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Jony Ive is leaving Apple!


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Jony Ive is leaving Apple!
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2019-07-04, 13:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
I still think they're gunning for all touch-based virtual keyboards (as in Touch Bar but full surface).
Please just kill me now and put me out of my misery.

I love a lot of Apple's software and its well-integrated ecosystem, but I still hate the feel of recent MacBook Pros (I'm clutching desperately to a pair of 2015 MBPs both for personal use and for my day job), and having an all-virtual keyboard on a not-pocket-sized daily driver would probably be my final straw.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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chucker
 
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2019-07-04, 13:14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
Please just kill me now and put me out of my misery.

I love a lot of Apple's software and its well-integrated ecosystem, but I still hate the feel of recent MacBook Pros (I'm clutching desperately to a pair of 2015 MBPs both for personal use and for my day job), and having an all-virtual keyboard on a not-pocket-sized daily driver would probably be my final straw.
OMG this

(But I also don’t think this is happening. Smart Connector / iPad Pro is evidence that they firmly believe physical keys have a future.)
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PB PM
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2019-07-04, 22:35

Touch screen keyboard for a desktop computer or notebook is just insane. Even with haptic feedback you'd have to be looking at the keyboard constantly.
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chucker
 
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2019-07-05, 03:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Touch screen keyboard for a desktop computer or notebook is just insane. Even with haptic feedback you'd have to be looking at the keyboard constantly.
I'm still hoping for Touch Bar 2 with Taptic Engine. I still haven't actually played with the Touch Bar in practice, but I imagine this would improve it a lot.

(Tapping buttons on it will never be as good as pressing physical keys, but OTOH, it offers sliders and other affordances that a physical keyboard never could.)
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drewprops
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2019-07-05, 15:19

I'm hoping that we see a sensible return to mechanical elements WHEN that is the better solution.



...
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PB PM
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2019-07-05, 20:58

There are some nice low profile mechanical switches out there now, the question is are people willing to pay for it? I would expect the price of a MacBook Pro with those switches to jump at least $200.
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Dave
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2019-07-06, 22:53

I only hope this means Apple will start departing from their “form-over-function” design WRT the “thin & light at all costs” trend that they started.
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drewprops
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2019-07-09, 05:58

The Verge is suggesting that there is a move afoot to position Apple's COO Jeff Williams as Jony's in-house replacement and possibly heir apparent to the CEO position. Or is somebody just trying to rock the boat?

https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/9/20...ory-steve-jobs



...
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chucker
 
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2019-07-09, 06:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
The Verge is suggesting that there is a move afoot to position Apple's COO Jeff Williams as Jony's in-house replacement and possibly heir apparent to the CEO position. Or is somebody just trying to rock the boat?

https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/9/20...ory-steve-jobs



...
I don't think it has to be an either or.

As long as Tim stays, Jeff can essentially be the products guy. He seems to be doing an OK job at that with the Watch. (He's been doing the Watch hardware and health/fitness announcements for a few years, including more esoteric stuff like ResearchKit/CareKit.)

But if Tim should leave, it also seems Jeff would do fine heading the company.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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2019-07-09, 22:15

So I never posted about my thoughts on this and so I figure I'll do it now while I'm thinking about it.

I'm glad to see him go. Sure he helped design some great products and forced some great engineering to make some of those things happen. He's also the one who removed all my ports and think I want everything minimal with the exception of my cheese grater.

I hate camera bumps and would rather my phone be thicker with a bigger battery.

I miss having an SD card reader since a normal SD -> USB A -> USB C dongle hell is so much sexier than a slit in the side of the machine.

I miss the indicator for my MBP's battery on the side of the machine.

The glowing Apple logo on the back of the screen of my MBP.

I could go on and on but will just say that I hope we get some great products that provide solid functionality while maintaining great design.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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PKIDelirium
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2019-07-10, 01:49

I don’t mind the camera bump on my 7 or how they are on the current X models, but the apparent design for this years model looks hideous. Even with a case like mine that protrudes to keep the back of the phone flat, that’s still gonna look wonky.

I’d like to see the SD slot return to the MBP since it was apparently removed primarily for “aesthetics” rather than space.

I think his departure now is a good thing, they’ve been running on his MUST BE RAZOR THIN BECAUSE THIN method that he seemed to get stuck on for too long at this point.

Early '09 Mac mini (El Capitan), iPhone 7 (iOS 12.3), iPad Air 2 (iOS 12.3), Mid '10 MacBook Unibody (High Sierra), Mid '05 14" iBook G4 (Tiger)
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chucker
 
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2019-07-10, 04:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by PKIDelirium View Post
I don’t mind the camera bump on my 7 or how they are on the current X models, but the apparent design for this years model looks hideous. Even with a case like mine that protrudes to keep the back of the phone flat, that’s still gonna look wonky.
It's funny. I find the new square design, if true, less annoying to look at than the current iPhone 6-style small circle. It's… more uniform, I guess?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PKIDelirium View Post
I think his departure now is a good thing, they’ve been running on his MUST BE RAZOR THIN BECAUSE THIN method that he seemed to get stuck on for too long at this point.
Yup. It's strange. In the 90s, he seemed to have a much more varied take. 20th Anniversary Mac, colorful translucent iMac, colored aluminum iPod minis, whathaveyou. Now it's all thin thin thin flat aluminum+glass.

Change is good here.
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turtle
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2019-07-10, 07:28

I hadn't really thought about the door thing but you know, that's one of the things that made a Mac stand out in the early days. They moved from beige to the all sorts and stood out. Not they are just another notebook that people can easily photoshop the logo off of an no one know what computer model is on the screen.

While I don't expect to see the Key Lime clamshell again, real color options would be nice.

Edit: Since these were just announced I kinda had to add them to the post. I know these are focused on kids, but colors!

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.

Last edited by turtle : 2019-07-10 at 07:49.
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chucker
 
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2019-07-10, 08:27

I mean.



Doesn't have to be bubbly translucent plastic. Can be rather elegant-looking.
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turtle
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2019-07-10, 08:32

True...but those are all dead. Grey and silver are our options if we want something with a current high end processor. Gold if you look at iPhone XS. What if I want color and high end?

That's something I hope gets remedied. Sure some would rather basic black, grey or sliver. Many would like the options to buy colors. I always went for (Red) myself because I liked their tone for it.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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chucker
 
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2019-07-10, 09:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
True...but those are all dead. Grey and silver are our options if we want something with a current high end processor. Gold if you look at iPhone XS. What if I want color and high end?

That's something I hope gets remedied. Sure some would rather basic black, grey or sliver. Many would like the options to buy colors. I always went for (Red) myself because I liked their tone for it.
That's really my point.

We're seeing some of that on the XR, but I'd really like it on the XS and the MacBooks.
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zippy
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2019-07-10, 11:01

I agree that colors would be nice. But adding back things like SD card and user replaceable RAM/SSD would be my biggest hope. I’m not sure how much the soldering in of RAM is due to Ive’s obsession with thinness though so maybe its not connected enough to be a possibility.

Do you know where children get all of their energy? - They suck it right out of their parents!
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turtle
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2019-07-10, 12:24

I think soldering things to the motherboard is part of making it thin more than any other reason. No port space and air gap between the chips and the mainboard mean thinner.

Plus, that would fit with Apple's desire to keep you from working on your machine anymore. The consumable laptop.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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chucker
 
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2019-07-10, 12:39

It comes with other benefits — it significantly reduces moving parts (and thus wear and tear) and therefore improves reliability, particularly with portable devices.

I wonder if Ive's departure gives Lisa Jackson some more power, though. She might have a thing or two to say on the environmental cost of hard-to-replace components…
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
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2019-07-10, 12:54

That's so true. I would rather be able to replace and upgrade my own RAM or read an SD card though.
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chucker
 
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2019-07-10, 13:09

I still have my 2002 iBook around. It shipped with 128 MB RAM and a 20 GB hard drive. I immediately upgraded that to 384 MB RAM (gasp!), and later on to 640. I replaced and upgraded the hard drive several times, which was both a blessing and a curse (hella unreliable).

Likewise, I upgrade my MacBook Pro from 1 to 2 Gigs after that. And the one after from 4 to 8 (and from a 320 GB HDD to a 512 GB SSD! Woah!).

It was a real bummer that my rMBP didn't let me do any of that. And there is a certain cynical "I guess Apple wants me to buy a new one instead" aspect to it, no doubt.
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turtle
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2019-07-10, 13:13

That's the same with me. Every Mac I ever bought had the same thing happen to it after unboxing, opened and upgraded RAM and or HDD/SSD. Even the mini had it's own putty knife set aside for it. My Touch Bar MBP is the first Mac I've never opened. I want to, but iFixIt has good pictures online so I have no need to.

Yeah, disposable computer thoughts are hard to skim over when you're used to upgrading to continue a computer's usefulness.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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kscherer
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2019-07-10, 13:29

Colors may happen, but RAM slots in laptops are likely gone for good. There are more reasons than just "thin". A regular fail point we see in service were those slots. People might say, "but if my RAM fails …". Well, cards fail more often than soldered-in RAM. The chance of shorting out is far less likely. Granted, the repair for failed RAM is significantly higher, now, due to the need for logic board replacement, and that is no good. But, we see far less trouble with RAM now that it can't move around. Reliability is a real thing! That reliability factor also covers mechanical hard drives, CD drives, and every single port, especially if they are used often (including MagSafe boards, which are regularly damaged by fluid ingress and magnetic attraction of staples, screws, and other metal bits). Apple covers a lot of warranty work and takes note of the things most likely to break. Thin is as much a result of eliminating these failure points as it is a result of "because thin".

SD slots are certainly handy—for some people. Trouble is, "some" is a small percentage. "Most" people never used them. Thus, it was a convenient point of failure useful for only a small segment of the market. In fact, the majority of customers don't even know why they're there, or what they are! Including a port that is used by only a few adds complexity and failure-prone-ness for those who don't care.

So, "thin" is not the only reason. However, it is a reason, and not the best one, although so many people are coming into the shop looking for "thinnest, lightest" that I think "thicker, more batter, ports-O-plenty, please" is also a very small segment of the market. What this tells me is that *most* customers prefer thin and light over ports-O-plenty. And battery is no longer an excuse. These things get way better battery life than anything from just a few years ago; the batteries are more reliable; and they hold a standby charge far longer.

I understand the need to plug in every legacy thing a person might have in their bag, but those days are gone. Buy 1 inexpensive adapter that everything plugs into and keep it around (we carry an $80 thing that has SD, micro-SD, HDMI, USB-C with power pass through, and three USB 3 ports that are very reliable and we sell literally hundreds of them!). Or, hang onto a 5-10 year old computer until you're forced to make a decision.

My personal complaints have more to do with the utter uselessness of iPads (in my life, at least), especially when it comes to word processing and document editing. I'm no fan of some of Apple adapter choices or cabling confusion. I do miss MagSafe—a LOT. Apple should have kept it and simply improved its reliability. I would love to see iCloud become something sort of like reliable. I would encourage them to make iWork collaboration actually work consistently. I would absolutely love for them to get Apple ID login sorted out so that I do not have to type in my password three times! I hate that after a software update I have to log into my Apple ID on the computer, and then again in the App Store, and then again in iTunes, and then again to purchase something, and then again to verify that I just did it four times!

Apple is missing the boat as regards iPods. More people ask for iPod Nanos than iPod touches, but Nanos do not sell stupid, time-wasting games or Apple Music subscriptions, the customer's wishes be damned! Plenty of people want a smaller iPhone. A 15" MacBook Air would sell like mad! A $2000 headless Mac would set the cash register on fire. A $700 4k USB-C display is sorely needed.

I have my complaints, but ports-O-plenty are not one of them.

Who let the creeper in?
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chucker
 
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2019-07-10, 13:55

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
A $700 4k USB-C display is sorely needed.
Ehhhhhh.

The ATP folks (well, except for Casey) discuss displays occasionally, and seem content to spend $1,500 on a 5K display.

Sometimes I wonder what planet they're on.

We spend about $120 on a 24-inch display at work. That won't be 4K, though. $400, maybe $500 would be OK for that. (Right now, Amazon is offering one discounted at $249. Seriously.)

The big problem with those displays for Mac users is that they don't hit the right sweet spot for 2x resolution, but surely solving that isn't worth $700, or $1,500, or $6,000. I'm sorry, it's just not.

Now, Apple clearly isn't interested in the sub-$1k monitor market (nor in the sub-$5,200 market, apparently*), but surely at some point, it's feasible to take a silly 4K @ 21" or 5K @ 27" panel and put it in a reasonably priced monitor? The Retina iMacs have been around for almost half a decade. Panel costs have to have gone down since then.

*) We don't really know this yet for a fact. That they showed off this high-end thing doesn't really preclude them from also showing something lower end when the Mac Pro gets closer to shipping.
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chucker
 
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2019-07-10, 13:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Colors may happen, but RAM slots in laptops are likely gone for good. There are more reasons than just "thin". A regular fail point we see in service were those slots. People might say, "but if my RAM fails …". Well, cards fail more often than soldered-in RAM. The chance of shorting out is far less likely. Granted, the repair for failed RAM is significantly higher, now, due to the need for logic board replacement, and that is no good. But, we see far less trouble with RAM now that it can't move around. Reliability is a real thing! That reliability factor also covers mechanical hard drives, CD drives, and every single port, especially if they are used often (including MagSafe boards, which are regularly damaged by fluid ingress and magnetic attraction of staples, screws, and other metal bits). Apple covers a lot of warranty work and takes note of the things most likely to break. Thin is as much a result of eliminating these failure points as it is a result of "because thin".
This is a good and important case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
SD slots are certainly handy—for some people. Trouble is, "some" is a small percentage. "Most" people never used them. Thus, it was a convenient point of failure useful for only a small segment of the market. In fact, the majority of customers don't even know why they're there, or what they are! Including a port that is used by only a few adds complexity and failure-prone-ness for those who don't care.
…I don't think I can agree with this on a product called "MacBook Pro", though. It's not for "most people"!
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kscherer
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2019-07-10, 14:49

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
This is a good and important case.



…I don't think I can agree with this on a product called "MacBook Pro", though. It's not for "most people"!
That is true, and now more than ever this is the case. Still, I think a cheap, external everything-adapter is less likely to fail than a bunch of ports with easy liquid ingress and solder points that tend to wear out.

Who let the creeper in?
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turtle
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2019-07-10, 14:59

I wouldn't mind an adapter like that one, but does it passthrough 80W or whatever the 15" MBP uses? That seems to be the issue I find with almost every "dock" out there.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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chucker
 
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2019-07-10, 15:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
That is true, and now more than ever this is the case. Still, I think a cheap, external everything-adapter is less likely to fail than a bunch of ports with easy liquid ingress and solder points that tend to wear out.
It's odd that the review says "passes through power for charging" when the datasheet cites a measly 18W. That's nowhere near enough even for smaller MacBooks…

But, yes, at the risk of rehashing the dongletown discussion over and over again:
  • I'm mostly not bothered by this. Buy appropriate adapters and/or docks, and be done.
  • That said, it can lead to painful and embarrassing moments. This is especially true of the HDMI port, I think. You will sooner or later run into a situation where you try to present in a customer's meeting room and… don't have a USB-C-to-HDMI adapter.
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chucker
 
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2019-07-10, 15:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
I wouldn't mind an adapter like that one, but does it passthrough 80W or whatever the 15" MBP uses? That seems to be the issue I find with almost every "dock" out there.
Some of Satechi's do 87W, like this one: https://satechi.net/collections/usb-...nt=34900214729
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Dave
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2019-07-12, 16:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
So, "thin" is not the only reason. However, it is a reason, and not the best one, although so many people are coming into the shop looking for "thinnest, lightest" that I think "thicker, more batter, ports-O-plenty, please" is also a very small segment of the market.
Sure, but seeing as how (as a very general stereotype) the “thinnest & lightest” people tend to ask the “thicker & more ports” people for advice on which hardware to get, and considering that Apple doesn’t allow clones anymore, they’d do well to have a more varied hardware lineup. Or license macOS to other companies who are willing to cater to the techies, non-hipsters, and people who generally care about function over form.

When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream.
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