[chucker]

Originally Posted by Eugene So... If I sell someone a PC built around a 2.4 GHz Q6600 and then configure it to run at 3 GHz, can I claim it's not overclocked because I tested it for a couple of days?

If you're a business? Sure you could – but you'd be responsible for providing the warranty.

If you're selling it as a person, then the question is pointless.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by chucker If you're selling it as a person, then the question is pointless.

To whom? I made the promise, therefore it's not overclocked!

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Eugene To whom? I made the promise, therefore it's not overclocked!

I really doubt you can't see the difference between a professional business selling a product and a private person doing so, and I also really doubt you don't understand that, when a business sells you something, they guarantee (hence warranty!) you that it'll work exactly they way they sold it to you. The term "overclocking" implies that something has been done that wasn't intended, and that's completely against the whole point of selling a product to begin with.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by chucker I really doubt you can't see the difference between a professional business selling a product and a private person doing so, and I also really doubt you don't understand that, when a business sells you something, they guarantee (hence warranty!) you that it'll work exactly they way they sold it to you. The term "overclocking" implies that something has been done that wasn't intended, and that's completely against the whole point of selling a product to begin with.

I can warrant a claim as an individual just as well. Overclocking does not imply anything, and that's where you really seem to be confused. It is an action that can performed by an individual or on a factory production line.

[apple007]

I don't know 1% as much about this stuff as 'chucker' and 'Eugene' obviously do, but I always thought "overclocking" simply meant that a chip was being made to perform at higher than spec (??). I don't understand how a warranty comes into play. Otherwise, why would a company, like in the clipped ad above, advertise a product as "overclocked"? If the company is guaranteeing performance, then it wouldn't be considered overclocked (at least not under 'chucker's' definition), would it?

[Gargoyle]

Originally Posted by chucker E-fricking-xactly. They know what they are doing. That is the promise they make to you as a customer. They choose the components of the product they sell you. ... snip ... That is why people buy complete systems from companies like Apple and Dell to begin with: so that they don't have to deal with CPU manufacturers directly.

I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one that couldn't see the merits of Eugene's argument.

Eugene, You are the manufacturer of your systems, (Which is why you can buy an OEM version of vista for $100 and not the full price) the buck stops with you. If you had fried your new system during your 30 hour test of your overclock then you would have to foot the bill for replacements. I am happy to pay Apple a few $$$ for that privilege!

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by apple007 I don't know 1% as much about this stuff as 'chucker' and 'Eugene' obviously do, but I always thought "overclocking" simply meant that a chip was being made to perform at higher than spec (??). I don't understand how a warranty comes into play. Otherwise, why would a company, like in the clipped ad above, advertise a product as "overclocked"? If the company is guaranteeing performance, then it wouldn't be considered overclocked (at least not under 'chucker's' definition), would it?

Chucker's definition is his own.

He's compounding the simple action of overclocking with other concepts like guarantees and consequences. Unless Dell receives unrated CPUs from Intel and AMD, there is no denying some of their PCs are using "factory overclocked" components. Maybe chucker should fire off an e-mail to correct them...

[Gargoyle]

Originally Posted by Eugene He's compounding the simple action of overclocking with other concepts like guarantees and consequences. Unless Dell receives unrated CPUs from Intel and AMD, there is no denying some of their PCs are using "factory overclocked" components.

Yes, but what he is trying to hammer home is that fact that it does not matter to him as an end user - if the chip fails he does a warranty claim to Dell. Dell however, have to swallow the cost of that failed chip because they overclocked it!

If you overclock it, you pay for the failure!

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by Gargoyle I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one that couldn't see the merits of Eugene's argument.

Yonzie also had to spell out to you my rationale for comparing a DIY PC to a Mac Pro, so I'm not surprised you agree with chucker.

Eugene, You are the manufacturer of your systems, (Which is why you can buy an OEM version of vista for $100 and not the full price) the buck stops with you. If you had fried your new system during your 30 hour test of your overclock then you would have to foot the bill for replacements. I am happy to pay Apple a few $$$ for that privilege!

Exactly, I'm the system-builder, just like Dell. I'm also an individual, but that doesn't change the fact that I can make a promise. Yes, I'll foot the bill for the person who buys my PC if the CPU burns up in a puff of blue smoke. By chucker's definition, as long as I make that guarantee, it is not an overclocked CPU.

Get it? Probably not.

If you overclock it, you pay for the failure!

It's not an overclock, I promise!

[Gargoyle]

Originally Posted by Eugene Get it? Probably not.

I get it exactly... ***** YOU ***** have rated the chip at the new speed, not intel. So as far as **** YOUR **** customer is concerned the machine is not overclocked!

Now do you get it?

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by Gargoyle I get it exactly... ***** YOU ***** have rated the chip at the new speed, not intel. So as far as **** YOUR **** customer is concerned the machine is not overclocked! Now do you get it?

ROFL.

It's a modded Mustang, no wait it's an unmodded Shelby modded Mustang!

[Gargoyle]

Originally Posted by Eugene Yonzie also had to spell out to you my rationale for comparing a DIY PC to a Mac Pro, so I'm not surprised you agree with chucker.

There is no rationale (or comparison) one is a homebrew the other is a bottle of bud!

Originally Posted by Eugene ROFL.

I take it you have reached enlightenment?!?

[Gargoyle]

And a Shelby mustang costs the same as a normal one?

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by Gargoyle Yes, but what he is trying to hammer home is that fact that it does not matter to him as an end user - if the chip fails he does a warranty claim to Dell. Dell however, have to swallow the cost of that failed chip because they overclocked it!

Overclocking has nothing to do with who is liable. Like chucker, you are arguing about responsibility rather than the simple action of taking a CPU and changing its predefined clockrate.

And a Shelby mustang costs the same as a normal one?

What on earth does that have to do with whether it was modded? Cost is irrelevant.

[Gargoyle]

Originally Posted by Eugene Overclocking has nothing to do with who is liable.

It has everything to do with liability!!!!! What do you think would happen if I started selling 5GHz Xeons on ebay?

Originally Posted by Eugene What on earth does that have to do with whether it was modded? Cost is irrelevant.

Cost is not irrelevant, because somewhere along the line someone has to pay if the uprated parts fail!

[Gargoyle]

PAUSE!!!! I need to go get another beer!

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by Gargoyle It has everything to do with liability!!!!! What do you think would happen if I started selling 5GHz Xeons on ebay?

You'd be in the clear as long as you promise it'll work! Seriously...since when did the simple action of taking a component and making it run faster than the original manufacturer morph into this bastard compound-definiton of yours (and chucker's).

Overclocking isn't about making your clockrates faster, guys, it's about liability and cost! It's about Pinkberry fro-yo too because I said so.

[Gargoyle]

Originally Posted by Eugene You'd be in the clear as long as you promise it'll work!

And how many returns do you think I would get?

Originally Posted by Eugene Overclocking isn't about making your clockrates faster, guys, it's about liability and cost! It's about Pinkberry fro-yo too because I said so.

Your sarcasm isn't working, you just sound like your contradicting yourself now!

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by Gargoyle And how many returns do you think I would get? Your sarcasm isn't working, you just sound like your contradicting yourself now!

Who cares, I'm merely pointing our how irrational your statements are. Overclocking is the practice of taking a component like a CPU and running it at speeds faster than it was designed for. Dell is in fact "factory overclocking" an Intel designed CPU, testing it, and selling it to a customer with warranty. All of that is true, but you seem to think that the above situation is impossible.

Of course the real reason why this argument has endured this many posts is because chucker said overclocking is for kiddies...and then I mentioned Apple factory overclocked the first batches of its MDD Power Macs. We all know that Apple can't be compared to zit-faced 16 year olds.

[Gargoyle]

Originally Posted by Eugene Who cares, I'm merely pointing our how irrational your statements are.

Sigh!

Our statements are not irrational. We are not denying or questioning the definition of "Overclocking". It's your perspective that is questionable!

Why do you think dell are only advertising "Overclocked" components on the XPS (gamer) systems????
Because you think its cool!!!


Why did apple not advertise the fact that the PowerMac was overclocked to 1.25???
Because we don't give a shit as long as the warranty stands.

[Eugene]

Maybe you weren't here when chucker posted this?

Again, it doesn't matter which systems Dell advertises as overclocked. They clearly are, and whether they have a warranty is irrelevant.

Apple did not advertise its overclocked processors, correct! Most people didn't give it shit. Also correct! That doesn't change the fact that Apple overclocked them to run at 25% over the manufacturer rated design.

An analogous series of statements would be something like this:
All chimpanzees are mammals. All mammals are warm blooded. Rocket engines are powered by turtles!

Just because you use two linked logical statements in progression, that doesn't mean your next utterly unrelated and false statement is true.

[Yonzie]

If it's overclocked, it's overclocked. Period.
However, a manufacturer can still sell it as is, without saying it's overclocked, with warranty etc. (provided they don't misrepresent the CPU used). If it blows up just out of warranty, the laws of capitalism applies and you can take your business elsewhere (and complain loudly).
I also wholeheartedly agree that overclocking production systems isn't exactly the smartest move. If one wants a faster CPU, one has to weigh the cost/benefits of buying something more expensive versus overclocking and possibly face downtime.

[Gargoyle]

hmmm, beer or reply...


beer or reply...


beer.


But before I go, I'll give it just one more turn!!!

[chucker]

(Someone needs to tell Eugene that when he makes links to individual posts, they have a tendency to be broken.)

Originally Posted by apple007 I don't know 1% as much about this stuff as 'chucker' and 'Eugene' obviously do, but I always thought "overclocking" simply meant that a chip was being made to perform at higher than spec (??).

The vendor makes the spec. That's why they're a vendor. Whether that vendor happens to make the CPU themselves or merely resell it, and whether they change any of its parameters, are completely irrelevant.

[Miko]

This is one of the most painful threads I have read in a long time, but since I have nothing to say or add other than WOW! I will just keep moving on.

[Eugene]

The vendor makes the spec. That's why they're a vendor. Whether that vendor happens to make the CPU themselves or merely resell it, and whether they change any of its parameters, are completely irrelevant.

The vendor makes the spec for the final product they sell. The CPU vendor makes the spec for the CPU. Understand? You could continue to argue semantics and claim the Dell is not customer overclocked, and therefore is technically running to Dell's stock configuration, but they readily admit to overclocking the Intel CPU in their factory.

You still don't understand how simple the definition of overclocking is, or you are being deliberately stubborn to justify Apple's previous actions.

What Yonzie said: Overclocking is overclocking. Period.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Eugene You still don't understand how simple the definition of overclocking is, or you are being deliberately stubborn to justify Apple's previous actions.

You still don't understand how simple the process of buying a product is supposed to be, or you are being deliberately stubborn to attack Apple's previous actions.

You are seriously still arguing that it's useful to compare a $800 self-built machine with cheapo components, at least one of them running outside its spec, to a $3k machine with professionally-tested components? Be my guest, but don't complain about me shaking my head in incredulity.

[Eugene]

Once again, what the hell does overclocking have to do with buying a product?

Back to the car analogy. If I buy a supercharged Ford Mustang from Shelby, is it a Mustang with a stock engine to you?

Guy 1: "I just bought this awesome Dell with a QX6700."
Guy 2: "Oh hey I have a QX6700 and love it."
Guy 1: "Yeah, it's running at 3.46 GHz."
Guy 2: "Wait, mine runs at 3 GHz, did you overclock it?"
Guy 1: "No it's running at stock Dell XPS 720 H2C speeds!"
Guy 2: "You're an idiot."

Each part I listed receives excellent marks for quality/finish and are actually on the high side of retail prices, so stop saying my PC is made of cheapo components...I could have gone even cheaper. The comparison (not overclocked) is perfectly valid because Apple has no similar offering.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Eugene Guy 1: "I just bought this awesome Dell with a QX6700."

Realistic Guy 2: "WTF is a QXwhateveryoujustsaid, and why should I care?"

Each part I listed receives excellent marks for quality/finish and are actually on the high side of retail prices, so stop saying my PC is made of cheapo components...I could have gone even cheaper. The comparison (not overclocked) is perfectly valid because Apple has no similar offering.

You lost that argument when you used a mainboard that doesn't even support two CPUs.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by chucker Realistic Guy 2: "WTF is a QXwhateveryoujustsaid, and why should I care?"

The customer's ignorance doesn't have any effect on whether Dell augmented an Intel programmed CPU to run at ~15% over it's stock clockrate.

Originally Posted by chucker You lost that argument when you used a mainboard that doesn't even support two CPUs.

And one that doesn't support 32 GB of RAM?