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Should Apple omit the internal optical drive in a possible sub-notebook?


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Should Apple omit the internal optical drive in a possible sub-notebook?
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Windowsrookie
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2007-08-03, 14:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy View Post
Which I still don't think will give you as much of a performance boost as you are all dreaming. Those optical drives may be large in length and width, but their pretty damn skinny. You're probably not going to eve get an additional cell on that battery.
Are you kidding me? Remove the optical drive and use all that space to add 3 or even more hours of battery. Optical drives are as thick as the battery in the MacBooks and MBPs.

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BuonRotto
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2007-08-03, 14:31

This thread is like asking is Microsoft should be using Ogg Vorbis for its iPod killer IMO.
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zippy
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2007-08-03, 14:31

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Originally Posted by Windowsrookie View Post
Are you kidding me? Remove the optical drive and use all that space to add 3 or even more hours of battery. Optical drives are as thick as the battery in the MacBooks and MBPs.
Then Apple needs to switch brands, because they don't need to be.

And if that's the case, if they use up all that space for battery, you'll have a nice compact notebook weighing a whopping 5 lbs.

No thanks.

Do you know where children get all of their energy? - They suck it right out of their parents!
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zippy
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2007-08-03, 14:32

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Originally Posted by BuonRotto View Post
This thread is like asking is Microsoft should be using Ogg Vorbis for its iPod killer IMO.
Agreed. I think I've said all I can so I think I'm done now.
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Windowsrookie
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2007-08-03, 14:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy View Post
Then Apple needs to switch brands, because they don't need to be
Yeah they do actually, do you know how thin the bottom portion of a MacBook is? It's got to be around .5" thick
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BuonRotto
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2007-08-03, 15:34

Well, this is getting into epistemology more than the thread intends, but to clarify my earlier post (which was a poor attempt at humor but sounds obnoxious on re-reading), but, to me, you have two basic size classes for portable computing: pocket size and notebook size. Anything in between is either too small for "full" use or too big for convenient use.

Thinner, lighter, power-sipping notebook (or touch tablet for that matter, but I have other misgivings about that)? You betcha! But the sub makes little sense to me because it's neither here nor there as a product. We've consistently seen attempts at this class of computer fail. Why? I've seen great hardware design here and great software design here for this class, but it doesn't matter because the initial assumption is wrong, and people have expressed frustration at exactly this lack of full-bore computer functionality or at a relatively cumbersome design compared to the pocket products. Has anything in this netherworld ever been successful? Is there just a few specific things that would change the history of this class of machine? I just don't see it, but I'd love some cogent thoughts to the contrary, anecdotal "I'd buy it!" rationales notwithstanding.
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kscherer
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2007-08-03, 15:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windowsrookie View Post
Optical drives are as thick as the battery in the MacBooks and MBPs.
Not quite. The battery is about 5/8" thick, the optical about 1/2". That leaves a difference of about 1/8", quite a bit in laptop world.
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Robo
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2007-08-03, 15:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuonRotto View Post
Well, this is getting into epistemology more than the thread intends, but to clarify my earlier post (which was a poor attempt at humor but sounds obnoxious on re-reading), but, to me, you have two basic size classes for portable computing: pocket size and notebook size. Anything in between is either too small for "full" use or too big for convenient use.
I don't think you can say there is just one single "notebook size," though.

The MacBook is just too big for me. For me, it's an around-the-house computer, not an around-the-town computer.

I'd love an ultraportable notebook to take with me for basic writing and web browsing. Just big enough to have a useable keyboard. I think a 9" widescreen would be just about perfect. But Apple would probably never make a 9" Mac.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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Ryan
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2007-08-03, 16:03

I think they should just make a 12" PowerBook replacement. Around the same size and weight, maybe with a different screen size in order to make it widescreen, and a higher resolution, of course. Add in another Firewire port and an ExpressCard/34 slot and I think they'd have a very popular machine on their hands.
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psmith2.0
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2007-08-03, 16:45

Exactly. Finally someone with some sense...



That 12" PowerBook was so popular to so many. That they never got around to replacing it is odd to me. Although I suppose one could argue that the MacBooks more than fill that space, and that they were more powerful and capable than the 12" PB ever was, and, by not having slots, illuminated keyboard, etc., they're not lacking anything the PB had (except for the graphics card).

But appearances do matter to some...some people - and I've known a few - don't want a white plastic laptop. And they'll pay an extra $200 or so for a silver one, the same size as the MacBook, with the word "Pro" in its name (and a few other extra features found only in the 15" and 17" Apple notebooks).



So if Apple could take the basic guts of the MacBook, shave the display bezel down a bit, plus add a dedicated GPU (and find a place for a card slot) and wrap it MacBook Pro silver (and include the illumated keyboard), they'd probably have a major hit on their hands in that $1,699 neighborhood, give or take.

The 12" PB always lagged behind the two larger ones in several areas (FW 800, card slot, illuminated keyboard, graphics, etc.). The day Apple comes out with a 13" widescreen replacement for the 12" PowerBook, includes 2-3 of those missing/lacking areas and somehow makes it thinner and smaller than the current white MacBook, they'll have a jellybean iMac-style hit on their hands, IMO.

So many would consider that "close enough" and be happy as a clam to own such a small, sleek (but full-featured) notebook from Apple. I'm pretty damn sure I'd be among them.



Sounds like Brad would, and a few others too. Heck, maybe even ol' Escher would be impressed enough to get one too?

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Ryan
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2007-08-03, 17:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
Exactly. Finally someone with some sense...



That 12" PowerBook was so popular to so many. That they never got around to replacing it is odd to me. Although I suppose one could argue that the MacBooks more than fill that space, and that they were more powerful and capable than the 12" PB ever was, and, by not having slots, illuminated keyboard, etc., they're not lacking anything the PB had (except for the graphics card).

-snip-
Yep. Admittedly, I don't know if they could fit an ExpressCard slot in the 12" PB shell. I've opened it up, and there's not a lot of space left in there. There isn't even much space left on the outside of the machine for a second Firewire port and an ExpressCard slot. This is part of why I say they should leave out the optical drive, to free up space for these parts. No, it's not a perfect solution, but, I think the usefulness of the optical drive has declined *significantly* recently, so it's acceptable, but only if that freed-up space if used for something. A larger batter, a card slot, etc.

But, it's a machine from 2003, so I expect that parts have become smaller by now. Maybe they could do it.

Also, how far has battery technology come in the past few years? Anyone know?
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Eugene
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2007-08-03, 17:06

Running the distributed.net client, a buddy's MacBook Pro left on overnight shattered his glass tabletop. Like I've been saying all along, the barrier to size reduction is not eliminating the optical drive.

Windowsrookie, the smaller screens and lower-power chips used in most subnotes already make up for physically smaller batteries. Also an enormous battery would contributed a lot of extra heft to the entire laptop.
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psmith2.0
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2007-08-03, 17:11

It shattered it from heat? Or vibration?

A little of both? Just got so hot that it weaked the glass table?

Cool!

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BuonRotto
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2007-08-03, 17:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboman View Post
I don't think you can say there is just one single "notebook size," though.

The MacBook is just too big for me. For me, it's an around-the-house computer, not an around-the-town computer.

I'd love an ultraportable notebook to take with me for basic writing and web browsing. Just big enough to have a useable keyboard. I think a 9" widescreen would be just about perfect. But Apple would probably never make a 9" Mac.
True, but I'm talking of being in the A3/letter size paper range. You know, a notebook. Give or take. Besides, we have to get more specific about size. I'm talking about the width and length, not thickness. I would say that once you go from a 4" screen that fits in your pocket, you basically jump to a minimum 10" screen that fits in your man-purse, bookbag, under your arm, etc. I'm mainly talking about getting the thing to be thin actually. I think that's the real difference between a sub-notebook and a full notebook. But if you can get a full 10" or 12" notebook that's very thin, why ask for a half-assed notebook? The MacBook is already much thinner than the PowerBook Duo and even the Newton ever were. I don't think Apple needs to make the sacrifices people are imagining!
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Eugene
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2007-08-03, 17:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
It shattered it from heat? Or vibration?
From the heat, yep.
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Windowsrookie
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2007-08-03, 18:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
From the heat, yep.
Yes it "shattered" from the "heat" produced by the "MacBook"
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thegeriatric
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2007-08-03, 18:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
With.
Seconded.
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Eugene
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2007-08-03, 19:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windowsrookie View Post
Yes it "shattered" from the "heat" produced by the "MacBook"
Yeah I'm totally making this up. Glass doesn't conduct heat very well, and you're putting a rather focused heat source on a thin pane = *craaaack*
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joveblue
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2007-08-04, 02:16

I think it's all about making this thing so that you barely even notice you're carrying it. Basically as small as you can get while still having a full-sized keyboards. Get rid of the optical, switch to flash hard-drive, this thing could be really, really small (enough to qualify for the "Nano" title). As long as they don't compromise on the battery, it will be a hit. The subnotebook market I think has mostly been held back by technology so far. Batteries have been bigger and heavier than they are now, built-in optical drives have been necessary, flash hasn't had the capacity (or price), etc etc.

External optical drive all the way.

My money is on pscates' #2. #3 is the nichest of niches.
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Mugge
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2007-08-04, 04:13

Besides, the internal optical drives that Apple uses in it's notebooks are woefully slow at burning media anyway.
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zippy
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2007-08-04, 14:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by joveblue View Post
I think it's all about making this thing so that you barely even notice you're carrying it. Basically as small as you can get while still having a full-sized keyboards. Get rid of the optical, switch to flash hard-drive, this thing could be really, really small (enough to qualify for the "Nano" title). As long as they don't compromise on the battery, it will be a hit. The subnotebook market I think has mostly been held back by technology so far. Batteries have been bigger and heavier than they are now, built-in optical drives have been necessary, flash hasn't had the capacity (or price), etc etc.

External optical drive all the way.

My money is on pscates' #2. #3 is the nichest of niches.

This was posted on another thread:

Sony VAIO X505

It's exactly what you mention and it was available in 2004 for $3000. Sony no longer makes them AFAIKT, at least not for the US Market.

Probably not a big seller for many reasons, price being one, and lack of optical drive being another IMO.

Unless something replaces DVD, I really don't think you'll see Apple release computers without them. They'll switch to Blu-Ray first.

Do you know where children get all of their energy? - They suck it right out of their parents!
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Mugge
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2007-08-04, 15:07

There's still Lenovo, Dell and HP doing 12"-ish notebooks with no internal optical drive.
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Windowsrookie
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2007-08-04, 15:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugge View Post
There's still Lenovo, Dell and HP doing 12"-ish notebooks with no internal optical drive.
And

http://oqo.com

http://tabletkiosk.com/

http://motioncomputing.com
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Mugge
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2007-08-04, 15:26

Incidentally. One of my colleagues have a 12" Dell with a removable optical drive. The idéa is that you can replace it with a battery or a floppy drive, or get this:

A hollow plastic filling, so the thing can be made more light for travel.



Don't come and say Dell isn't concerned about the weight of their note-books!

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Windowsrookie
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2007-08-04, 15:32

Actually, the older PowerBooks had removable drives.
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Eugene
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2007-08-04, 15:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugge View Post
There's still Lenovo, Dell and HP doing 12"-ish notebooks with no internal optical drive.
Which models? I just went to all three's websites and found exactly 1 model, the ThinkPad X. You think Apple should follow Lenovo's lead into this lucrative market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windowsrookie View Post
Do you want a subnote or a tablet/UMPC? These three links suggest you want the latter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugge View Post
Incidentally. One of my colleagues have a 12" Dell with a removable optical drive. The idéa is that you can replace it with a battery or a floppy drive, or get this:

A hollow plastic filling, so the thing can be made more light for travel.



Don't come and say Dell isn't concerned about the weight of their note-books!

Apple did exactly this with Wallstreet, Lombard and Pismo.

This also doesn't support your argument. Any device that is capable of supporting 2 batteries or a modular optical drive will be bigger than one that has it built-in.
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Windowsrookie
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2007-08-04, 15:47

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
Do you want a subnote or a tablet/UMPC? These three links suggest you want the latter.
Both.
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Mugge
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2007-08-04, 15:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
Which models? I just went to all three's websites and found exactly 1 model, the ThinkPad X. You think Apple should follow Lenovo's lead into this lucrative market?

(...)
Here's the HP Ultralight Notebooks, unfortunately Dell's website refuses load.

Quote:
Apple did exactly this with Wallstreet, Lombard and Pismo.

This also doesn't support your argument. Any device that is capable of supporting 2 batteries or a modular optical drive will be bigger than one that has it built-in.
Stuff a piece of hollow platic in the package with them? If they did so, I will extend my to them as well.

I was merely sharing a weird design decisison that I though was amusing. It had nothing to do with my argumentation.
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Eugene
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2007-08-04, 16:07

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Originally Posted by Mugge View Post
Stuff a piece of hollow platic in the package with them? If they did so, I will extend my to them as well.

I was merely sharing a weird design decisison that I though was amusing. It had nothing to do with my argumentation.
That's exactly what Apple did.



If you build a laptop with a modular drive/battery bay, it makes sense to offer something to plug it up if you need neither.
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Windowsrookie
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2007-08-04, 16:11

Yep, several Laptop Manufacturers do this, it's an easy way to double your battery life, and even an easy way to replace a broken CD drive.
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