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danielsza
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2007-01-22, 12:44

I'm want to get an DSLR & a SRL Camera, preferably one that can share the lenses between the cameras...

I found Canon D-Rebel XTi with a 2 lens kit, EF-S 18-55 (which seems be to included in every kit) and a EF 75-300 III USM lens. For $1299.99 CND, but they only have 3 left...

And A Canon ELAN 7N with a EF 28-90 lens for $549.99 CND it's on sale right now for $59.99CND off

also I found a camera bag, Canon DLX Gadget bag, hold 2 35mm bodies and 5-8 lenses for $59.99CND

And I was thinking I should get a 2GB CF Card, which I can get for $39.99CND

So in total with shipping and taxes would be about $2258.00CND

*I know that the EF-S Lens will not work in the ELAN

So what do you think?

Also I found a Nikon CoolScan LS-2000 Neg Scanner, that I'm should pick up later on this week for $200.00
Anyway I need to get a VHDCI-68 to HD50 SCSI cable. Anyone know where I can get one? Cheap or used? It seems so hard to find SCSI cables these days...
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Matsu
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2007-01-22, 15:41

Why bother with the film body at all? Needless duplication with the 28-90 kit and the 18-55 EFS anyway -- they both cover roughly identical fields of view when mounted on their native camera platofrm.

You don't indicate that you will be buying the sorts of lenses that could bring out the potential extra resolution of the larger film frame. The 700 you'be be spending on a film scanner and SLR plus lens will be better spent on a good DSLR lens, or better DLSR body.

The only advantage in the film camera you're looking at might be in the viewfinder, but some APSC class DSLRs have good viewfinders too.

Nikon D80 and D200, Pentax K10D... Consensus around the net seems to be that the viefinders in the Digital Rebel series cams aren't all that great, but I don't know if the 20 and 30D are better. Might be good deal to be had on those models...

.........................................
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Dorian Gray
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2007-01-22, 15:48

The lenses are all okay* but not great. I'd get Canon's 50mm f/1.8 lens too (here's why).

The XTi (400D in Europe) is a pretty crap camera with a pretty good sensor. The Nikon D40 and D50 are marginally less crap cameras with marginally worse sensors. The Pentax K110D looks to be the best deal to me (K100D if you want image stabilisation), but there's not much difference between any of these. Except the Canon is noticeably more expensive than the others and offers a dust removal feature.

The ELAN 7/7E (33/30 in Europe) is a much better camera, designed and built for a much more discerning photographer, and consequently offering a very different feel. But you'll probably not use it much if you have a digital, so it might be worth looking for a cheap one on the second-hand market. If you don't have a specific reason for shooting film you might want to skip that purchase until you get used to the digital. The technical skills for shooting with an SLR is largely the same whether film or digital.

The LS-2000 scanner was one of the best home scanners available - a decade ago. Nowadays it's pretty humdrum, even if it works to original specs (highly doubtful as the light sources age, software and hardware can be old and buggy on today's computers). It has too low a Dmax and resolution to do justice to good film, and you might have trouble running it on OS X (?). You seem to know a lot about computer hardware so I'll leave this up to you, but I'm not totally sure it's even worth $200. No, I'm being harsh, it's worth $200. But check it really works, although it sounds like you've committed to this already.

* Okay because beginners often think that. Personally I wouldn't use any of them if I had the option, but I'm a bit of a lens snob who dislikes zooms. Especially really slow zooms (high minimum f/number). And especially really slow, low-cost zooms. These lenses are so bad their compromises are compromised. The kit lenses that come with these new high-megapixel DSLRs are really woefully inadequate. Read what Scott Eaton has to say about them in this thread (er, excuse his little rant about Apple).

… engrossed in such factional acts as dreaming different dreams.
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danielsza
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2007-01-22, 15:52

Well the film scanner I need to buy no matter what... I have lots of negs that I need to scan...

As for why I want the film body... It's more for fun then anything else... I want to build a darkroom... I always liked B&W...

Later on I will buy some more lenses... but not right now...
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Dorian Gray
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2007-01-22, 16:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielsza
It's more for fun then anything else
I can understand that. I personally prefer both shooting with film and the results, in colour or black and white. In that case, go for it. But the lenses are really bad. I'm not talking about some esoteric or subtle difference here. The kit lens and those other zooms will be exposed as the fraudsters they are by the high resolution Canon sensor (or film). With 10 MP you can't lie. You'll be SHOCKED the first time you see an image from your XTi with a decent lens (though you'll probably have to mount a Zeiss with an adaptor to get a decent lens ).

… engrossed in such factional acts as dreaming different dreams.
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danielsza
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2007-01-22, 16:32

I heard the the lenses in the kits are bad, but I've never used them... And it's been a few years since I've shot anything using a SLR... I learned using a MF Pentax...

Ok... well I'll ask this...

If I would buy the Canon D-Rebel XTi Body ($949.99CND) and either the Canon ELAN 7N body ($449.99CND) or the Canon ELAN 7NE body (499.99CND)

total would be $1399.98 or $1449.98

so the difference would be $450CND or $400CND

So for around that price... give or take... what EF lens would you recommend.. . that would work for both the dslr & slr?
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danielsza
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2007-01-22, 17:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian Gray View Post

The XTi (400D in Europe) is a pretty crap camera with a pretty good sensor. The Nikon D40 and D50 are marginally less crap cameras with marginally worse sensors. The Pentax K110D looks to be the best deal to me (K100D if you want image stabilisation), but there's not much difference between any of these. Except the Canon is noticeably more expensive than the others and offers a dust removal feature.

The LS-2000 scanner was one of the best home scanners available - a decade ago. Nowadays it's pretty humdrum, even if it works to original specs (highly doubtful as the light sources age, software and hardware can be old and buggy on today's computers). It has too low a Dmax and resolution to do justice to good film, and you might have trouble running it on OS X (?). You seem to know a lot about computer hardware so I'll leave this up to you, but I'm not totally sure it's even worth $200. No, I'm being harsh, it's worth $200. But check it really works, although it sounds like you've committed to this already.
The Pentax K10 D DSLR ? I think it's the same camera that your talking about... anyway it's $1099.99CND so it's $150 more then the Canon...

As for the LS-2000... I used a CoolScan III when I was at school... If I remember correctly, the LS-2000 is slightly better then the CoolScan III... Plus I already have a SCSI card in my G4... I know that the newer scanners are much better... but they are also more costly... It will work with OS X...

I need it mostly to scan about 20-30 years of pictures... that mostly my dad took using P&S camera's... For two main uses...one to have a back up... and two to put them on the LCD picture frames that I made last year...
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danielsza
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2007-01-22, 17:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian Gray View Post
The lenses are all okay* but not great. I'd get Canon's 50mm f/1.8 lens too (here's why).
Ok I found the lens that you were talking about, the Canon EF 50mm/1.8 AF II ($119.99CND). The link you gave also talked about a Canon EF 50mm/1.4 AF USM ($499.99).
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Ryan
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2007-01-22, 18:31

I'd recommend, based only on reviews of Canon lenses, the 50mm f/1.8, 24mm f/2.8 and the 100mm f/2. I have the 50mm f/1.4 and it walks all over my two cheap zooms (no surprise). It's sharp, colors are great, the autofocus is fast.

Those three would come out to more than the two kit lenses, however. About $700US. You could just get the 50mm and pick one of the others, which would be about $400US. My plan is to eventually get both those other lenses (I'm hoping I can get the 24mm before my trip to Yellowstone this summer).

Note that the current (Mark II) 50mm f/1.8 does not have a distance scale. The Mark I does, and they go for about the same price if you can find a Mark I used.
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danielsza
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2007-01-22, 19:24

The other two seem to be much more expensive here... the ef 244mm/2.8 is $499.99CND and the ef 100mm/2.0 is $749.99CND

All 3 lenses works out to be $1369.99 plus tax...

So I'm think I should go for the EF 50mm/1.8 so that would leave maybe another $300 or so... Is there another lens out there that would good for around the price?

Also since I don't think I should go for the kit should I get a Canon ELAN 7NE or the Canon ELAN 7N $50 difference in price?
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Ryan
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2007-01-22, 19:37

You might be able to get the 35mm f/2 for that price (do you have a link to Canon lens prices in CDN?) but I'm not sure it'd be worth it for that small a difference. I don't think Canon offers any wide angle in that price range that's any better than a kit lens. The 24mm is the cheapest good wide-angle canon offers. The same goes for the 100mm (or the 85mm, but the price is pretty close) in the telephoto range.

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danielsza
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2007-01-22, 19:43

I've been looking at Henry's for the prices...

they have a Rebel XTI with a Sigma 18-200mm f3.5-6.3 DC Canon/62mm for $1399.99 it would be a little bit more then I would want to spend... but I could...

Does anyone know if the Sigma lens would be any good? It also look like it won't work on the SLR...
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2007-01-22, 20:01

You're right to skip the kit lenses. Also, as Matsu mentioned, the EF-S lenses and EF lenses that you mentioned originally, on their respective platforms, overlap.

An EF lens will work on an SLR and DSLR, but an EF-S lens will not work on a film SLR. Bear in mind, also, that your EF lenses will be 1.6x on a Canon DSLR - unless it is FF.

I'm becoming a prime snob myself, but there are times when I wish I had the flexibility of a good zoom, such as the 24-70 f/2.8 L USM lens. That's a decent range and it is also reasonably fast. More importantly, the quality of the glass is leagues above the standard kit junk. So, don't totally rule out a zoom. However, cost *is* a factor. But I diverge.

As for your EF lens options, it's hard to give a recommendation without knowing what you want to shoot? Tell us more.

One more thing. If you get a film body, opt for the Eye Control - incredible technology, well worth it.

PS - Can somebody fix that "srl" in the thread title?

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2007-01-22, 20:11

Daniel - you're all over the shop.

Take a minute. Break it down for us again.

1) What is your budget?
2) Do you want a film or digital SLR now?
3) What type of shots do you want to take?
4) How much of your budget do you want to save for things like bags, cards, tripods, whatever?

This will help.

Also, have you done any of your own research re: lenses - aside from just finding quotes. Have you read any forum comments at fredmiranda.com, or dpreview.com for example?

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Ryan
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2007-01-22, 20:22

Also, perhaps you might look into saving some money by going with the 350D instead, which your link says is CDN$680, and saving some money, which would allow you to buy a better lens?

According to those prices, you could get a:

350D Body - CDN$680
50mm f/1.8 - CDN$120
24mm f/2.8 - CDN$500

This brings you to CDN$1300. IIRC, all the 400D offers above the 350D is two more megapixels and a self-cleaning system. I think you'd probably be plenty happy with the 350D.

That Sigma lens is probably not worth it for two reasons. One being that Sigma typically has very poor quality control, the other being that large range lenses, such as that one, are extremely hard to build well. At that price point, it isn't worth it and you won't be getting the full potential out of the body, since that lens can't even really resolve eight megapixels.

I've gone through two cheap zooms and learned my lesson. I'm sticking to primes for a while now.

Also, another website I've found useful, though it's less of a review site and more of about general photography, is luminous-landscape.com.

Another thing, have you done any shopping around? Is Henry's the only place you've looked? I don't know how Canon adjusts prices for Canadians, but you seem to be paying much more than simply the US price converted into CDN. And are you willing to buy used lenses?
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danielsza
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2007-01-22, 20:22

I know that I'm all over the place...

1) I'm looking to spend around $2300 CND with taxes and shipping

2) I need to get a DSLR soon... but I think that I'll get both the DSLR & the SLR at the same time...

3) I'm not 100% sure what kinda of shots I'm going to take... but I know that for sure I'll want to take some of people... especially of my daughter... Since we finally have some snow... some of the old houses and streets here (I think) would make some nice pictures...

But the main reason that I need to get one right now... is the at the end of Feb. I'm going back to school. Just Part time for now... and I'm going to take Photography for a little while, at collage... before I go back to university to complete my degree (Drama & Communication)

4) Well I already have a tripod... I bought it when I bought my camcorder two years ago... So I think that i should only need around $120.00 for the CF card and a bag...

I've only done a little bit of reading at this point... but I only really started looking today... But everyone seems to say that the kit lenses are crap...

I want to figure out what I want by the end of the week or so...
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Matsu
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2007-01-22, 20:26

The OP is also coming from medim format film. DSLR (APSC) viewfinders are going to look bad by comparison. Get the best viewfinder you can afford, and best AF system you can afford... That's probably one of either a 30D or D80... but don't discount the Pentax K10D

Pair it with a 17-50 range 3rd party f/2.8 zoom as the convenience lense. Tokina, Tamron, and Sigma all have models. 16-50, 17-50, and 18-50 (IIRC).

A cheap 50 is a must. I'd spend a little more and go with a 1.4

Follow on with a 30mm 1.4 from Sigma.

An 85 1.8

one of the 12-24 or 10-20 APSC wide zooms

etc etc ... in that order more or less


BTW, if you're scanning slides, you can get a cheap attachment to do this with your DSLR...

.........................................
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danielsza
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2007-01-22, 20:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian Gray View Post
Another thing, have you done any shopping around? Is Henry's the only place you've looked? I don't know how Canon adjusts prices for Canadians, but you seem to be paying much more than simply the US price converted into CDN. And are you willing to buy used lenses?
I've looked at a few other BestBuy Futureshop Vistek

I would get them from the US... but then theres always the damn customs charges...

I wouldn't mind a used lens...

The other thing is that henry's has some open box camera's / lenses... but they don't list the prices(online)... and the only sell them from the Toronto store... once I know for sure what I want I'll go down there and take a look.
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Ryan
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2007-01-22, 20:35

If you're buying from the US, check out B&H Photo. If anything, they'll have a larger selection.
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danielsza
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2007-01-22, 21:02

If I were to get anything from the US I would probability just go over the boarder and pick it up myself... But I'm not sure where (around Buffalo) to go...
But that only if it's worth taking the trip...

Anyway what about the Canon EF 28-105mm/3.5-4.5 USM (II) $329.99CND
I looked and found a few reviews saying that it's a much better lens then the ones in the kit... and that it's a great lens for the price...
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Ryan
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2007-01-22, 21:23

http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/s...&cat=27&page=1

It does sound better than the kit lens, but I always take FM reviews, *especially* those on cheap zooms, with a large grain of salt. I've found that when it comes to this category of lenses, user reviews tend to not come from professional/experienced photographers, because they aren't spending any time or money on these lenses, so the reviews are often from beginners, or those very new to photography. FM is better than most user review sites, it's probably the best. That said, I'm also very new to photography, so you should probably take what I say with a similarly sized grain of salt. But know this:

In your price range, a zoom will *not* approach the image quality or sharpness of a prime, regardless of which one you get.

But, if you must get a zoom, that's probably your best bet.
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danielsza
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2007-01-22, 21:32

For now I want to get I think 2 lenses that are ok... But better then the kit lenses... And then in a year or two get a few good lenses... hopefully around the same time I can build my darkroom...
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Ryan
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2007-01-22, 21:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielsza View Post
For now I want to get I think 2 lenses that are ok... But better then the kit lenses... And then in a year or two get a few good lenses... hopefully around the same time I can build my darkroom...
In that case, I'd get the zoom you linked to and the 50mm f/1.8.
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danielsza
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2007-01-22, 22:02

That's what I'm thinking I should get...

Canon Rebel XTI body (Black) $949.99
Canon ELAN 7NE body $499.99
Canon EF 50MM/1.8 AF II $119.99
Canon EF 28-105MM/3.5-4.5 USM II
Canon Hood (28-105) $32.99
Canon Gadget Bag $59.99
2GB CF Card $39.99

total with shipping and taxes is about $2330.00
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2007-01-23, 02:48

Wow. It looks like a decision has been made.

Just bear in mind that the view you are used to with your film SLR and lenses will not be the same on your DSLR.

That 50mm will look like an 80mm lens (50*1.6) and the 28-105mm zoom will effectively be rendered a 44.8-168mm zoom, so you won't have any wide angle at all when shooting digital. That's why the EF-S lenses are popular.

Still not convinced of your need to have both digital and film SLR cameras at the moment. If I had to have a DSLR, I'd be saving for a full frame model, so my investment in lenses is not wasted.

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danielsza
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2007-01-23, 10:00

Well tomorrow I'm (hopefully) going to go down to the Toronto store and see if they have any open box or used stuff... maybe I could save some money.

I know that the lenses don't look the same when using a dslr.

I know that I don't need to have have both, but the slr is something I want, not something I need, the dslr I need. I think that maybe in a few years I'll buy a full frame dslr, and hopefully the lenses will stay compatible.
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Dorian Gray
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2007-01-23, 11:32

Hi danielsza, you attributed a quote to me above that I didn't make. Not a problem, just letting you know so you don't get confused if I now disagree with "myself".

Basically, this is a tricky area, especially if you want to share lenses between a DSLR with a 1.6x crop factor and a film camera. Also, everyone is different so has different expectations and demands and opinions.

It's probably a safe bet to guess that you're a technically capable sort of person. If that's true, you're more likely to be annoyed by poor lens quality than someone who won't learn about apertures and diffraction limits and distortion and chromatic aberrations and a hundred other things. This is why I caution you against the kit zoom. On the other hand, there is no cheap way to get wide-angle capability on the DSLR unless you go with the kit zoom. Personally I'd be extremely disappointed if I had to give up wide-angle shots: in fact, I still find them to be the most fun and interesting! So you may want to actually keep the kit zoom for wide-angle stuff, using it well stopped down (e.g. f/11 or f/16) to improve sharpness. Stopping down doesn't remove the geometric distortion practically inherent to cheap (and not so cheap) zooms, but that can be corrected in Photoshop. For your darkroom work you'll want a lens with low distortion, especially for shooting those buildings you mentioned (which have straight lines that expose lens distortion). Prime lenses (non-zooms) nearly always have lower distortion, but there are exceptions.

Lens speed is important too (the aperture to focal length ratio, expressed as an f-stop: f/8 means the aperture is 1/8th of the focal length, so a 50 mm lens set to f/8 will have an aperture of 6.25 mm diameter for the light to come through; "wide open" at f/1.8 it will have an aperture of about 28 mm diameter, so smaller f-numbers mean a brighter image). A "fast" lens - one with a large aperture (a small maximum f-number) - will deliver a brighter image, allowing photography of darker scenes, or photography of moderately bright scenes at lower ISOs (better quality). If you use a tripod, and you should if you have the opportunity to do so, then the maximum aperture of the lens is less important because you can use a longer shutter speed to compensate for the duller image on the sensor.

I'd be inclined to get the ELAN 7E on the second-hand market to save money, and put the saved money into the lens(es). If it were me I'd go with only primes, but I rarely feel constrained by not being able to adjust the focal length on the fly. On the other hand, you might: some people would find a fixed focal length almost impossible (look at the huge sales of "super-zooms" - zoom lenses with focal length ratios of 7x or even 10x or more). I'd rather have flexibility in another direction: aperture, for shooting in low light, which is often interesting light.

Perhaps you could get the XTi with the kit lens, buy a cheap 50 mm f/1.8 to see what you're missing in terms of quality, and then buy nothing else until you get a feel for what you're missing. Maybe you would find yourself liking the speed of the prime but wanting something wider: in that case you could get a wide-angle prime. Maybe you'd like the telephoto end of your zoom but find f/5.6 (or whatever) just isn't cutting it: then you could get a telephoto prime or a faster zoom. Maybe you find the quality of the zoom not as bad as all that, in which case you could get a super-zoom. In all cases you'd get exactly what you want rather than guessing now.

But as complicated as these decisions can be, it's not the end of the world if you get something you don't like. You could easily sell it to the hordes of willing buyers out there and get what you'd rather have. Real-life experience with the XTi will inform your future purchases.

… engrossed in such factional acts as dreaming different dreams.
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billybobsky
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2007-01-23, 12:45

The lack of true wide angleness on my Canon 20D has me coveting an upgrade to a full frame sensor...

And while it is true that poor lens quality can make good shots bad, I honestly think that the typical undescerning viewer will never notice that a beutiful photograph has some color inconsistency...
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danielsza
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2007-01-23, 13:34

Well I think that I'll go with the XTi for now, play around with it for awhile. And then if I feel I need a better camera I'll get one in a year or two. I'll let everyone know once I buy something...

The other thing that I just remembered, about the CoolScan III, that I used a few years back. It was the reason that I made my iMac my primary computer a few years ago (The reason I bought my first Mac... well there were two. First Final Cut Pro... need I say more. And the second was the price, I got my iMac for only $500.00CND with a broken screen... it turned out just to be a bad cable). I did all my scanning on a PC at school and I had everything saved on a cd-r. So later when I needed my pictures, I had to resized them (I think the original BMP for each was about 22Mb). Anyway I figured to speed things up I would use both my iMac and my pc. Well the pc had much better specs then iMac but the iMac was processing the pictures about 2-3x faster then the PC.

Anyway after that I started using my iMac more and more after that.
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Matsu
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2007-01-23, 15:45

There are plenty of true wide angle options for APSC cameras, and lots of the third party stuff is well regarded.

Rectilinear 12-24's (Sigma Tokina Nikon and Pentax); 11-18 (Tamron, all mounts) and 10-20 (from Sigma in all mounts) and 10-22 (Canon) exist, and are well regarded. These correspond to roughly 18-36, 15-30 (and 19-38 and 16-35 in the case of Canon) which is quite wide.

Likewise Nikon has a 10.5mm prime for APSC, and Sigma has an 8mm circular fisheye (12mm equivalent)

The point is that your wide end is covered even for APSC.

.........................................
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