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Should Apple omit the internal optical drive in a possible sub-notebook?


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View Poll Results: Would you prefer an internal or external optical drive?
Internal 39 38.24%
External 45 44.12%
Beer 18 17.65%
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Should Apple omit the internal optical drive in a possible sub-notebook?
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Mugge
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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2007-08-04, 16:13

"Weight saving device!" That's exactly what the Dell said.



@ Apple & Dell

Well, I guess it's a cheap option to add, but I wouldn't go so far as calling a hollow plastic box a "device"
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rampancy
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Fredericton, New Brunswick
 
2007-08-04, 16:24

Does anyone remember those odd-ball Apple patents which had the optical drive at the bottom of the computer? Maybe that would be a reasonable compromise.

By not worrying about putting the optical drive in it's usual position, perhaps internal engineering of the rest of the computer might be easier.

"The things that will destroy us are: politics without principle; pleasure without conscience; wealth without work; knowledge without character business without morality; science without humanity; and worship without sacrifice."
- Mahatma Gandhi
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zippy
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2007-08-04, 17:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugge View Post
Here's the HP Ultralight Notebooks, unfortunately Dell's website refuses load.



Stuff a piece of hollow platic in the package with them? If they did so, I will extend my to them as well.

I was merely sharing a weird design decisison that I though was amusing. It had nothing to do with my argumentation.
Just a quick glance at the HP page tells me this:

Most of those come with optical drives, so they're not really much different than the Sonys: about the same processor speeds, about the same weight, if not a pound or two more on some.

I did see one that was swappable with an additional battery, and this might be the best solution. The only one I saw that did not have an optical drive, was a full 1 lb heavier than the Sonys. That's a 33% bump. It was also a tablet, so that may be part of it.

What I didn't see, were actual battery life estimates, other than "really long battery life". In my experience, words like that instead of actual numbers=sucky. Of course, I am in a hurry to get out the door, so I may have just missed the numbers.

Do you know where children get all of their energy? - They suck it right out of their parents!
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Mugge
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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2007-08-04, 17:34

The two configurable models have optical drives, but not the others. Your guess on battery life is as good as mine, and it's hard to compare size and weight because of the differences in specs and because we don't know at which configuration the configurable ones where weighed. One of my class mates had a Pentium M HP w/o optical drive, and what I can say about it was that it was both slim, quiet, cool and light. So I hazard a guess and say that also count's for these newer models.
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Eugene
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2007-08-04, 17:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugge View Post
The two configurable models have optical drives, but not the others. Your guess on battery life is as good as mine, and it's hard to compare size and weight because of the differences in specs and because we don't know at which configuration the configurable ones where weighed. One of my class mates had a Pentium M HP w/o optical drive, and what I can say about it was that it was both slim, quiet, cool and light. So I hazard a guess and say that also count's for these newer models.
Again, look closer.

1) Only the tc4400 and 2710p tablets don't have an standard or optional optical drive.

2) The tc4400 is 4.6 pounds, hardly a sub-notebook even though it doesn't have a optical drive.

3) The lightest model is the 2510p, and guess what? It has an optional internal optical drive.

So...I maintain that the optical drive is not at all the barrier to entry in the subnotebook market.
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Mugge
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2007-08-04, 18:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
(...)

3) The lightest model is the 2510p, and guess what? It has an optional internal optical drive.

(...)
I strongly suspect that that weight is w/o the drive installed. Besides there is no data on battey weight, heatsinks or other materials that might influence the weight.

I you can't take it for anything else, then at least note that a HP has found it worthwhile to offer such machines to their customers.
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zippy
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2007-08-04, 18:56

I'd bet all the money in my wallet that the weights quoted are the lowest possible weight. In fact, I believe they all said 'starting at x.x lbs'. The lower weight it going to be with the optical drive, or with nothing.

That means that Sony still has them beat with their TX and TZ series which are 2.8 and 2.7 lbs complete.

I guess for my money, if battery were that important, I'd rather get an extra battery to lug around than to sacrifice on actual features (optical drive).

Do you know where children get all of their energy? - They suck it right out of their parents!
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Eugene
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2007-08-04, 19:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugge View Post
I you can't take it for anything else, then at least note that a HP has found it worthwhile to offer such machines to their customers.
I dunno, both devices that completely omit the optical drive are tablets. They are niche devices by default. How often do you see tablets out and about. Every time I go out to a trendy area with outdoor seating, I see people using normal laptops instead of subnotes, and definitely not tablets.
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Mugge
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2007-08-04, 19:54

I dunno.

They might be able to transform into a tablet, but they also seems to look pretty much like note-books to me. Guess that just makes it an extra feature then. How can that be a bad thing?

But enough of this coming back at your points. Now it's my serve:

How is watching movies, gaming and doing multimedia stuff on a sub-notebook's tiny screen ever going to be it's main selling points? I think you would want at least a MacBook for such purposes. So with those optical drive heavy tasks out of the equation, don't you think you could live with an external drive? As I read your posts, you guys sound suspiciously much like MacBook types.

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Eugene
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2007-08-04, 20:27

Optical drives aren't all about media rich content.

That's one nice thing about having a DVD or even a HD-DVD/Blu-ray drive, but it's more about having the lowest common denominator for data transfer available to you. Even if you don't have media handy, you can go buy blank discs anywhere. Say you're meeting a half dozen clients for lunch and showing them a slide presentation or some other kind of business proposal. What's the easiest way to dispense this 50 MB project to everyone? Not everyone has brought their computers, and not everyone has USB keychains with them. Even if they did, wouldn't it be a colossal waste of time to have to distributed the file one-by-one via wireless network or USB keychain?

Without an optical drive, I'd need to already have the correct # of discs handy.

Or the other way around. Some guy wants to show me something of his, and he brings the file on a CD because he thinks that's something everyone has handy.
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joveblue
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2007-08-05, 02:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
What's the easiest way to dispense this 50 MB project to everyone?
On the off-chance that you forgot to do this while you were at your home/office where your desktop computer or external optical drive are, you could just email it or post it on the net somewhere. If you don't happen to have an internet connection there, I'm sure they won't mind waiting an hour till to get back to somewhere that does.
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Eugene
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2007-08-05, 03:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by joveblue View Post
On the off-chance that you forgot to do this while you were at your home/office where your desktop computer or external optical drive are, you could just email it or post it on the net somewhere. If you don't happen to have an internet connection there, I'm sure they won't mind waiting an hour till to get back to somewhere that does.
And what if you're all traveling and don't necessarily have a fast or any internet connection at all?

It doesn't even matter. As mugge's own links prove, subnotebooks don't really get any smaller when you omit the optical drive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy View Post
I'd bet all the money in my wallet that the weights quoted are the lowest possible weight. In fact, I believe they all said 'starting at x.x lbs'. The lower weight it going to be with the optical drive, or with nothing.

That means that Sony still has them beat with their TX and TZ series which are 2.8 and 2.7 lbs complete.
I checked the configurations. The 2510p is 2.8 pounds including optical drive, which makes sense. Both the Sonys and HP-Compaqs are probably as small as you can make them.

Anyway, the weight of a bare slim optical drive is a mere 6 ounces or thereabout:
http://www.amazon.com/Optiplex-Sliml.../dp/B000Q7RZ2S
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joveblue
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2007-08-05, 04:22

If you're travelling, you take your external with you.

I find it very difficult to believe that removing an external drive wouldn't save any space for (a) making it thinner and (slightly) lighter or (b) dramatically increasing battery life. If it hasn't been done yet, no one's trying hard enough. Apple can.
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Mugge
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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2007-08-05, 04:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
Optical drives aren't all about media rich content.

That's one nice thing about having a DVD or even a HD-DVD/Blu-ray drive, but it's more about having the lowest common denominator for data transfer available to you. Even if you don't have media handy, you can go buy blank discs anywhere. Say you're meeting a half dozen clients for lunch and showing them a slide presentation or some other kind of business proposal. What's the easiest way to dispense this 50 MB project to everyone? Not everyone has brought their computers, and not everyone has USB keychains with them. Even if they did, wouldn't it be a colossal waste of time to have to distributed the file one-by-one via wireless network or USB keychain?

Without an optical drive, I'd need to already have the correct # of discs handy.

Or the other way around. Some guy wants to show me something of his, and he brings the file on a CD because he thinks that's something everyone has handy.
So you are going to burn a dozen CD's on the go? Then don't forget to bring some patience for the slow internal burner. I can tell you this, When you are on a business trip your chedule is often too tight to go shopping for CD's and sit in your hotel room and burn a pile of CD's. And as joveblue correctly pointed out; in this day and age you should ideally just be able to give them a link to the presentation on your website. Thats a scrap of paper - much smaller carbon footprint. Or even better, simply email the link to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
And what if you're all traveling and don't necessarily have a fast or any internet connection at all?

It doesn't even matter. As mugge's own links prove, subnotebooks don't really get any smaller when you omit the optical drive.


I checked the configurations. The 2510p is 2.8 pounds including optical drive, which makes sense. Both the Sonys and HP-Compaqs are probably as small as you can make them.

Anyway, the weight of a bare slim optical drive is a mere 6 ounces or thereabout:
http://www.amazon.com/Optiplex-Sliml.../dp/B000Q7RZ2S
The nc4400 is only 1.8 kg. It doesn't have an internal optical drive, but it's pitched as a performance model with more ports and supporting 4 GB of RAM, so obviously it does have something else to offer in exchange for the internal drive. Oh, and it's not a tablet.

Besides, an optical drive might be lighter than a larger battery but they can be made to take up the same space. In this class of computers I don't think weight is as important as the physicla size. It's never going to be too heavy anyway. Unless you make it out of lead.

I guess my link is not proving what you want it to, eh?

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Eugene
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2007-08-05, 04:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by joveblue View Post
If you're travelling, you take your external with you.

I find it very difficult to believe that removing an external drive wouldn't save any space for (a) making it thinner and (slightly) lighter or (b) dramatically increasing battery life. If it hasn't been done yet, no one's trying hard enough. Apple can.
The thickness of the base for these machines is pretty tied to the height of the PCB + CPU + heatspreader/heatsinks + outer shell and keyboard travel. In general your basic slim DVD drive is less than half an inch thick. The width is of course tied to screen size. Maybe you think Apple can build a laptop with a base less than half and inch thick that won't leave scorch marks on your thighs. I think that's a long way off unless you want to use anemic UMPC oriented CPUs.

And screw bigger batteries. A battery should have just enough capacity to satisfy me on average, otherwise it's a wasted expense when the first one fizzles out and I have to buy a new one.
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Eugene
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2007-08-05, 05:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugge View Post
The nc4400 is only 1.8 kg. It doesn't have an internal optical drive, but it's pitched as a performance model with more ports and supporting 4 GB of RAM, so obviously it does have something else to offer in exchange for the internal drive. Oh, and it's not a tablet.

Besides, an optical drive might be lighter than a larger battery but they can be made to take up the same space. In this class of computers I don't think weight is as important as the physicla size. It's never going to be too heavy anyway. Unless you make it out of lead.

I guess my link is not proving what you want it to, eh?



Read my post above.

Also 1.8kg = 3.96 pounds = over a pound heavier than the 2510p. Yay math!

2510p dimensions: 11.11 x 8.38 x 0.97 in (282.30 x 212.80 x 24.70 mm)
nc4400 dimensions: 11.22 x 9.25 x 1.19 in (285.0 x 235.0 x 30.2 mm)

What are you trying to prove? The 2510p is the smallest and lightest of the bunch.
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joveblue
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2007-08-05, 05:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
A battery should have just enough capacity to satisfy me on average


What if you use it for 2 minutes longer than your "average"?

An ultraportable should be able to be carted around all day and used when needed without worrying about plugging it in. That's why it's an ultraportable. Perhaps you're looking for a Macbook. They have built-in optical drives and everything
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Mugge
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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2007-08-05, 05:39

Ok, I'll be blunt: The 2510p is a sissy computer!

It's a Core Solo/Duo - the nc4400 is a Core (2) Duo
It supports up to 2 GB RAM - the nc 4400 supports up to 4 GB
Etc.

And I'll repeat myself: Weight and dimensions on these two computers might differ, but they are both so small that I personally wouldn't notice. And batteries and heat-sinks does weigh more than optical drives.
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Eugene
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2007-08-05, 07:19

Nope, the 2510p uses a Core 2 Duo ULV and that further supports my point. You can't build a laptop that small with today's technology without sacrificing on the heat producing components. So given the dimensions dictated by the screen and thermodynamics, there is plenty of room for an optical drive and sufficient battery.

I'm repeating myself now, so whatever. You win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joveblue View Post


What if you use it for 2 minutes longer than your "average"?

An ultraportable should be able to be carted around all day and used when needed without worrying about plugging it in. That's why it's an ultraportable. Perhaps you're looking for a Macbook. They have built-in optical drives and everything
And the 2510p comes with the same capacity 55Wh battery as the nc4400, with an option for a 83Wh battery. And then?

Nevermind, you win too. I'm changing my vote. Let's remove the drive...because we can!

Last edited by Eugene : 2007-08-05 at 07:45.
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Mugge
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2007-08-05, 14:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
(...)

Nevermind, you win too. I'm changing my vote. Let's remove the drive...because we can!
A bay that would allow the user to change between an optical drive or an extra battery would be a fair compromise satisfying both sides in this debate, but I'm unsure whether it could be done in a note-book much smaller than the current MacBook without sacrificing some design beauty and compactness.
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Paranoid666au
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2007-08-05, 18:52

You forgetting what Mac is "It just works" not "It just works but please attach the optical drive first"

If you want something smaller than a MacBook maybe you want an iPhone. And I'm sure if Apple can make the MacBook Pro smaller than it is with the same stuff in it they will. Maybe they'll announce a thinner MacBook Pro on Tuesday.

iPhone - finger licking good.
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Ryan
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2007-08-05, 19:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid666au View Post
If you want something smaller than a MacBook maybe you want an iPhone. And I'm sure if Apple can make the MacBook Pro smaller than it is with the same stuff in it they will. Maybe they'll announce a thinner MacBook Pro on Tuesday.
I don't think anyone is asking for a thinner MacBook Pro. What I think most of us want is a reincarnation of the 12" PowerBook. Which, by the way, was *not* "thin" by most notebook standards.
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Paranoid666au
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2007-08-06, 04:56

Ah yes the good old 12" PowerBook, I had one of those. Well a MacBook Pro 13" (widescreen) and just a bit thinner and lighter, might be just the ticked, don't you reckon?

iPhone - finger licking good.
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Mugge
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2007-08-06, 05:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid666au View Post
You forgetting what Mac is "It just works" not "It just works but please attach the optical drive first"

(...).
Plugging in an external optical drive is something even my techno-illiterate dad can do with ease.

A sub-notebook out in the wild with no more battery charge is more like: "It just doesn't work at all." The whole idea of a sub-notebook is mobility, and you won't get much of that if you are tied to be within 3 hours of an AC outlet.

Battery-life is just more important with sub-notebooks.
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Eugene
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2007-08-06, 05:51

What weighs more, a pound of 55Wh batteries or a pound of different 55Wh batteries?
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Mugge
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2007-08-06, 07:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
What weighs more, a pound of 55Wh batteries or a pound of different 55Wh batteries?
I'd call it making good use of a pound.

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chris e boy
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2007-08-06, 07:17

I was going to vote for an internal drive then I asked myself when was the last time I used the CD drive on my Powerbook. It was an awfully long time ago. I'm pretty sure I could cope without a CD drive at all. These days we have Pen Drives and fast networks which can replace the CD drive.

All my dvd movies get ripped straight to h264 anyway so that isnt an issue. The only thing a cd drive would be useful for is installing Mac OS, but this could be overcome by having a hidden partition with the installation files on.

One more thing, USB cd/dvd drives are so cheap these days that Apple could offer them as a BTO option.
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Eugene
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2007-08-06, 13:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugge View Post
I'd call it making good use of a pound.
How much power does a non-existent optical drive use?
How much power does an idle optical drive use?
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BuonRotto
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2007-08-06, 14:38

Oh, Christ, I just voted on this, and I'm the one who is running around saying it's irrelevant. Well, i'll shut up then!
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Mugge
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2007-08-06, 15:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
How much power does a non-existent optical drive use?
How much power does an idle optical drive use?
It's not what the optical drive is using. It's what the whole computer is using.
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