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The Be-All, End-All discussion on LCD monitors and LCD panel types.


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The Be-All, End-All discussion on LCD monitors and LCD panel types.
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Majost
monkey with a tiny cymbal
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lost
 
2007-08-08, 22:18

To be honest, I have no idea. But I know someone who does:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
There are four different types of LCD panels. For our purposes, we can discard discussion of TN panels because they are the worst of the bunch
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alcimedes
I shot the sherrif.
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2007-08-08, 22:28

Ha ha ha ah ha. Prophetic. Although not surprising in a consumer model with a throwaway monitor.
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Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2007-09-26, 14:28

For the record, here are the display panel types behind Apple's current lineup:

MacBook: TN panel, CCFL backlight. Not very good.
2.2/2.4 GHz MacBook Pro 15": S-IPS panel, LED backlight. Very good, SWOP certified.
All other MacBook Pro 15": S-IPS panel, CCFL backlight. Not bad, but not SWOP certified because the backlight is too uneven.
MacBook Pro 17": S-IPS panel, CCFL backlight. Not bad, but not SWOP certified because the backlight is too uneven.
All 20"/24" iMacs except the new 20": S-IPS panel, CCFL backlight. Very good. SWOP certified.
Current 20" iMac: TN panel, CCFL backlight. Not very good.
17" iMacs: don't know. Would guess S-IPS CCFL.
All Cinema Displays: S-IPS panel, CCFL backlight. Very good. SWOP certified.

For those curious, this information came from a few Apple geniuses, a few online takeaparts, and some spec sheets.

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
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washington mac user
can't read
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
 
2007-10-06, 22:41

has anybody checked out the new Gateway XHD 3000? It's looking pretty good...

http://www.gateway.com/accessories/p...72R.php?seg=hm

The sound bar is optional. Just look at how may ports it has and the Silicon Optix Realta® HQV® "Hollywood Quality Video" proccesing unit in it. Also check this out:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multime...004093742.html

Quote:
Gateway’s XHD3000 display features S-PVA panel and offers 1000:1 contrast ratio, 400 cd/m2 brightness, 6ms (grey-to-grey) refresh rate as well as 178° wide viewing angle both horizontally and vertically.
Sounds like the perfect monitor... You could connect a 360 (or PS3), Wii, PC and Mac and still have ports that aren't used.
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nikstar101
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2008-01-17, 13:27

OK i am going to kick start this thread again.
Since the Apple Cinema Displays haven't really been updated since 2006 (i think). When do people think they will be upgraded?

I reckon that it will have to be sometime this year, as Apple said it wanted to make its displays Mercury and arsenic free by 2009, plus they really want to make LED backlit displays. But i have now been waiting for about 6 months for a new display and i am starting to crack and i might end up buying a 23' now/
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Fahrenheit
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2008-01-17, 13:33

I don't believe they have been updated since June 2004, actually. They have had price cuts occasionally, and the 30 inch had improved spec in 2006 I think.
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nikstar101
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2008-01-17, 13:40

Right if that true then i am even more dis-chuffed with Apple for not updating it two days ago!! What the heck is going on. I know as soon as i buy the old 23 inch they will update it the next day.
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Yonzie
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Join Date: Sep 2005
 
2008-01-17, 13:41

What Farenheit said. 28th of June 2004 is when they were introduced. All 3 got minor updates in 2006 with the 30" improving the most.

AFAIK, LG.Philips is coming out with a new 30" LED-backlit panel in a few months. Then we will hopefully see new displays.

Converted 07/2005.
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RogerL
 
 
2008-04-12, 14:00

I have a Gateway XHD 3000, which I bought because of its superior image and connectivity to the 30" Apple Cinema Display. However, it turns out that the associated software, EzTune runs only on Windows and, in its absence, many of the display controls (for example, contrast) are not controllable! Gateway has not been able to do anything for me, except to say that "yes" they have heard that. They think it may be associated with the NVidia 7300 graphic cards in the MacPro. I may install Parallels and XP and use EzTune in that partition, but haven't tried it yet. Anyone else have this problem and/or found a solution to it?
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Dorian Gray
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2008-04-14, 08:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerL
I have a Gateway XHD 3000, which I bought because of its superior image and connectivity to the 30" Apple Cinema Display.
Much better connectivity (and future-proofness), yes, but "superior image"? In what sense? Gateway is not known for making good monitors, and that model has a VA panel. I can find no mention of the backlight it uses, which is very important for wide-gamut colour accuracy. For these reasons I think it pretty unlikely that the XHD3000 would beat the Cinema Display on image quality. But I haven't seen it.

Cinema Displays are not as overpriced as some people suggest. They have good backlights and good IPS panels, good build quality and unobtrusive bezels. They are a known entity, relied upon by photographers and printers all over the world. There are better displays for sure, but value for money and "good enough" are important considerations too.

VA panels have improved more rapidly than IPS panels in recent years, but the fact that NEC and EIZO still use IPS tech in their best monitors suggests that IPS still has the edge for accurate colour. A lot of the VA models I've seen are also far too bright, meaning you have to turn the backlight down a lot to use them, resulting in tainted whites.

EIZO monitors, especially the low-end ones, do seem a bit overpriced though. Hardware calibration and software gadgets can only add so much value.

… engrossed in such factional acts as dreaming different dreams.
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Yonzie
Mac Mini Maniac
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
 
2008-05-15, 20:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
2.2/2.4 GHz MacBook Pro 15": S-IPS panel, LED backlight. Very good, SWOP certified.
All other MacBook Pro 15": S-IPS panel, CCFL backlight. Not bad, but not SWOP certified because the backlight is too uneven.
My 15" MBP 2.16Ghz is clearly using a TN panel. The above must be referring only to newer MBPs, since I've read elsewhere that MBPs uses TN panels. Now I want a new one even more

On another note, I just upgraded from 24" to 30"... It's unbelievably huge. Demos at the store does not confer the immenseness of 2560x1600.

Back in the day, I ordered a pair of Dell 2005FPW 20" wide-screen monitors. Quality wasn't acceptable (backlight bleed), and they were exchanged for the Dell 2405FPW 24" screen. I must honestly say that I got more use out of the 24"er than I'd have gotten from the pair of 20"ers.

Upgrading to 30" is almost overwhelming. Instead of windows taking up a large portion of the screen (on 24" it's ridiculous to maximize browser windows, but they still used the full top-to-bottom area), they take up a small part. Keeping the browser window the same size, it only takes up slightly more than a quarter of the total screen real-estate (down from slightly more than half the screen...)
My browser window is 1024 px wide and 1139 px high (guess I made it a bit taller) for 1.17Mpx, the screen is 4.1Mpx...

You have no idea what it's like to use a 30" screen until one have graced your desk. On the 24" screen, Firefox dominated the majority of the screen (more than half). Now it's just a free-floating window. Srsly. Try it.

EDIT: Oh, and my iTunes window, which used to take up almost the entire screen? It's just a small window now... This thing is truly incredible.

Converted 07/2005.
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Luca
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2008-05-20, 09:57

Apple's displays are still overpriced, even with S-IPS. There are non-TN panels out there that cost a lot less than Apple's displays.

Case in point:

Doublesight DS-263N - 26" 1920x1200 H-IPS display, 3 year warranty, DVI + VGA inputs, USB hub, $700. The Apple display is 3" smaller, has a mere 1 year warranty, has only a single DVI input, and costs $200 more.

HP LP2465 - 24" S-PVA monitor, dual DVI inputs that can also be used with VGA devices using the included DVI-VGA cables, USB hub, 3 year warranty, $620.

Viewsonic VX2435wm - 24" P-MVA monitor, DVI, VGA, component, S-video, and composite inputs, 3 year warranty, $700.

So there are other options out three if you don't want a TN display. You do have to pay more, but Apple's monitors are still way overpriced, have far less features, and come with a gimped warranty. On the one hand, finding a non-TN 20-22" LCD is going to be really hard, and Apple's one of the only options there, but on the other hand, you can get a 24" non-TN monitor for about the same as an Apple 20" that doesn't even do full HD resolution.

So yeah, unless you like paying extra to lose functionality, don't get an Apple display.
  quote
Wrao
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Join Date: May 2004
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2008-05-20, 10:47

My Macbook's display is so incredibly superior to my old Powerbook display. At least, to my eyes, and I'm not SWOP certified.
  quote
Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2008-06-06, 11:48

For the record:

MacBook Air: LED display, TN panel. Bright, sharp but poor vertical viewing angle. (It is a fraction of an inch thick, after all.)
High-Res 17" MBP: LED, TN. Extremely sharp with a bright and even backlight to match.
The normal 17" MPB remains unchanged: CCFL backlight.

Regarding the S-IPS panel in the MacBook Pro.... I'm thinking my earlier reports we're incorrect. I unfortunately don't remember where I got that information, but I do believe that the MacBook Pro - all models - use a TN panel based on my own observations of the viewing angle.

Apologies for neglecting this thread. I'll be more vigilant in the future

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
  quote
Dorian Gray
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2008-06-06, 12:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
Regarding the S-IPS panel in the MacBook Pro.... I'm thinking my earlier reports we're incorrect. I unfortunately don't remember where I got that information, but I do believe that the MacBook Pro - all models - use a TN panel based on my own observations of the viewing angle.
That's disappointing, though I guess TN panels are good enough for most things now, and very few people really need an IPS display while on the move.

Do any laptops have IPS panels these days? And did any of the PowerBook G4s have IPS displays?
  quote
Kraetos
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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2008-06-06, 13:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian Gray View Post
That's disappointing, though I guess TN panels are good enough for most things now, and very few people really need an IPS display while on the move.

Do any laptops have IPS panels these days? And did any of the PowerBook G4s have IPS displays?
Doubt it. Back then it was S-IPS panels were even more expensive. And thicker. The acrylic cinema displays weren't even S-IPS, they were S-PVA, I think.

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
  quote
Swox
OK Mr. Sunshine!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
 
2008-06-16, 21:09

I'm thinking of getting a 22" LCD. I'd be using it for word processing, gaming, some amateur photography editing, and music software. Is this Dell one any good? Any other ones I should be considering? I'm trying to keep it at or below $300 before taxes. I'd go for a 20" if it was significantly better or cheaper.

Oh, and I definitely want a matte panel. I hate the glossy ones.

Thanks

Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind!
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Luca
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Join Date: May 2004
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2008-06-17, 00:05

That Dell is a TN monitor. My brother got a Westinghouse 22" over a year ago for $70 less than that Dell costs today. It's also a TN monitor. If you're considering a TN (which you pretty much have to do if you're looking at <$300 monitors), you may as well go for something cheaper. Go to NewEgg and look at the monitors that have lots and lots of ratings and a 4- or 5-egg score.

Here's one: Acer 22". It's $230 shipped and it's basically the same as the Dell.

TN monitors don't have the best quality or color correctness, but they're not as bad as many people make them out to be. They're fine if you're just using them for your computer and viewing them straight on, because they don't have the best viewing angles. Also, they're actually better for gaming - they have faster response times.

Besides, for your price range, I doubt you have much of a choice. A non-TN LCD is going to cost you at least $500 regardless of size, and I'm not even sure if there are any below 24". Any 20-22" non-TN monitor is going to cost almost as much as a 24" non-TN one anyway.
  quote
Swox
OK Mr. Sunshine!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
 
2008-06-17, 00:29

Cool, thanks for the advice Luca. I normally obsess over purchases, studying the product type for weeks before I buy them so I know fing everything about them, but I'm just too tired to build up that kind of enthusiasm right now...

I'll shop around locally and see what I can get.

Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind!
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Luca
ಠ_ರೃ
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2008-06-17, 00:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swox View Post
Cool, thanks for the advice Luca. I normally obsess over purchases, studying the product type for weeks before I buy them so I know fing everything about them, but I'm just too tired to build up that kind of enthusiasm right now...

I'll shop around locally and see what I can get.
You won't find much. Local shops are going to be selling 19" widescreen LCDs (1440x900 resolution) for $250+, and you almost certainly won't find a 22" for under $300. Plus you'll have to pay tax.

There's something to be said for buying locally, especially for things that cost basically the same in person vs. online (Macs, games and other software, clearance items). But when it comes to most computer hardware, you can expect to pay 50-100% more to buy locally vs. online, not including tax.
  quote
Swox
OK Mr. Sunshine!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
 
2008-06-17, 19:40

One more question (for now): What's a good review site for monitors? I hate cnet... there has to be something more reliable. Any favorites?
  quote
noleli2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Chicago
 
2008-07-28, 09:52

What's the deal with 22" monitors being only 1680 x 1050? That's the same resolution as the 17" MBP. As far as I'm concerned, the point of a larger monitor should be more pixels, not making everything on screen bigger.

Aside from one Lenovo monitor, it looks like I'll have to go with a 24" to get 1920 x 1200. Have any of you seen any other 22" (or even as low as 20") monitors that have more pixels than the 17" MBP?
  quote
noleli2
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2008-08-01, 08:12

I mean, I don't understand why you can get a 17" laptop display at 1920 x 1200, but you can't get that in a desktop monitor for under 24". What's the deal?
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Kraetos
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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2008-08-01, 10:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by noleli2 View Post
I mean, I don't understand why you can get a 17" laptop display at 1920 x 1200, but you can't get that in a desktop monitor for under 24". What's the deal?
It's because, without resolution independent operating systems, you don't want to venture too north of 100 DPI. A 24" monitor with a 1920x1200 max resolution comes in at 98 DPI and is very comfortable. It's more or less okay with desktop monitors because, if you need more dots, you can always buy a bigger monitor.

Manufactures break this rule all the time with laptop screens, though, because the portability factor comes into play. When you hit 17", you've pretty much gone as far as you can go with a laptop before it becomes a luggable. But if you stuck with the 100 DPI rule under those circumstances, you wouldn't get above 1440 x 900, and some people just plain need more dots. So (I believe Dell was the first) the manufacturers started producing these screens with retina-scarring DPIs.

If DPIs get too high, it can put a strain on ones vision. I personally think that 133 DPI - which is what 1920x1200 on 17" generates - is way too high. Hurts my eyes. Hopefully Snow Leopard brings system wide RI, which would be super cool, since it would let Apple ship cinema displays with stratospheric resolutions. Then, maybe, they wouldn't be so overpriced.

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
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noleli2
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2008-08-01, 14:12

I guess I just want to take advantage of my better-than-perfect vision to get as much screen real estate as possible.

I don't really like the idea of getting a 22" monitor and having the same amount of space on screen as on the 17" laptop.
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nikstar101
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2011-08-08, 02:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swox View Post
One more question (for now): What's a good review site for monitors? I hate cnet... there has to be something more reliable. Any favorites?
I know that i am replying to an old thread here, but since i have just been on a monitor search and i think people will probably continue to use this thread for information when selecting a monitor (i hope), here is the best website i have found regarding testing of displays. Very thorough and knows what he is talking about.

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/
  quote
Dorian Gray
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2011-08-12, 16:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikstar101 View Post
I know that i am replying to an old thread here, but since i have just been on a monitor search and i think people will probably continue to use this thread for information when selecting a monitor (i hope), here is the best website i have found regarding testing of displays. Very thorough and knows what he is talking about.

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/
Am I missing something or has TFT Central reviewed just about every monitor made except anything by EIZO? I was wondering what they thought about the EIZO ColorEdge CG223W, which I recently purchased to replace an underperforming NEC MultiSync P221W.

Not that it makes much difference. I'm very happy with the EIZO. I finally have a "smart monitor" with a wide colour gamut, excellent evenness of colour and brightness across the display, good ergonomics, and solid build. Hope it lasts for five years!
  quote
AWR
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2013-10-03, 07:58

Hola, tothom.

I need to buy a 23" monitor to use as a desktop display for a new Macbook Air.

Any tips? I don't need pro specs by any means but I appreciate a nice display. Can have for under 300 bucks?

Thanks for any help.
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PB PM
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2013-10-03, 08:29

Wow, way to resurrect an old thread!

Anyway, nothing specific, since there isn't anything standoutish in the cheap under $300 range. You should at least look to get an LED backlit panel. Your basic LG, Samsung or Dell display for around $300 will be decent. You might find some non TN panels on that price range (not ISP), but not the worst stuff.
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AWR
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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2013-10-03, 09:47

Hehe ...

Thanks PB PM. There are so many bloody models out there and I don't know much about the inputs outputs ms refresh etc.

Btw, what's the best way to connect such items?

I don't mind doing a little research, but I don't trust the sites necessarily. Is there a decent neutral place that reviews stuff like this?
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