:26

I really think that we shouldn't use the Nether as regular transport. Maybe for extreme long distances, it's worth the risk, but for local-ish transport we should use main-world minecarts. 1.6 may not drop for several months, so let's get a system we can use now. I'm happy to build W5-W4. W4-W3 is probably almost there anyway, as I laid track along that stretch many moons ago. Are we agreed on the V-shaped stop/go launcher as per my line across to the farm for intermediate stops?

I wonder if it's worth making a short "technology demo" track with a start, and end and an intermediate stop somewhere so people can copy designs from a central location?

I can also look at extending Green southwards, which may involve joining my existing line for a bit, maybe?
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Kraetos
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-05-04, 20:47

We should reserve nether travel for going out much further than this. Nether travel is really fast, but it's not really worth the hassle of going through a portal if you're not going that far.

We talked on the server and agreed it would be easiest to build off the sides of existing skyways. I'm building G2-W5 right now as a "tech demo."

Also, if an Brad or turtle could donate a few stacks of iron blocks for this project, it would be greatly appreciated

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope

Last edited by Kraetos : 2011-05-04 at 20:58.
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2011-05-04, 20:53

I meant for the tech demo track to be 15-20 blocks long, so all the stop designs were in one place.
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Kraetos
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2011-05-04, 20:59

There's more than one stop design? I was just using the 2 block hole with 2 boosters.
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SpecMode
Wait what
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NorCal
 
2011-05-04, 21:18

One general note to keep in mind about the Nether, come 1.6: it's essentially another world map being generated, meaning it'll be sharing storage space with the existing world data. How are we doing on RAMdisk space, Brad?
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tidewater Virginia
 
2011-05-04, 22:07

I'm not worried about server space at all. I'm more concerned about people loading one world to then have to load the next and the load that'll have on the server as a whole. Not a big deal the way things are now with warping and then disconnecting and reconnecting so not likely an issue, just something to consider as well.

I'm of the persuasion that we would build the tracks now and add Nether travel later if we so choose.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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Brad
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Join Date: May 2004
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2011-05-04, 22:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
I'm not worried about server space at all.
In this context, it's not free disk space we need to worry about but the free RAM. Remember that when we had the world on disk, the thrashing made the game lag horribly when a bunch of us were on in different areas. That's why we continue to operate on the RAM disk.

I would much prefer we remain conservative on the matter of world size. Once we grow, we can't easily go back unless people want to give up whatever projects they've worked on. The prospect of using the nether to wildly expand the world does not sit well with me.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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