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Raising Minimum Wage ... why?


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Raising Minimum Wage ... why?
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Fooboy
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2007-01-10, 21:45

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/....ap/index.html

So the Democratically controlled house just passed a $2.10 increase in the minimum wage over 26 months.

I don't understand why Democrats want to do this. You are not supposed to be able to support a family working at McDonalds. You learn a trade, you go to college. As you have skills and experience, you get paid more becuase you are more valuable. There is SO much opportunity to better yourself in the US - arguably more than anywhere in the world - its in our DNA ... MAKE YOURSELF!

The thing is, this is only going to hurt businesses, and make everything more expensive. When McDonalds has to pay all their workers an extra $2.10, you think everything on the menu is going to stay the same price? This effect is more profound in small businesses who don't have the pockets of Mickey D's. Small businesses will probably opt to work fewer people harder and let a couple people go.

WHERE IS THE COMMON SENSE THESE DAYS!?
 
Schnauzer
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2007-01-10, 21:47

agreed
 
Wyatt
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2007-01-10, 21:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooboy View Post
I don't understand why Democrats want to do this. You are not supposed to be able to support a family working at McDonalds. You learn a trade, you go to college. As you have skills and experience, you get paid more becuase you are more valuable.
A job is a job. You do whatever the hell you need to support your family. When you get laid off and your unemployment runs out, you take whatever you can get. Unemployment rates are high. People take shitty jobs because a shitty job is better than no job and no unemployment benefits. Who are you to say they don't deserve to be able to support their family?

College isn't for everyone, either. Not everybody is an academic. Somebody needs to collect the garbage. Somebody needs to have the crappy retail jobs that support our consumer economy. Unfortunately, shit happens and good people get stuck in bad jobs. It's not our job to police who deserves to be able to support their family and who doesn't.

I'm completely behind this legislation.

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Stone Of Love
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2007-01-10, 21:51

Risking banishment....

I'll open with, there aren't enough jobs that pay well enough for people to support a family on, so they are forced to work jobs such as McD's. Most of these people have to work more than one of these jobs.

I will then add, that your argument has been made time and time again since the advent of the "minimum" wage, and it has never come true yet.

I'll finish with, your thought process on this issue is short sighted to say the least.

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Windowsrookie
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2007-01-10, 21:52

You are an idiot. Not everyone can get good paying jobs. If everyone could make 900K a year everyone would be driving hummers and living in multi-million dollar houses.

Some people DO work at Mcdonald's and DO support a family by working there.

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Schnauzer
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2007-01-10, 21:53

Its not the government's place to be interfering with businesses
 
Wyatt
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2007-01-10, 21:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnauzer View Post
Its not the government's place to be interfering with businesses
Not everybody in a bad job is there because they don't deserve better. Some people just get screwed. That's the biggest problem with unemployment, IMO. It's largely random who gets the shaft and who gets a good job.

Government has to step in when people are being treated unfairly by employers. Before government stepped in, we had children working in factories getting their limbs chopped off. Before government stepped in, there was no minimum wage at all. People in shitty jobs would be paid almost nothing. Who's going to collect the garbage for $1.00 an hour?

Who's going to take care of the people crippled because of unsafe working conditions? The government has to do that, so why can't the government do something to improve those conditions?

Who's going to take care of the people that don't make enough money? The government does that, so why can't the government do something to raise incomes?

The government serves at the will of the people. The people are getting screwed. You can't live on $5.15 an hour. You can barely live on $7.25.

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Stone Of Love
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2007-01-10, 21:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnauzer View Post
Its not the government's place to be interfering with businesses
Your at least 50 years too late for that argument don't you think??!!
 
Fooboy
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2007-01-10, 21:59

This is how I see it.

Minimum wage jobs are fundamentally no skill jobs. So either you are a young worker (16 year old), you are older and have made no attempt to better yourself or learn anything, or the highly unlikely 3rd option, that you have NO OPPORTUNITIES your whole life to better yourself. This country is teeming with individuals who didn't give up and worked their way up without college degrees or rich daddies. So, I believe the 3rd option is very small.

Anyways, like I said, all this will do is cuase small businesses to fire a couple people to meet their bottom line, and make many things more expensive to buy ... thus increasing the cost of living for everyone - including the minimum wage earner.

...

Basically it boils down to this. Minimum wage is the baseline of the economy. Being frank, you are easily replaceable. You are a commidity. Raising this wage just raises everything. If you want to be successful in this country you need skills that seperate you from the pack in some way. This is going to backfire.
 
Stone Of Love
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2007-01-10, 22:01

I have to ask Fooboy, how old are you?

Your "unlikely" third option is a F'n reality today. Do you have blinders on?
 
murbot
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2007-01-10, 22:02

Fooboy, how old are you? I'm genuinely curious.

EDIT: heh, GMTA.
 
billybobsky
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2007-01-10, 22:02

It is mostly a symbolic move as most (?) states have much higher minimum wages than the federal one.

In addition, many people can only get minimum wage jobs to support families upon...

The medium income of all households is $46,326... That ain't much...
 
Windowsrookie
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2007-01-10, 22:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooboy View Post
This is how I see it.

Minimum wage jobs are fundamentally no skill jobs. So either you are a young worker (16 year old), you are older and have made no attempt to better yourself or learn anything, or the highly unlikely 3rd option, that you have NO OPPORTUNITIES your whole life to better yourself.
How can you say that? I work at a hockey rink and they pay some people minimum wage. I know a very nice ~40 year old women. She is white, went to college, drives, and has a husband and son. She was laid off from her "Real" job, and only worked at the rink for a few months. Several employees gave her hours, but I can imagine it was some tough times.

I'd like to see you get laid off and live off minimum wage fore a few months.

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Schnauzer
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2007-01-10, 22:04

Dont you guys understand, by raising the wages the businesses now have to fire people to meet the wage requirements, so that equals more unemployment

The companies don't pull money from a tree, they have to make it, and being forced to pay high wages and having the same money coming in from business = layoffs

If you can read this this, please send to an admin, i am blocked and cant post....
 
Wyatt
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2007-01-10, 22:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Of Love View Post
I have to ask Fooboy, how old are you?

Your "unlikely" third option is a F'n reality today. Do you have blinders on?
Bingo. Opportunities don't just create themselves. Fooboy, do you have any idea how much a decent education costs? Do you realize that the government won't pay for that for you? If you're already poor, already have poor credit, and don't have any obvious exceptional skills, you're screwed. You can get into a college, yes, but that doesn't mean you can pay for it. No money = no education. No education = no new job. No new job = scraping by on minimum wage while people claim you're not trying hard enough.

Schnauzer and Fooboy: Have either of you ever had jobs? Have you ever had bills to pay? Have you ever had to pay rent or support a family? If you can answer "no" to all those questions, you basically have no business talking about this because you have no idea what the hell's going on. You're both severely disconnected from the real world, and it's painfully obvious to the rest of us who are living in it.

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chucker
 
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2007-01-10, 22:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnauzer View Post
Dont you guys understand, by raising the wages the businesses now have to fire people to meet the wage requirements, so that equals more unemployment
http://forums.appleinsider.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17

You're welcome.
 
Stone Of Love
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2007-01-10, 22:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnauzer View Post
Dont you guys understand, by raising the wages the businesses now have to fire people to meet the wage requirements, so that equals more unemployment

The companies don't pull money from a tree, they have to make it, and being forced to pay high wages and having the same money coming in from business = layoffs
Please attempt to prove this point. This argument has been made before, and it just has not happened. I understand there are no "absolutes", but to say that this will "cause" more unemployment is utter nonsense.

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billybobsky
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2007-01-10, 22:08

Over the last 5 years real wages have not changed, while the CPI has increased significantly every year.
 
Schnauzer
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2007-01-10, 22:08

And i bet your argument has been made before as well
 
Stone Of Love
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2007-01-10, 22:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnauzer View Post
And i bet your argument has been made before as well
Your point sir??
 
Wyatt
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2007-01-10, 22:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnauzer View Post
And i bet your argument has been made before as well
Except there is evidence for his argument.

Prices rise whether wages do or not. When prices increase and wages are static, the overall standard of living goes down (assuming both measures are taken per-capita, and not as a national sum).

Unemployment is dependent on so many factors other than wages that wages do not influence unemployment as directly as you suggest. The largest determinant of unemployment is merely supply and demand. As living standards decrease, demand decreases or slows across the board for every single consumer good.

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Fooboy
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2007-01-10, 22:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnauzer View Post
Dont you guys understand, by raising the wages the businesses now have to fire people to meet the wage requirements, so that equals more unemployment

The companies don't pull money from a tree, they have to make it, and being forced to pay high wages and having the same money coming in from business = layoffs
Exactly.


I'm 24. I have an awesome Job and I have had a college education. My family was middle class. I was born in the USA. I consider myself very lucky I didn't have to start from nothing. However, I worked hard in school and I've had several jobs during high school and college - and now been working for 2 years.

Look, I am not saying wanting to fix poverty is not a noble cause, but just saying "EVERYBODY GETS MORE MONEY - WHOOPEE!!!" isn't going to fix it.

And yes, I think in America there is ample opportunity for people who go for it. Everything I was blessed with was on account of my dad busting his balls his whole life.
 
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2007-01-10, 22:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnauzer View Post
And i bet your argument has been made before as well
You've made an assertion. The burden of proof (which is impossible) is on your end.
 
billybobsky
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2007-01-10, 22:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnauzer View Post
Dont you guys understand, by raising the wages the businesses now have to fire people to meet the wage requirements, so that equals more unemployment

The companies don't pull money from a tree, they have to make it, and being forced to pay high wages and having the same money coming in from business = layoffs
Businesses have been effective at maximizing profits and minimizing work force. Signs this is happening: few new jobs being created, yet the economy keeps ticking along. Real wages stagnate.
 
Wyatt
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2007-01-10, 22:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooboy
And yes, I think in America there is ample opportunity for people who go for it. Everything I was blessed with was on account of my dad busting his balls his whole life.
That's not always enough. Plain and simple. That works for some people, while other people bust their balls their entire lives and still get screwed.
 
torifile
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2007-01-10, 22:18

If you work 40 hours a week, you should be able to support your family, pay for your health insurance and buy your school supplies. I don't care if that means my happy meal costs a $1 more. I can afford it.

I hate money grubbing. If some people can't afford to buy a flat screen t.v. because some things are more expensive, but more people can afford to go to the doctor, I'm all for it.

If it's not red and showing substantial musculature, you're wearing it wrong.
 
torifile
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2007-01-10, 22:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnauzer View Post
Its not the government's place to be interfering with businesses
Yes it is, if that means making sure that people are protected from being taken advantage of.
 
chucker
 
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2007-01-10, 22:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooboy View Post
And yes, I think in America there is ample opportunity for people who go for it.
Ah, but see, you think that because this has been your personal experience. Others may not be so lucky.
 
Wyatt
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2007-01-10, 22:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by torifile View Post
I hate money grubbing. If some people can't afford to buy a flat screen t.v. because some things are more expensive, but more people can afford to go to the doctor, I'm all for it.
Aside from the fact that you're actually a doctor and I'm not, I couldn't agree with you more. Personally, I can think of lots of times that I've been sick but haven't gone to the doctor because I have a copay on my insurance and my crappy job, in combination with my outrageous bills, doesn't allow me much spending money.

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Fooboy
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2007-01-10, 22:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by fcgriz View Post
That's not always enough. Plain and simple. That works for some people, while other people bust their balls their entire lives and still get screwed.
So lets create a system where no one, no matter how unskilled, can fail. And better yet, lets let the government, not the market, set the bar.

Who's going with me!

 
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