[Chinney]

The EPA gas mileage for the Fiesta is 27/37 city/highway. Those EPA estimates tend to be optimistic.

[Kickaha]

Yeah, I have a Chevy Tahoe. No way in hell does it get 25mpg freeway. kscherer, you sure you weren't computing in liters?

[addison]

Originally Posted by kscherer I get those numbers from owning and driving the cars. Keep in mind those are freeway numbers, not city numbers. I owned each of those vehicles for at least four years and kept track of mileage.

You must share your secrets with me! 35 MPG in a Pacifica is crazy. Did you remove the doors and interior?
Are you a hyper miler?
I've had most midsize cars on the market as rentals for work and I'm hard pressed to hit 35 in the highway on most. The best one I've had is an Altima that may have hit 38 mpg.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by Chinney The EPA gas mileage for the Fiesta is 27/37 city/highway. Those EPA estimates tend to be optimistic.

Don't care what the fancy sticker says. Seriously, I don't care. I know what the car does. As of right now, the car is averaging 38mpg, and those are mostly city miles (about 90%). On a road trip, I have no trouble with 50mpg on the freeway.

Originally Posted by Kickaha Yeah, I have a Chevy Tahoe. No way in hell does it get 25mpg freeway. kscherer, you sure you weren't computing in liters?

I'm an American. I have no idea what a liter is!

I drove a 2003 5.7 V8. Here to Portland (430 miles) on a single tank was no trouble (a typical fill-up was in Hood River about 60 miles this side of Portland, with 1/4 tank remaining after 370 miles of driving). I averaged 19mpg in that thing (mostly city miles). The fuel tank was 25 gallons, but about three or four of those don't show on the gauge. Typically saw 23-25mpg on the way to Portland (downhill) and 20 back (uphill). Going over the Blue Mountains always ate away at the average. Just no way to get a Tahoe up a hill on a light throttle.

On a nice, easy, flat straightaway, a Tahoe will get 25mpg at 70mph. I get that's a bit unrealistic, but it will do it. Considering the freeway from here to Portland is mostly nice, easy, flat straightaway, I got quite good mileage. I assume you're in Seattle? There isn't any nice, easy flat straightaway over there (not until you get over the mountains, or maybe between Tacoma and Portland. But those aren't "highway miles", they're high-speed commuting miles. Lots of braking and accelerating.

Originally Posted by addison You must share your secrets with me! 35 MPG in a Pacifica is crazy. Did you remove the doors and interior? Are you a hyper miler? I've had most midsize cars on the market as rentals for work and I'm hard pressed to hit 35 in the highway on most. The best one I've had is an Altima that may have hit 38 mpg.

Most Americans are lead-footed, but don't realize it. They think they drive all sippy-toed, when in reality they are quite heavy on the gas. Because gas is cheap, here, we don't put much thought into the way we drive. Whether on the freeway or in the city, we like to "gun it". We're heavy on the gas in the corners, we're heavy uphill, we're heavy while overtaking, heavier still when a pretty girl needs some showing off. We drive our cars very poorly.

I tend to use the cruise control when the going is easy, and switch to manual in the hills (cruise is stupidly inefficient when the drivetrain has to shift a lot). Once up to speed, it is critical to maintain that constant. Gasoline engines have to work very hard to get the car to speed, then surprisingly easy once there. Braking robs the car of momentum, and the engine has to work very hard to get back up to speed. A constant, uninterrupted speed is the key to good freeway mileage (or any mileage for that matter). This means coasting downhill (most Americans jam on the brakes in the downhill corners, then gun it to get back up to speed, robbing the car of momentum and efficiency). Uphill, we want to be the fastest guy to the top (no way the guy in the Vette is beating my Camry to the top of this hill!).

Slow down. Don't be so heavy on the gas. Don't rush up to the light (a massive sucker of gas); coast up there and you might find things are moving before you get there, which means the engine has to work less hard to regain momentum. Don't power up the mountains, and let off the gas going down. A Prius makes its mileage through regenerative breaking. Prius drives talk much about having to lear how to drive all over again. They learn to lay off the brakes, coast to a stop so the car's forward motion can be converted into electrical power. My boss grumbled that it took months to relearn. Brakes convert forward motion into heat, and that motion has to be regenerated by the engine, which uses gas. Heavy brakers get bad mileage!

—

I have never owned a car whose stated mileage could not be beaten—soundly—with smart driving.

For some additional tips, Top Gear has done several MPG shows to demonstrate how cars function under different driving conditions. In one episode, a BMW M5 is shown soundly besting a Prius in MPG around the track. When the M5 is driven flat-out, it cannot compete. However, when the Prius is driven flat-out and the M5 is relaxed, the BMW gets better mileage. Their conclusion? It's all in how you drive the car. In another episode, the three hosts select three cars and "race" from Southern France to London. The rules are simple: You can only fill the tank once—at the beginning of the trip. All three cars made the trip (mostly, at least within a few miles) on a single tank. It was all about choosing the best route, maintaining momentum, avoiding braking, and (most importantly) throttle management.

All of these cars can be nursed into excellent (better than stated) mileage with smart driving. However, for most Americans, "smart driving" is impossible considering the sucky habits we are taught from day one; overly competitive commuting habits; showing off; and low fuel costs. Once you grow into reduced income constraints and have to find ways to save money, a smart driver recognizes fuel costs as a prime contributor to failed budgets, and takes steps to change that. I stopped rushing lights, I stopped accelerating like a racer, I stopped weaving through traffic, I stopped gunning on the hills and jamming the breaks down the other side. I stopped all that crap and my cars not only get better MPG, they also last longer, saving money on all ends.

Slow down and take your time. You'll find you get to where you're going just as fast, but a little less stressed.

Oh, and gas up using regular gas, not that alcohol-infused crap. Maybe that's a contributor to my better numbers? We gas up at the local Phillips 66 where they use real gasoline, which contributes to better mileage.

[kscherer]

Just for giggles, I went out to the Fiesta and had a quick look at the trip computer, which is showing an average 35.7mpg. The last road trip was back in September, so it's been 6 months since the car was really "on the freeway" (although the kid is on the freeway everyday commuting to school). That's about 600 miles per month, plus another 200 for shopping and other such, and roughly a hundred misc. miles. We'll call it 900 miles per month. We fill up at roughly half a tank (5 gallons-ish) once per week. All things considered, that shows around 35mpg commuting, which is roughly what the trip computer is showing.

About half the kid's commute is on the freeway (going against traffic, so little competition on the road). That would all sit fine with the 27/37 numbers. However, those are all commuting miles. Lots of lights and stop signs, braking, accelerating, etc., which leads me to believe that the sticker numbers indicate highway testing is closer to "commuter highway" than "open freeway with nothing in sight". Considering that, during last year's road trip, the trip computer showed a range of 500+ miles on a 10-gallon tank (and did it), I have no way to reconcile other than A) the sticker numbers are off by a mile, or B) I am able to coax better mileage than the average driver. As stated above, we use real gas, which is proven to deliver better mileage than the crap they use for testing, and that most people use in their real cars.

Interestingly, I get better mileage on road trips than my boss (who drives a Prius), but he gets better mileage in town. His Prius is averaging something like 41 in the city, where I am getting 35. However, out on the highway his mileage drops while mine skyrockets. Basically, the Prius loses its regenerative braking advantage and the mpg tanks (I can only reconcile this by assuming the Prius has a weak engine that struggles to maintain freeway speed). Which I like to rib him about. His Prius cost $27000 or so, while my Focus cost $14000.

[PB PM]

Official fuel ratings are nothing short of a joke. It totally depends on how you drive the car, and temperature can also affects fuel consumption. My Camry Hybrid is rated for 6.5L/100k (35MPG) (Canadian DOT Rating) both highway and city. I usually get 6.2L/100 (38MPG) winter and 6.0L/100km (40MPG) or better the rest of the year. My driving is close to 50/50 city and highway. Then again I'm not a led footed driver and I coast up to reds on battery whenever possible.

Speaking of the Prius, my brother in law drives a 2007, and tends to get 5.0L/100 (47MPG) with a combo of city and freeway driving. Again, totally depends on the driver, and the route.

[Eugene]

I can get over 60mpg with a 328d on the freeway by going into 8th gear gear and keeping the engine at 1500RPM. This puts me around 58mph in most cases, which is usually the flow of traffic in the right-most lane. I can get 45mpg with a 328i doing the same thing.

[alcimedes]

One thing I'd say to keep in mind here, is that by all accounts, the gigafactory that Tesla is building is going to be WAY too big for their own companies orders. My understanding behind the battery factory and Tesla's open patents is to create MORE competition within the electric car space, not to try and wipe it out.

I don't think Tesla cares if they sell 100k cars or 300k cars. What they really care about is have they shifted the consumer vehicle market forward towards electric, and Id' have to say that based on these pre-orders, that's a done deal.

What Tesla has really accomplished here is the original 'iPhone' for this generation's electric cars. It's got all the features you want, some you couldn't even hope for, and it's priced where you'd expect, or even lower.

Every other car Manf. is going to have to respond with something that looks as good or is better, and they've got a ticking clock over their heads before Tesla's hits the market.

I think this is an absolute win for consumers all the way around, and its going to shake up the car manufacturing industry.


edit: I removed the pointless posts earlier up.

[kscherer]

In one market segment, yes. The cat is definitely out of the bag.

Below that segment, though, where most car buyers are, there's still work to be done. If Tesla is planning to make batteries for everyone, then I can see Ford, Hyundai, Chevy et al getting into the low-end segment pretty quickly.

Speaking of batteries, the industry is also going to have to figure out how to safely recycle billions of those things or in about ten years there is going to be a monster argument.

[Luca]

Originally Posted by kscherer [long post]

TL;DR: Try to use both pedals as little as possible.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by kscherer Speaking of batteries, the industry is also going to have to figure out how to safely recycle billions of those things or in about ten years there is going to be a monster argument.

Dealing with batteries is an issue, but in many cases they can be recycled and sold as refurbished. Most of the "dead" batteries from cars are not really dead and can still be used for other purposes that don't have the same draw demands. There are already several companies set up to do this for Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Hyundai (and others) hybrid batteries.

Originally Posted by Eugene I can get over 60mpg with a 328d on the freeway by going into 8th gear gear and keeping the engine at 1500RPM. This puts me around 58mph in most cases, which is usually the flow of traffic in the right-most lane. I can get 45mpg with a 328i doing the same thing.

Not bad for a car with a combined rating of 35MPG (2016 model). You must have some very flat freeway to run that thing on. BMW's are designed to run on the autobahn, that is no surprise to me! What's the city miles? I'm asking out of purely out of curiosity.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by PB PM Dealing with batteries is an issue, but in many cases they can be recycled and sold as refurbished. Most of the "dead" batteries from cars are not really dead and can still be used for other purposes that don't have the same draw demands. There are already several companies set up to do this for Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Hyundai (and others) hybrid batteries.

If only Tesla was thinking ahead and had an outlet for using said refurb batteries in installations that have different charge/draw cycles...

Oh yeah, PowerWalls.

[Chinney]

Getting back to the original issue of this thread, I think that there is still room for Apple, and other companies, to make their own practical and affordable electric cars. Tesla has a lead, but technology leads don't necessarily last. And there is not a lot secret about what Tesla is doing. That is deliberate - Musk wants other companies to join in to help gather the momentum of technological and market change.

That said, I am not convinced that Apple will be one of those who decide to enter the market. I tend to think that the one or more of the other auto makers will get fully serious about electric technology (none other than Tesla is fully on board yet) and open up the market. As for Apple, as others have said, I think that they will find that developing automobile manufacturing, sales and maintenance infrastructure is too far outside their comfort zone. I would love to see an Apple car, but I am not convinced that it is going to happen. And it does not have to happen for electric cars to be a success.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by PB PM Not bad for a car with a combined rating of 35MPG (2016 model). You must have some very flat freeway to run that thing on. BMW's are designed to run on the autobahn, that is no surprise to me! What's the city miles? I'm asking out of purely out of curiosity.

Most of my freeway driving is on US 101, which is flat, mostly straight and at sea-level. The 328d gets ~40mpg if I game it a little. I'm guessing a 328i is going to be closer to 28-29mpg. This includes being stuck in traffic, using engine auto-start/stop and driving in ECO Pro mode.

--

Like Chinney, I think the transition to electric is an opening for new players. Tesla has a technological head-start. Traditional auto-makers have cachet, experience and manufacturing infrastructure. Apple has money and knows that the next big thing that will really have an impact on our lives isn't VR, augmented reality, a smart ring or some other wearable. It's automation in the home and on the road.

I think Apple goes in big.

[alcimedes]

I don't know that I see Apple selling an 'Apple' car either. That's so far out of their wheelhouse.

I could see an Apple in-car entertainment OS though, or something that gets slapped over another car manf. hardware. Just the physical reality of an auto making plant alone should poke huge holes in the idea that Apple is planning on selling a physical car.

That would be a huge capital investment which would be easy to follow.

No, I think Tesla is trying to sell the entire car market on their batteries, and I'd suspect Apple is going to try and sell the entire electric car market on their vehicle specific UI.

The task of dominating the entire auto industry would be too much for either company (IMO), but I could easily see Tesla owning the batteries used for said cars, and Apple making huge headway in how people interact with their cars.

[Eugene]

Apple has at this point, close to $250B in cash that is being wasted by not being reinvested (in themselves via buyback) or by enticing shareholders with dividends. The cost of building a plant would be in the vicinity of $1B. Not pennies, but Apple's got plenty of capital to take it on.

[709]

Originally Posted by alcimedes No, I think Tesla is trying to sell the entire car market on their batteries, and I'd suspect Apple is going to try and sell the entire electric car market on their vehicle specific UI.

This.

[zippy]

I'm in the camp that still feels Apple can, and will meaningfully compete in the electric automobile space. I don't buy the argument that they are too late to the game. Tesla is the only one doing electric cars that can totally replace ICE at this time (others are just too short on range and re-charge specs) and look how slow their ramp up has been/will be. I also don't automatically assume that whatever Apple offers will be high-priced/luxury. It very well could be, ala something like the iPhone entry was to phones/smart phones. Or maybe it could shock people with it's affordability ala the iPad debut.

I think Apple has enough history in both the higher-end-only segments (computers) and wide-market-appeal segments (iPod and now kinda iPhone) that it is hard to pigeon-hole them any more. I would not expect anything in the sub $30,000 market, but I could easily see them offer a car to compete with the Model 3. I hope they do. The more companies we have that offer electric-only vehicles, the better. I just don't trust the old guard auto makers to push the tech forward on their own. Tesla, Google, Apple, Faraday... I hope they all keep helping to move us forward in this regard.

[Luca]

I found an Apple car prototype being charged:

[zippy]

As much as I think the criticism on that design for the mouse is overblown... That is funny!

[kscherer]

I'm LOL-ing all over the place.

By the way, the criticism is due. It's a stupid design, which is why the car joke is so damn funny!

[709]

Prediction: Elon Musk joins Apple as joint-?. Cook admits he's better at beans, welcomes it. Shuler intact, he's fine. Cue gone, thankfully.

I had a weird dream.

[Luca]

Elon Musk is out of Apple's league. Apple is now a consumer gadget company and they're not innovative anymore, and the level of innovation and excitement in the entire industry has been decreasing the past several years.

Musk wants to put people on Mars in 8 years. Of all the people in the world who could make that claim, I'm most inclined to believe him. If we're going to have a revolution in transportation, he'd be the guy to make it happen. Computers? They're basically good enough now.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by Luca Computers? They're basically good enough now.

we're heard that before, and before that too.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Luca Computers? They're basically good enough now.

"64.0GB is enough for anybody!"