[Doxxic]

My personal opinion is: no.

iTunes Store is profitable and fairly priced.

The same holds obviously for the iPod.

People will keep preferring iPods over other MP3 players anyway.
And everyone with an iPod will use iTunes, so they will tend to buy their music at the iTunes store, if they buy it online at all.

And don't forget the negotiation power the Store is giving Apple. They can't let that go.

[dazwan]

I doubt it will make much difference to sales TBH, if you looked hard enough I'm sure you could find most of what you want online for free. The biggest hurdle will be convincing the music labels to allow their music to be sold non-DRM in France.

Hopefully this will pave the way to make the record industry drop DRM worldwide as they realise it makes no difference to sales (hopefully online sales will increase as people realise they are free to use their music as they please and lots of heads will roll at the labels for forcing us to put up with this nonsense)

[Doxxic]

Originally Posted by dazwan I doubt it will make much difference to sales TBH, if you looked hard enough I'm sure you could find most of what you want online for free. The biggest hurdle will be convincing the music labels to allow their music to be sold non-DRM in France. Hopefully this will pave the way to make the record industry drop DRM worldwide as they realise it makes no difference to sales (hopefully online sales will increase as people realise they are free to use their music as they please and lots of heads will roll at the labels for forcing us to put up with this nonsense)

You're right - I forgot the music labels for a moment. They might become less interested in selling their music via Apple. Oh wait - the law applies to all online music stores.

You know what? I think at first it's a bitter pill for the record labels, but in the end, they'll sell only more music, instead of less.

[Barto]

No (just a guess).

I'm guessing Apple would be more than willing to sell music without DRM than no music at all (although I'm sure they'd prefer DRM'd, tied to your iPod music).

If it did happen and Apple shut down itunes.fr it would probably be the record labels and not Apple (the record labels' contracts with Apple specify Apple must sell music with DRM).

[Doxxic]

Originally Posted by Barto (the record labels' contracts with Apple specify Apple must sell music with DRM).

Seems a rather critical argument. If this is true, which it probably is, Apple has to shut it down, right? Or at least it's in the record labels' hands...

[scratt]

Yep it will mean that the iTunes store will close.
They will not be able to distribute the current library they have without DRM in France alone, nor will Apple want to.

I actually think this won't make it to law in France as it is a stupid, and I think politcally motivated attention grabber from certain people in French politics.

But if it did I think Apple won't give two hoots. It will make the iPod and iTunes music a grey import (of sorts) and consequently more chic and desirable.

[Doxxic]

Ok then assume Apple would shut it down. What would the record labels do? It would cost them revenue, wouldn't it? Wouldn't they start new negotiations? Try to get something from Apple in exchange for selling the music without DRM?

I mean, DRM is a joke anyway... as long as the same music appears on cd... hmmm... ok so maybe DRM won't be that much of a joke for very long...

[Hobbes]

It's a fascinating ruling. Strangely, both presciently proactive (that is, rightly cautious about letting a single company be a gatekeeper for media) and totally clueless (not a fricking idea how to enforce a solution).

I think Apple will keep the ITMS running, and attempt to drag the thing out by fighting it in court. If they lose, they'll continue selling iPods but shut the ITMS in France. Licensing FairPlay would be a support migraine, and dropping DRM is not acceptable to the record companies. Both would undermine Apple's position in other countries.

Either way, though, it's a big headache for Apple.

[Doxxic]

On the other hand, if Rec Labels won't sell music without DRM online via iTunes, they won't do it via the competition either.

France will become a country with no online music stores (or maybe only with payment via PayPal - an option for Apple?)

It's that simple. And maybe not particularly bad for Apple's position, compared to other online music distributors.

French iPod users will exclusively play ripped and pirated MP3s, until Rec Companies allow selling DRM free music online. Whenever that may be....

[scratt]

Doxxic & Hobbes, I think your last posts sum up very nicely why this latest situation / decision in France is silly, and will not fly...

[MINK]

i don't have any insider knowledge of apple, but i do work in the music industry and i can tell you DRM is on shaky ground in the boardroom since the whole "sony rootkit" thing.... and now the "playsforsure" battery life thing, and the delays to bluray and hddvd and all that....

it's a slow process, but eventually they will forget about it and realise they can make more money without DRM. money always wins.

[in8]

I think this law is absolutely brilliant. It clearly is the best thing for the consumers but i personally think apple will shut down iTunes france.

I do agree however that if people outside of france really want DRM free music they can get it other places. I just can't see apple parting with their baby.

Overall I think DRM is a huge hinderence to technological innovation and is a rediculous concept. I love the analogy I heard about DRM:

"Its like buying a lawn mower from home depot and then being told you can only use it on wednesdays and fridays...."

'nuff said

[kaseyha]

I don’t think Apple will close the French iTunes store.

I have seen an argument, floating on the web somewhere that I can’t find right now, that Apple is already complying with the new law by allowing people to burn copies of purchased music and then rip it free of DRM. The question is whether this meets the French requirement of being easy/convenient.

I also think that Apple could easily comply by licensing the DRM so that iTunes purchased music could play on any player whose manufacturer had licensed Apple’s DRM. This would open up iTunes without removing the DRM that the record labels are still requiring.

[Hobbes]

Yes, but I suspect that Apple will not want to open up FairPlay, as there's no real way to contain the licensing just to France. (And in fact, some of the councilmen who passed the law are promising to try to push this law to the EU.) That's the real problem. So, instead, I think Apple will either try to fight it in court or quickly shut down iTMS for France (or try to work out some kind of compromise if at all possible).

And no, iTunes allowing users to burn unprotected CDs won't satisfy the French law. It explicitly commands that DRM'd files must work with any DA player.

[thegelding]

http://www.forbes.com/markets/commod...markets15.html


forbes thinks apple will cut out selling in france

g

[Hobbes]

Or rather, an analyst at Piper Jaffray.

Definitely a tricky balancing act for Apple. It'll be interesting to see how they handle it.

[sirnick4]

Man, I'm really hungry for some liberty fries right now..

[doublem9876]

Let's think about this- is France really the country that Apple would want to give the most priviliges to? I didn't think so. If Apple got rid of the DRM in France, they would have to do it for America and every other country. Since they obviously don't want to do this for America, I suspect they will cut the iTunes store from France, or come up with some ingenious Apple idea to find a way around this.

[Barto]

Apple has a few options.

1) Sell music in France without DRM
2) License FairPlay to other companies (Samsung, Creative etc)
3) Distribute a tool that converts .m4p files to protected .wma files
4) Stop selling music in France

Option 1 is impossible due to their contracts with the labels. In the event Apple chose option 2 or 3 it would be very unlikely they'd be able to limit it to France - no way is Apple going to give up their iPod/iTunes bullshit monopoly anytime soon.

The labels aren't going to change the contract either - they are obsessed with DRM and they will push hard for 2 or 3 (they *hate* Apple's closed system).

So I've changed my mind. No way is Apple going to keep selling music in France.

[kaseyha]

Give up on an entire existing market? No way, terrible business decision from both financial and perception points of view. They cannot allow themselves to be the bad guy, if they stop selling music in France after the spin the French government has put on this law, Apple will look like the evil record label lackey. If they stop selling music in France, their sales of iPods will go down. They need to find a long-term solution to this, and IMHO the best long-term solution is licensing FairPlay. Maybe they'll come up with some typically Apple solution, but I just cannpt see them exiting a market, especially one tied to the EU.

[Doxxic]

Originally Posted by MINK i don't have any insider knowledge of apple, but i do work in the music industry and i can tell you DRM is on shaky ground in the boardroom since the whole "sony rootkit" thing.... and now the "playsforsure" battery life thing, and the delays to bluray and hddvd and all that.... it's a slow process, but eventually they will forget about it and realise they can make more money without DRM. money always wins.

You know, that's exactly what I'd expect, because it's the only way to fight piracy.

The only thing is that until now we have seen a music business being really obsessed about DRM.

Hopefully, in the end, the French government might be helping everyone a lot (they understand a lot more about freedom than some want to accept - I think there are few other countries in the world where individual freedom is as much of a commonly shared concern).

I hope that the music industries *allow Apple and their competitors to sell music without DRM in France for 6 months, evaluate it, and only then make a decision*.

[Baron Munchausen]

I am more interested in this :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4828336.stm

Which is a story and link to a 17min presentation on the BBCs iMP P2P and streaming content service. Alas, he does it with that gawky nerd Gates and on Vista, but seeing as this service is due out in 2006, it might well be on Apple first :-)

HD content, 7 days for free if in the UK and other things.

The demo shows Vista as bulky and uninspiring.

[copland]

I think Apple will at first handle it the Microsoft way; drag your feet - take it to court - drag your feet again.
As months-years go by they can watch what other countries are going to do. If other contries follow France, Apple is not going to pull out of all markets (no ipod anymore!).
Another interesting implication will be, what does this law meen to other "DRM'ed" files; DVD region encoding, proprietory file formats ...

[Ebby]

What kind of message is Apple sending if they would rather pack up and leave rather than work out some solution. I see Apple is caught between a rock and a hard place, and the RIAA... well, you know my opinion about them, but a accept-us-or-STFU attitude is the worst thing to happen in the long run. That would just fuel the fire raging against DRM and prove to the world DRM hurts customers.

[scratt]

What most of you seem to be missing is that this is not law yet. Nor is it likely to become law in it's current state. And, heck if Apple did just up and pull out of the French market, which is tiny for them, they would gain more mileage out of it than staying, and probably stop this kind of thing from happening elsewhere.

The big record companies will not support any other means of distributing media electronically without learning a lot of lessons, and people in the street voting with their wallets. This will happen in time, but for now if France do go ahead with this plan they will become a society with no legal way of downloading music, period! That won't last, and is not sustainable. In short it's nonsense, like the new law.

I am not a fan of DRM. Unfortunately it's here for some time to come. What we do need to do is we need to educate people like the RIAA that there are other ways to distribute, and that P2P destroying their market share is a myth.

For now, creating laws or taking stands to block DRM will just make manufacturers, and distributers dig their heels in. IMHO

[Doxxic]

Originally Posted by scratt What most of you seem to be missing is that this is not law yet. Nor is it likely to become law in it's current state.

Then what exactly happened in France yesterday? I was actually wondering when the law would be effectuated...

[Doxxic]

Here Apple goes...

Apple says proposed French law smacks of piracy (Reuters)

Note that Apple claims that iPods will only sell better, because it will be easier to copy songs and movies without DRM...

I read this as: "Apple won't be hurt that much, but if our partners in the Music and Movie Industry don't put a hell of a pressure on the French government, they'll be in big, big trouble. And that's not Apple's fault - we did what we could by immediately saying publicly that the law would enforce piracy...".

Basically, Apple is telling the Content Industry that they are between a rock and a hard place... and Apple is on their side.

[scratt]

It was passed by the Lower House.. I don't know the exact procedure for laws being passed in France well enough to explain it here. But suffice it to say it has to be retified by a higher power, much like the House of Lords on the UK, or the equivalent in the US.

Often, laws are knocked back for ammendment, before passage, by many of these higher governmental bodies..

[Doxxic]

Just another thought - could it be that, even though contracts with record companies compell Apple to sell their music with DRM, this can be overruled by local legislation?

This could mean that from a legal viewpoint, Apple at least has the option to sell songs without DRM in France...

[Tom the Piper's son]

Originally Posted by scratt It was passed by the Lower House.. I don't know the exact procedure for laws being passed in France well enough to explain it here. But suffice it to say it has to be retified by a higher power, much like the House of Lords on the UK, or the equivalent in the US. Often, laws are knocked back for ammendment, before passage, by many of these higher governmental bodies..

Yes, it still has to go through the "Senat"... I can't see any difficulties there, as France is massively involved in crushing illegal downloading... and although DRM and iTunes/iPods are no way a means of downloading, as the average age of French "Senateurs" must be between 60 and 70... they are not known to support new equipment/formats which are marginally linked to people illegally downloading music...
May I precise that a dozen or so French Internet downloaders have been sentenced to several months of imprisonnement and fined several hundred thousand Euros...
The French music industry has now lobbied the government and both the Lower and the Upper House...
The question is whether the current government will go through and "publish" the Bill... so many parliamentary bills never get "published" in France!

Historically, France has always been an Apple stronghold and DSL at home has been booming in France for the last couple of years... with several operators offering access to wideband for a mere EUR 30 a month... I don't know how Apple can pull out of "iTunes.fr" though, because it was doing so well!