OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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I think that a lot of people don't even really appreciate that they're absolutely guaranteed to die at some point. We can easily put off our lives thinking it's something that happens in the future, but eventually that future becomes the present, and our time is life. Good idea to start living a meaningful life now so we don't end up like Comic Book Store Guy: "On no, wasted my life". In fact, what he says about life and death is likely based on his Buddhist beliefs. What he said could come right out of dharma talk. One of my favorite quotes is a classic Zen one: "Since death alone is certain, and the time of death uncertain, what are you going to do?" Meditating on the certainty of death in order to realize that one is alive NOW and that we should be doing something with our time is classic Buddhism. So you can have it both ways: this life is precious (especially a human birth) and there are lives after this one (unless we attin Buddhahood). It's funny though: I've often heard it said that Steve is Buddhist, but I've not heard any reference to it from him directly, nor what type of Buddhism he practices... He is a mysterious man! Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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I consider myself as close to being a Buddhist as I am to any religion. It's certainly the closest set of values to my own that I can find in established systems. That and Shintoism. And I love the idea of being reconstituted somehow out of particles every few million years by some bizarre set of probabilities. But then that I suspect is the inherent trait of humans that make us *need* some kind of afterlife / deity / whatever.. Quote:
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Maybe it's a flaw in me, but I am so absolutely certain that there is no god, and no afterlife, and the only possible solution I can find is the possibility of this exact same pattern of a human as me existing many times through sheer chance over the millennia. But I don't believe in a spirit of any sort, so it would simply be a clone. Unaware of my past or present incarnations and simply one of the possible arrangements of particles which would make up this exact same model of a human, and thus give it the exact same characteristics, decision paths etc. That I could believe in simply because there is maths that will prove it as statistically possible, even probable. 'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take' Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt |
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Formerly Roboman, still
awesome Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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I don't know what happens after death, but I really see no reason to believe that anything does. So I don't see the logic in living one's life assuming that there is going to be some form of second life, or eternal bliss, or whatever. My mom has a very weak immune system, so at best her body is only good for another few decades, but she probably won't last that long. I'm sure one of these days she'll be driving down the highway, and she'll be looking at "the nature" off to her side, and the car that she's tailgating at 80 mph will brake, and she won't see it, and her unserviced airbag will fail to deploy and her head will hit the dash and she will end. Justlikethat. It's sad that she will have sacrificed her entire future existence to get a glimpse of a tree, but I think the sadder thing is that she will have never really known herself - she will have never understood why she believed what she believed. She'll never have understood why she rejected all gods except for the one she believed in. She'll never have understood why she loved the man who hit her and hit the kids she loved. Understanding these things was never beyond her mental grasp, but she chose the comfort of dogmatic certainty over intellectual curiosity, and never became truly self-aware. Or at least, she hasn't yet. But I don't think she ever will, to be honest. And that's really quite heartbreaking, because how can you love yourself if you don't even know who you are? How terrible it must be, to go through life not only not knowing why you do the things you do, but not even wanting to know? In a way, it's like she's already dead - or rather, like she's never really lived at all. And she doesn't realize any of this - she just doesn't operate on this level. My dad's the same way, if you trade religious dogma with greed and gambling. My stepdad and stepmom too. I don't really get along with any of them, but to be honest I'm okay with that. If I was all buddy-buddy with any of them, I might never have grown up to be my own person. I'm not trying to brag - I know I'm more than a little damaged. But despite (or because of?) all that, I've learned who I am and why I believe what I believe, and that's something I'm pretty proud of. But anyhoo, back to death. I think about dying a lot. I used to be abso-f'ing-lutely terrified of it, but it doesn't really make sense to be scared of something inevitable. I'm still scared, but I'm now scared of dying before I had a chance to do what I wanted to do in life. There's a cure for this, of course: making sure I'm doing what I want to do in life each day. I think that's the conclusion Jobs came to. You can tell that he genuinely loves what he does, that making beautiful pieces of technology is his way of improving the world. I'm still trying to find mine, but I think I'm getting there. Because you never know, do you? You could be struck by a bus next Tuesday. I could get a hormone imbalance or a rare form of cancer - I could have one now, and not know about it. Something's going to kill me, eventually, and the cure for dying is not to ignore it, be scared of it, or tell yourself it's not the real ending. The cure for dying is to, y'know, live. Anyhoo, I'm off to go do that. Love and good times every buddy <3 <3 and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong |
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OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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Secondly, I don't personally lose respect for people based on their beliefs (unless they're racist, sexist, etc.). I care about how your beliefs affect who you are as a person. That's what counts for me. (In the case of Steve, I respect the work he does in terms of the final product, but he seems like a total prick, so he's a mixed bag for me.) Third, I'd guess that the probability of there being reincarnation or some sort of afterlife is probably a lot higher than what you've suggested. In fact, I'd probably argue that it's absolutely impossible. I find the certainty of both those very certain of an afterlife and those certain of its nonexistence to be very problematic. I've personally had some experiences that lead me to think that there is more going on than ordinary perception reveals. What those experiences mean, I don't know . Not trying to start an argument, just presenting my own perspective, and your skepticism was a convenient starting point . I'd personally be very interested to know more of what Steve means when he calls himself a Buddhist (part personal, part academic - I'm in the business of Buddhist studies, and I'm always curious to know why and how people self-identify with Buddhism, even if it's as loosely as you've suggested yourself). Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne
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I read/heard/saw something recently that said that the only true way to immortality was through having children. A much safer bet than your particles reassembling themselves...
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Join Date: Feb 2005
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Banging the Bottom End
Join Date: Jun 2004
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"Verily we will choppeth them up and stompeth them down, to make more room for our people" - Frank Zappa |
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I only just noticed this post. Sorry..
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But when there is so much logic and even biological evidence that just screams that our whole human idea of spirits, and ghosts and gods and demons is just part of the way our brains work and no more than that I find it really hard to take anyone seriously when they promote these kind of viewpoints. I find the whole idea of mysticism and all that it entails fantastically attractive and exciting, but simply from the perspective of the richness of life and cultural diversity (not to mention the politics of it all ), and sheer entertainment. I think another good thing about all this stuff is that it gives us so much insight into ourselves, if only we can step past the trap of believing it! Quote:
'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take' Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt Last edited by scratt : 2009-06-25 at 08:09. |
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OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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It also isn't a matter of everything like that existing the way that people say they do. I think that lots of it probably isn't true, though that isn't based on any evidence, it's just a hunch. However, I'm not willing to discount the existence of anything because I think it's much better to keep an open mind than to decide I know it all. I don't even think we're capable in this human form of beginning to comprehend everything that's going on here. However, if you have any actual logic or scientific evidence to prove something either way, I'd be fascinated to see it . Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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Formerly Roboman, still
awesome Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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If I were to insist that there was a tiny china teapot orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars, or that there was an invisible dragon breathing heatless flame inside my garage, would the burden of proof be on you to prove me wrong? Of course not - it's impossible to prove that an unobservable dragon is not living in my garage. But that doesn't mean it's there, does it? Basic logic dictates that the burden of proof is based on those making the claim (of souls, gods, the afterlife, whatever). Merely being unable to conclusively prove that a soul/god/heaven does not exist is not a logical reason to believe that they do. and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong |
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OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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Furthermore, one could argue that the only way to experience "spiritual states" (or whatever) is to practice whatever it is (prayer, meditation, etc.) that brings those experiences about. It could be no different than looking into a microscope - it's necessary to see things that you otherwise can't. The fact that some people refuse to do what is necessary to experience these things does not disqualify the empirical data that these people acquire. Some would argue that this is reproducible by those who sincerely try them. Now, I've never seen a "spiritual being" myself, so I withhold judgement. My personal philosophy is to keep an open mind about pretty much everything. I just don't see the certainty of the disbeliever as any different than that of the believer. Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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Formerly Roboman, still
awesome Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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I have no problem with religion* up until it tries to pass itself off as science. If people would just admit that there isn't empirical evidence for what they believe I wouldn't have a "problem" with it. (Isn't that why it's called "faith," anyway? By insisting on and searching for empirical proof, aren't people sort of showing a lack of faith? But I digress.) Of course, since it seems that most people can't believe in something without convincing themselves there's actual evidence for it, that might explain why religion tries to pass itself off as science: Without doing so, it would have far fewer followers. I don't claim to be "certain" either way, either - I don't rule out the existence of a possible god or gods any more than I explicitly rule out the existence of an unobservable dragon; I simply see no actual reason to believe in one in the first place, a position alternately considered agnosticism or weak atheism. *Organized religion is a different story. |
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We just aren't that important in the scheme of things to have even one all seeing deity devoted to us, if such a thing existed. And it just seems so unlikely that, with all the various gods Earth has, and has had over the millennia, we'd be so lucky as to have that many people who all created the Universe all looking after such an insignificant planet. And as for the idea of heaven and trillions of spirits presumably from this planet and others all hanging out in paradise... Well if we didn't have years of indoctrination, learned instinct, and biological mutations forming the modern human psyche you'd probably be locked up for even suggesting crap like this! Ever noticed how politicians can get away with the most inane things as long as they quote religion? It's all a scam!! A scheme. An old system of governance which is slowly dieing out. That's all. Nothing more IMO. Quote:
There are just so many Galaxies out there.. Trillions of Trillions, with themselves containing trillions of trillions of planetary systems, and those in turn holding 10s to 100s of planets. Statistically it has been shown very very clearly that the probability of planets with life on them is so huge that it's not even worth considering that it is not a possibility. In fact those same mathematicians have gone on to show with very simple statistical maths that the number of planetary bodies out there even in just the Universe we know of (and we know we don't know of all of it) is so freakin large that just using simple statistical calculations, the probability that there are completely parallel worlds to ours with exactly the same people and things going on right now is as near as dammit statistically undeniable. In fact the statistics are so damn solid that there are actually enough planets out there that you and I could be having this conversation on them right now on about 100, and there are also 100 or so planets with you and I having this conversation 1 second ago, and also 1 second in the future.. I am very roughly outlining the actual figures here, but you should get the gist. The numbers are just so huge as to be almost undeniable by anyone other than a complete luddite. It's probably a more scary concept to grasp and more mind boggling than religion itself. But it does actually have quite a lot of empirical evidence to back it up. Far more actually observable evidence than the ZERO SUM TOTAL that religion, afterlife, pixies or fairies do.. And these same sets of mathematical functions go on to show that there are enough planets that every different path that you or I could take from here are also statistically possible to be happening in parallel with our existence, both ahead and behind of us. The Universe really is that big.. I mean that could be it.. It could just be a huge brute force implementation of a probability engine! Having said that, I still have my doubts. But the maths is solid as a rock. There is a heck of a lot of fairly solid independent science behind all of this, as opposed to a few mullahs or dope smoking christians and a book they cooked up 2000 years ago. It's as simple as adding up numbers. A lot easier to put in some kind of framework and understand than "faith". And you touched on uniqueness (kind of) above.. Just take a look at fractals and how nature builds itself.. and have you ever wondered why certain people remind you of other people or we have certain "types" of people even with our relatively small lab sample on Earth.. We are all a lot more similar that we realize. To exactly recreate the same human is not that hard (relatively). We are simply not that unique or special. By our own standards perhaps we are.. But on a Universal level.. We're cockroaches. As it stands we think we're pretty special, but it's all by our own standards. And that's like trying to imagine more intelligence than you have.. You may know it exists, but you cannot ever possibly experience or understand it. So as far as we are concerned we are the pinnacle of evolution... and anything else would be wrong, or a monster. You also touched on free will and decisions. And I agree with you.. But if you are on the same exact planet with the same piano about to land on your head as the one I have about to land on my head here.. I am going to react the same way on both planets if I have had the same life path and same physical make up, with all the same influences around me all my life... That's what the statistics are all about. The same things happening from day 1 onwards. The statistics are also about the same things happening on version 2 of the planet, but with 1 molecule out of place on day 1.. and all that entails, and planet 2 having two molecules out of place comparatively.. and so on.. The numbers are just that huge. I don't know how else to explain it. But I am not making it up. You can go read about it. The people who have written about it have done a much better job than I have here, for sure. Quote:
What makes me laugh is that we live in societies with such a strong religious drive and yet when the mass murderer tells us "God told him to do it", or people say they see the end of the world coming because a "vision from God came to them".... we lock them up! You see... We know it's crap. We just choose to believe it for comfort. Have you ever wondered what would happen today if Jesus suddenly showed up in Israel or Gaza and said, "Hi. I've come to save you all!". Most likely he'd be drafted into a terrorist organization or killed or locked up. Quote:
What about dogs and cats? Do they have an afterlife too? Do they have Gods? What about Dolphins and Whales? I know you keep an open mind.. But what's your take on that? Is it a humans only club? The Universe is a lot harsher then we like to believe. We are a lot more insignificant than we'd like to believe, and there is loads going on we don't even begin to understand. That last bit is the very genesis of our belief in the supernatural. There is a quote I am sure you know which goes something along the lines that when something is so advanced compared to what we understand it is very likely at that point to be indistinguishable from magic to us... And our belief in gods and afterlives is akin to the tribe living in "unga-bunga" land who believe that the Sun is their overlord who rises each day to spray magic beams of life onto their crops and make them grow. The theory works. Those beams do bring life. But when we actually investigate we find out that it's got nothing to do with any god. As we grow and our learning increases these kinds of beliefs will become more and more marginalized, but there will always be that last genetically implanted impulse to see unexplainable things as magic! Look at modern religion today.. Especially the latest extra 10 commandments issued by the catholic church (*spits*) and you'll see how the institutions themselves are struggling to find relevance. And on a side note how can an organization that is worth $TRILLIONS, and brings in $BILLIONS every year from investments in banks, oil companies and the like, be considered a religious organization, and not simply a stinking pit of theft built on the very life breath of it's indoctrinated followers.. Sorry I got off track for a moment then!!! Quote:
And my proof that there is no afterlife, or pixies, or fairies or god is similar to that of there being no time travel. We've not seen gods visiting us, and we've not seen people from the future on package holidays here.. As for, well we've not seen or heard from aliens yet either.. Again, the reasons are all based on very simple science. The time it takes for light to get anywhere, and even more relevant, *things* to get anywhere.. The average length of a planets inhabitable period and how that would overlap with our own planets period of habitability and the length of time we've had radio, how long the signals take to travel, the length of time it takes civilisations to devlope radio comms (if they even do) and the time they are likely to exist if they follow a similar path to us and not wipe themselves out.. and so on... makes it unlikely (even with the statistics I have outlined above) that we'll actually ever meet anyone, let alone our parallel selves.. THE UNIVERSE IS JUST THAT DAMN BIG!! In any case I think my belief path has much more sound reasoning than "having a feeling". btw Here is just one link which kind of explains quite concisely the figures I am talking about above.. It's simply talking about the probability of life, any life, on planets in the visible Universe. But should give you an idea of the figures involved... using incredibly frugal estimates... http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Purpose...ists_Elsewhere Quote:
Even so based on those figures I find it very easy to conceptualize meeting a "Swox clone" at some point if I travelled far and wide enough. Heck I'd take bets on it. I reckon in just 6 Billion people on the Earth I could probably at least find someone else who looked like you... How far off topic are we now, anyway!?! 'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take' Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt Last edited by scratt : 2009-06-26 at 00:50. |
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OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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Because I have avoided making any truth claim about these things, I don't have to prove a thing Quote:
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What I'm talking about here isn't people trying to challenge people to think about what they believe, why they believe it, and how that belief affects them and others, but the whole "religion is dumb, god ain't real, your book is all made up and shit because I ain't seen god so it can't be". They're making the same mistake as some of those they're criticizing: thinking they know all there is to know about life, the universe, and everything . I have the same problem when religious people try to say "the earth is 6000 years old and it's flat and the universe revolves around it, etc.". It's not a matter of saying "not a lick of evidence so it could go either way" with those (and other) issues; we have a lot of evidence supporting science and next to none supporting the religious. Quote:
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Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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The reason your theory strikes me as absurd is that you would need to somehow calculate the probability of not only me existing exactly the way I do (already impossible, unless you're god or some supernatural omniscient being), but also of all of human, animal, atomic, etc. history of all of the history of the earth all happening exactly as they did. About a trillion to the power of a trillion to the power of a trillion, etc. times more difficult. How big the universe is simply doesn't matter: it's just impossible for us to give all of those factors a probability, which would be absolutely necessary to make the claim you're making. Re: Animals and the afterlife: I have no idea of what happens after we die. I can tell you what a lot of Buddhists will believe which is that all beings experience rebirth when they die. Where they are reborn is determined by their past karma. Birth as a human is called a "precious human birth" because we are not necessarily dominated by the three poisons as beings in the three lower realms, but not as blissed out as those in the higher realms, which means we have the best opportunity for practicing the path to enlightenment, or at least accumulating merit (which can bring about birth in heaven realms, buddha realms, etc.). Is any of that true? I personally don't know. I don't even know if I want it to be true Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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You're very simply missing the point wrt to "my" theory and "my" beliefs. I simply put it forward as something I find easier to find credible than *any* religions' ideas. I don't really feel I have to prove anything (re. your comments to Roboman), as what pathetically small evidence there may be for "my" theory is still volumes larger than anything religion has ever presented! And I am well aware of the figures / complexities you are quoting, but the fact remains that the estimated numbers of planets in the Universe we *think* exists are not far off being big enough to solve the very problems you pose. That *is* the whole point of it as a theory. When something like that is mathematically possible it kind of throws old men sitting in clouds with long beards into the kind of perspective I think it deserves. But I'd happily concede both are nuts. *Both* Obviously I am over simplifying anyway when describing these ideas. And I don't actually believe that there are 10 planets with you and I having this conversation. BUT it's still easier to swallow as a concept than even Buddhists ideas, which I have a great deal of time for. Yup, and I know all the Buddhist definitions. What I was interested in is your take on it. If you maintain an open mind you must have considered these things yourself.. I'd really like to know your gut feeling on whether Whales get a second shot or not... 'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take' Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt |
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OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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My personal feeling is that if humans get a "second shot" or anything (i.e. heaven, etc.), then animals do too. I lump us all under "sems can" or "mind possessors", so we all experience basically the same thing after death, whatever that may be (the bardo of dying, otherwise known as the dying process, for sure, perhaps the bardo of becoming, etc.), though the dying process may be different based on species (though it's my suspicion that it's not that different at all). It's nice when my Buddhist theory matches so closely with my pre-existing beliefs - I've always been an animal lover! Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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Well on that we certainly agree. I am glad you are at least an equal opportunity loony. Nothing worse than people with exclusive nutjob beliefs
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne
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I tried to keep it short and concise so I've probably missed out on a lot of key points in there. But I hope that you see my point, of how an actual scientist might approach dismissing religion. Sure, your average Joe might "religion is dumb, god ain't real" approach, but proper scientists are generally a little more scientific and reasoned in their pitch. |
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Formerly Roboman, still
awesome Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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Swox, you claim that you don't take sides either way, and thus don't need to prove anything...but why do you think there could possibly be a god/soul/afterlife in the first place, lacking any evidence? I'm quite sure you don't apply the same open-mindedness to the invisible dragon I just made up. Why? Just curious. |
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OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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It has been my experience that most scientists aren't as reasoned and open minded as the ideal would have it, just like most Buddhists/Christians/etc. don't live up to their ideals of their religion. Most people are taught something in school/university/temple/church and once they latch onto a particular way of seeing things, they refuse to budge on it. There are tones of examples of this happening in science (neuroplasticity immediately comes to mind). While I have no doubt that there are some very intelligent, brave, and open minded scientists out there, in my experience they are the extraordinary ones, much like my experience with religious people. Second, you are lumping religion (if it can even reasonably be isolated as a phenomena, which I don't think it can) all into one camp. There are plenty of religions and religious people which have no interest pushing their religious views on others, do not think their religion is universally true for all people, do not have certainty that their religion is 100% right about everything, don't want government policy to be based on it, etc. You're basically talking about fundamentalist monotheists; admittedly a large group, particularly in the States, but hardly representative of the rest of the world's religions/religious people. Finally, there are many people who understand their religious life in a very different way than you explain. Religion can be primarily a meaning system - a way of giving meaning and purpose to our lives. We need this as human beings, it seems, and science does a lousy job at generating meaning. It's simply not what it does, though many people who think of themselves as "scientific" try to advance it as a meaning system (i.e. "we are just biological robots, there's nothing significant about us or our lives or our world or anything"; almost a system of non-meaning). Their meaning system seems to consist primarily of trying to destroy the meaning systems of others (otherwise known as conversion) by pointing out things like contradictions that are meaningless to the lives of their followers (admittedly there are those who claim that every word of their book/books are literally true, whatever the hell that means). For instance, you argue that there is no way that the Buddha taught the Kalacakra Tantra to the king of a mythical kingdom 500+ years before the former was likely alive (it was much more likely written in the 12th century AD), therefore the whole thing is null and void. But in saying that, you'd be completely missing the whole point, which is that it is primarily a system of practices (i.e. meditation and visualization) whose validity is not sought in it's history, but in is efficaciousness as a practice. You would also need to do a lot of study to understand how texts are understood in the material culture of Buddhist societies to really get into it (something we are just beginning to understand, we hope!). Don't worry, I'm not going to summarize that literature here . Anyway, this is getting really longwinded, so I'll stop here. Quote:
So in my own view, I don't feel that I lack any evidence. Can I pull it out of my pocket and show it to you? Nope. But if you did the same practices that I have, and spent time around the people that I am so fortunate to (one of the main reasons I study Tibetan Buddhism), you might feel you have some evidence too. Is it conclusive for any particular view? For me, not at this point. But for me to deny that there is more going on than it may appear on the surface after what I've seen would, in my opinion, be very foolish. As for your dragon, I must confess that I do not posses the same open-mindedness toward its existence, but only because you just told me you make it up . Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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Split from the Steve Jobs thread…
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Location: Melbourne
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Just a quick thought, but I do not intend to get too deep into this. The one thing I take issue with is that many, although not all, of the people I know who claim science as giving us the meaning of life vs the religious people I know, is that they are not open to the possibility of there being anything supernatural or spiritual. The reason this bugs me is that they give no evidence whatsoever to prove that supernatural or spiritual activities do not take place, meaning they have no science to backup their belief, which in a sense makes them a hypocrite.
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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How can anyone prove the absolute absence of something? As Robodude said, this is shifting the burden of proof. The onus is on the believer to show evidence that something supernatural or spiritual exists. The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting. |
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Sneaky Punk
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Good points Brad. I have no issue with science itself, more with some scientists. I question my on personal experience with religious/supernatural/spiritual activity, as they could be deceiving. I wont discount what I have experienced, as it is somewhat compelling, but until we have a better understanding of what the human mind can do, there may be no solid evidence.
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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This is a silly mindset because it assumes you have some sort of consciousness link with your kids when no one does. The point is, when you're dead, you're dead and having x kids won't make you any less dead or any more conscious of the world that you inhabited the moment before. The right reason to have kids is that you love kids and want to raise them and grow from that and contribute a few good people (less than 5, please! Adopt if you want more, I say... adopt! ) to the world's problems. The rest is lunacy.
...into the light of a dark black night. |
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OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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Actually, the burden of proof is on either side that claims something to be true. If a science-type person claims with certainty that god/whatever doesn't exist, it does shift to them to prove their assertion. Someone saying that they don't believe in something because they have no evidence is very different than saying that it doesn't exist because they have no evidence for it. Unfortunately, a lot of "scientists" do the latter, and they should, in my mind, be criticized as hypocrites as PB PM has suggested, just as religious people are criticized for not living up to their faith. Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
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i have plenty of evidence that deities are creations of human imagination. therefore, god or whatever deity is on the platter tonight doesn't exist.
you see it isn't necessary to prove anything about the deity itself when you can show that it was invented by some people a long time ago. the fact that we still argue about whether the deity exists is merely a slight of hand of those religious sorts. as far as hypocrisy is concerned, scientists who are atheists don't argue that a god doesn't exist, they argue that THE god in THE judeochristian tradition cannot possibly exist. This is a linguistic curiosity mostly stemming from cultural homogeneity and their argument is based upon facts wherein the entire set of texts attributed to the deity are provably false. so... |
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