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No Desktop Mac between $799-$1299?


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No Desktop Mac between $799-$1299?
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bborofka
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2004-08-31, 05:24

There's a $500 gap in Apple's desktop lineup (still) that clearly spans the "sweet spot" Fred Anderson was talking about.

Why?!

It seems detrimental to Apple's own benefit to totally block out a price range like that. What would you guys like to see in that place?

I sincerely wish apple would make a no frills, budget-oriented PowerMac Express with a single G5 in an aluminum minitower. Just give it the baseline iMac specs so it doesn't overlap.

1.6GHz PowerPC G5
512K L2 cache
533MHz frontside bus
256MB DDR400 SDRAM
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra (in 8x AGP slot! Upgradable! Attach external monitor!)
64MB DDR video memory
80GB Serial ATA hard drive
Slot-load Combo Drive
1 free drive bay
1 free PCI slot
$999

The iMac is great for the niche buyers that want it, but this sort of thing is what the masses really want!
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Paul
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2004-08-31, 05:26

I'd rather buy two of those instead of a tricked out 20"...
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Barracuda
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2004-08-31, 05:38

Are you kidding? There's not enough G5 chips to go around for the lower price range you mentioned! Maybe someday, but we're not there yet!

The value of the new iMac G5 is EXTRAORDINARY in light of the innovation and the kind of computing experience it provides! Just AMAZING...I don't know how Apple did this! It is completely untouched by ANY competitor!

Apple is a very smart company...they are allocating their chips in the most advanced and intelligent way they possibly can and they are making the most of their profit margins.

This new iMac will definitely share the excitement of the iPod's success.
It's far and away better than I expected of Apple! I've been waiting to be WOWED by them for a long time now...and this is simply a STUNNING acheivement!

Well done, Apple!
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Koodari
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2004-08-31, 06:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barracuda
The value of the new iMac G5 is EXTRAORDINARY in light of the innovation and the kind of computing experience it provides! Just AMAZING...I don't know how Apple did this! It is completely untouched by ANY competitor!
...
This new iMac will definitely share the excitement of the iPod's success.
It's far and away better than I expected of Apple! I've been waiting to be WOWED by them for a long time now...and this is simply a STUNNING acheivement!
As a non-native English speaker, I find it hard to make out if this is sarcasm or if you are under influence of... something. If it's sarcasm, please add more exclamation marks (!!!11!!!) and CAPITAL LETTERS to make it clear for us foreign devils. Thank you.

And to stay on topic just a little bit, I admit to having been a huge proponent of the non-AIO budget Mac. It would be nicest in Cube/ShuttlePC/miniserver format, and have clearer separation from the pro market that way, but I wouldn't mind a tower as long as the price were right.
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Barracuda
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2004-08-31, 07:06

What can I say? I'm an expressive person!!!

And no, I'm not under the influence of anything...just high on life, eh?

Also, the All-In-One concept is smart as far as Apple goes. Who in this World is going to buy a separate display that doesn't match the beauty of the Apple computer itself? That's why the Cube failed...the price of the computer did not include the display and who would buy a cheaper alternative that didn't match or compliment the Cube?

Also, I think there is a cheaper education model without the optical drive...it's mentioned in the press release, but I haven't seen the price yet.

Anyway...this iMac is gonna tear it up! It will be "Number One with a Bullet!"
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BenRoethig
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2004-08-31, 08:24

Did they say they're not making the eMac anymore? If that's the case, they'll be losing a lot of sales.
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Luca
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2004-08-31, 08:57

There's still the Superdrive eMac for $999. Although the only thing you get for your $200 extra is an upgrade to a DVD burner, and an 80 GB hard drive. The 80 GB is a $50 option on the lower end one so I guess they are charging $150 for a DVD burner, which is too much of course.
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kretara
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2004-08-31, 09:14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barracuda
Also, the All-In-One concept is smart as far as Apple goes. Who in this World is going to buy a separate display that doesn't match the beauty of the Apple computer itself?
Anyone who has had multiple AIO monitors die on them. I've had quite a few AIO monitors die on me (going back to the Performa 5XX to the G3 iMac) while the "computer" still worked just fine. Why should I have to then go out and buy a new computer just because a monitor died?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barracuda
That's why the Cube failed...the price of the computer did not include the display and who would buy a cheaper alternative that didn't match or compliment the Cube?
The Cube was a great computer. IMHO, the reason that it sold poorly was because it was vastly overpriced not because it did not come with a display.

Many of us actually use our computers for work not as an artistic statement or status symbol.
At work I currently have my G5 hidden behind my 2 Apple 17" LCD's and a dell 19" LCD (the 19" Dell LCD is shared between the G5 and Dell GX260). I also have a G3 Smurf and Dell Precision KVM'd to a 19 Dell CRT and a 12" PB all sitting on my desk.
At home I have a G3 smurf, a Poweredge and a Gigabit DP all connected via KVM to a 19 Dell CRT.

If one of the monitors above die, I just go buy a new one. If a machine dies I go to ebay (or my boss) and get a new one. If an AIO monitor dies I now have to 1) buy a new monitor 2) try to get the "computer portion of the AIO to "show" on an external monitor and 3) buy a new computer (at least at work) to replace the 50% dead AIO computer.
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hmurchison
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2004-08-31, 12:12

Ahhh yet another "Headless" circle jerk session. Not going to happen fellas. Not because Apple can't but because they won't.

The eMac is there at the lowend if you don't like CRTs then the iMac kicks in for $300 more. This isn't Burger King..you can't have it your way.

omgwtfbbq
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bborofka
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2004-08-31, 12:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barracuda
Also, the All-In-One concept is smart as far as Apple goes.
Oh yeah, people are buying those in droves all over the place! Just look at how well they sell in the PC world! It's like having a PowerBook G5 that doesn't move...

Quote:
Who in this World is going to buy a separate display that doesn't match the beauty of the Apple computer itself? That's why the Cube failed...the price of the computer did not include the display and who would buy a cheaper alternative that didn't match or compliment the Cube?
The Cube failed for more reasons than just not having a "pretty" display to go alone with it. Who in the world is going to buy a separate, unmatching, display? Uh, just about everyone? Most people care about cost and functionality than beauty and physical appearance. Have you never seen a Mac attached to a 3rd party monitor or something? Do you think everyone that buys a PM G5 also buys an expensive LCD?

And yes, I totally forgot about the $999 eMac. I guess it does fill that spot price-wise, but does anyone else think it's a little lacking now?
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kretara
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2004-08-31, 12:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
The eMac is there at the lowend if you don't like CRTs then the iMac kicks in for $300 more. This isn't Burger King..you can't have it your way.
Actually one can. Its called linux. I've been voting with my wallet since the Cube died.

From the people (college kids on campus) that I have talked to many of them love the iPod and think that Apple makes cool stuff but they do not want to be forced into the AIO platform. They want a headless machine. This comes from talking to ~ 60 college kids over the past 2 years.
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BarracksSi
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2004-08-31, 12:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by kretara
Why should I have to then go out and buy a new computer just because a monitor died?
Who said you had to do that? My parents' RevB iMac's monitor went poof, and all they had to do was get a new monitor, not a whole new computer.

I don't understand the disgust with all-in-one computers. It's there, it works, and you can use the extra shelf space in your computer desk for more storage instead of a box of electronics.

Again, going back to my parents, they haven't needed a headless computer to accomplish what they've done with their iMac. Heck, my iBook is effectively a headless computer, and I still do everything on it.
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kretara
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2004-08-31, 12:47

Yes, you can get a new monitor for an AIO. The CRT's for the G3 iMacs have come down in price but are still rather expensive.
G3 iMac
slot load: ~$220
tray load: ~$140

G4 eMac
non ATI graphics: ~$575
ATI graphics: ~$465

Replacement LCD's are God awful expensive.
15" ~$550
17" ~ $660
20" ~ $1060

I would rather save the money and get a better headless machine in the first place.
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Luca
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2004-08-31, 12:51

Yeah, that's insane. A 15" CRT comparable to the quality seen in the G3 iMacs would cost you about $30. A 17" CRT equivalent to the eMac would be about $120.
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BarracksSi
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2004-08-31, 13:02

Still a whole lot less than a new computer.
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Koodari
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2004-08-31, 14:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
This isn't Burger King..you can't have it your way.
You're right. "Think Different" sounds pretty old fashioned anyway.
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Koodari
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2004-08-31, 14:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarracksSi
I don't understand the disgust with all-in-one computers. It's there, it works, and you can use the extra shelf space in your computer desk for more storage instead of a box of electronics.
Over six years ago I bought a 19" CRT, the first one to market. It was expensive, at least I thought it was because I was just a kid back then, but I could afford it because I knew it would last me a long time. Since then, the display has served with three different computers in a row, and now it's connected to a PS2 with a VGA adapter. I have had no other displays before I went and bought a Powerbook a few months ago.

When I pour a good chunk of money in a quality flat panel sometime in the future, I expect it to last as long as this CRT has lasted.

If these computers were AIO's, I would have had to use crappy screens the last six years, because I could not have afforded to get a good one with each computer. I'd be playing the PS2 at my friend's place, who has a television. I don't.

This answer any of your questions?
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hmurchison
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2004-08-31, 14:41

Quote:
Actually one can. Its called linux. I've been voting with my wallet since the Cube died.
Linux is far from being what the Dr ordered. It's great if you have some obsessive hatred for Microsoft and love to tinker but there is nothing that Linux offers technically that we don't have in OSX with a much better UI and set of frameworks. I'm in college so I know the pressure to get things as cheaply as possible but an iMac is never going to be your choice if you don't like AIO. A refurb tower is your best option.

Quote:
You're right. "Think Different" sounds pretty old fashioned anyway.
Yes, not to mention grammatically incorrect.


Headless Macs at the low end aren't coming anytime soon. One only need look at the money Apple pulls in via HW sales versus SW sales to realize that they aren't going to jeopardize this vital piece. People need to pray that the iPod can be a sustainable revenue stream because Apple is not diverse enough to offer low cost hardware without hurting their wallstreet performance.

omgwtfbbq
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bborofka
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2004-08-31, 15:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarracksSi
I don't understand the disgust with all-in-one computers. It's there, it works, and you can use the extra shelf space in your computer desk for more storage instead of a box of electronics.
I don't understand the excitement with all-in-one computers. Only a select niche of people buy them, consumers would rather have a separate box and display. The market has proved this. We have desks to set stuff on like desktop computers and monitors. If I really need more desk space and compactness, I'd just get a laptop. I'd get portability with that too.
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hmurchison
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2004-08-31, 16:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by bborofka
I don't understand the excitement with all-in-one computers. Only a select niche of people buy them, consumers would rather have a separate box and display. The market has proved this. We have desks to set stuff on like desktop computers and monitors. If I really need more desk space and compactness, I'd just get a laptop. I'd get portability with that too.
You do realize that iBooks and Powerbooks are AIO computers as well. So yes in fact the market "has" proved this. AIO form factors are convenient. The desktop is declining on both platform in lieu of portables. Thus Apple is merely making their desktop line more palatable for the evolving tastes of its end users. If someone truly needs a bunch of upgradability then they can simply buy a Powermac and be future proofed to a wider extent.

omgwtfbbq
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bborofka
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2004-08-31, 17:44

I guess we'll just keep debating this until it ends, if it ever does. It's really up to Jobs whether or not we get a cheap, headless Mac, not us. He cares more about what he thinks we need rather than what we really want. Oh well, no harm in advocating my opinions, here goes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
You do realize that iBooks and Powerbooks are AIO computers as well. So yes in fact the market "has" proved this.
Duh. I was speaking in the context of Desktop computers. People want AIO laptops, not AIO LCD desktops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
AIO form factors are convenient. The desktop is declining on both platform in lieu of portables. Thus Apple is merely making their desktop line more palatable for the evolving tastes of its end users.
Convenience is in the eye of the beholder. Personally I would find plugging in my existing monitor to a computer and tucking the box under my desk much more convenient than having a totally inflexible computer permanently attached to a nice LCD, all for a little less desktop space and 2 less cords. I wonder how most other consumers would feel about that too?

And, because portables are becoming more popular, Apple should make their desktops more like portables? That's I fail to see the point in that, since portables and desktops truly are 2 different markets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
If someone truly needs a bunch of upgradability then they can simply buy a Powermac and be future proofed to a wider extent.
I've already heard this many times from people with similar opinions as yours, and I don't accept it as an argument. $2000 is out of my price range, and no, I'm not willing to rearrange my budget to justify Apple's high pricing for a computer with flexibility.
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alcimedes
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2004-08-31, 18:02

i think the problem is that there is a big divide between people who want a computer as a computer, and people who want a computer as an appliance. the appliance crowd want/like the AIO.

the computer types want a computer. the cheaper and more upgradable the better.

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bborofka
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2004-08-31, 18:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes
i think the problem is that there is a big divide between people who want a computer as a computer, and people who want a computer as an appliance. the appliance crowd want/like the AIO.

the computer types want a computer. the cheaper and more upgradable the better.
Good point. I guess the big question is, then, are computers ready to be appliances?
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BarracksSi
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2004-08-31, 18:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes
i think the problem is that there is a big divide between people who want a computer as a computer, and people who want a computer as an appliance. the appliance crowd want/like the AIO.

the computer types want a computer. the cheaper and more upgradable the better.
I think that's the gist of it.

Stick me with the appliance crowd, then. I may have been modifying my car, but I've never felt the urge to modify my computer. It's like my TV, or my phone, or my microwave -- it does the job that I bought it to do (or "hired", in a way). It'll keep running until it either breaks or I find something entirely new that requires me to upgrade, and by that point, I'd need a whole new computer to do it, anyway.

My parents are the same way, so it's probably my upbringing. I've also been using computers, almost always at school, ever since a fleet of black Apple II's in 5th grade (1982, maybe). I've never had to rebuild them or upgrade individual parts. I finally bought my own iBook in '99, and that was mainly because I was about to graduate college, and couldn't plan on skimming off the school labs anymore.

I watch some friends do this & that to their computers, changing motherboards, video cards, sound cards, etc etc etc, ending up with the case as the only original part, and I just never understood why, especially when it worked before.

One a side note, PC people ask me what sound card I put into in my iBook, and I go, "What do you mean, 'sound card'? It's got sound already -- it came like that." It's just less hassle for me to worry about.
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BarracksSi
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2004-08-31, 18:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by bborofka
Good point. I guess the big question is, then, are computers ready to be appliances?
Oh, yeah, I think they are. I think they could have been appliances for a while, now, too.
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alcimedes
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2004-08-31, 21:58

Macs, maybe. PC's, no.

When the average Windows computer a person brings home get's compromised within 20 min., it's not ready to be an appliance.

Macs on the other hand can pull it off. Grandma call pull it out of the box, plug it in, and it pretty much will just keep working.

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BarracksSi
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2004-08-31, 22:38

Then the Windows PCs still need to play catch up.
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bborofka
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2004-08-31, 23:28

I think the computer industry is advancing way too fast to become true appliances yet. A computer is a tool that does certain tasks, and tools and tasks keep changing dramatically. We have not, and aren't even close, to hitting a ceiling in performance. Gigabit Ethernet, 64bit processors, advanced OS technologies keep paving the way for something that shows no sign of slowing down. Clocks, phones, TVs, DVD players... while they certainly do have their own advancements, at least aren't as rapid as the PC industry and you know a ceiling is in sight. There's only so thin and so large a TV can get, or so many formats a DVD player can read. Can you imagine if you had to get updates for those things ever few weeks, and had to replace them with newer technology every couple years?

On top of that, I think computers are still too expensive to be appliances. When the industry is ready, if ever, there will be appliance-type PCs. Until then, a computer will be a computer, and attempts to deviate from this will likely fail. Witness WebTV, tablet computers, and all-in-one desktop computers.
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BarracksSi
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2004-09-01, 00:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by bborofka
We have not, and aren't even close, to hitting a ceiling in performance.
On the other hand, we might be hitting a sort of "ceiling" in the need for performance -- in that there doesn't seem to be a whole lot more that we can ask a computer to do. Now that the basic computers can edit video & sound (and do some practically broadcast-quality effects if you're willing to shell out the bucks for the software), I can't think of much else that I'd want a computer to do on its own that it's not capable of doing already.

The next frontier, as we know, will be integrating the computer into the home. One way to make that happen sooner rather than later is to change the form factor, and the G5 iMac has certainly taken steps to do that.
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DMBand0026
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2004-09-01, 01:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
Ahhh yet another "Headless" circle jerk session. Not going to happen fellas. Not because Apple can't but because they won't.

The eMac is there at the lowend if you don't like CRTs then the iMac kicks in for $300 more. This isn't Burger King..you can't have it your way.
This is me bowing, cause no one in the world could have put this better than you just did. Not only is it spot on, but it's funny too

Come waste your time with me
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