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October 30 2018 event notes


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October 30 2018 event notes
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kscherer
Ain't got none
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2018-11-02, 11:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by spotcatbug View Post
… Frickin' geniuses... of marketing.
Was it "marketing", or did Apple design and build something that you wanted/needed?

The two are not the same.

The first means delivering the product you say you wanted/needed and you buying it because you want/need it. The second is delivering some random product and then convincing you that you want/need it, so you buy it even though you don't really want/need it.

The keyboard is something you knew Apple would deliver. It wasn't random. And it is drastically improved over the previous version. I'm guessing you looked at it and said "that would be a great accessory that I would use. Yes, it's more money, but I would definitely use that!" as opposed to "I have no need for that stupid thing, but I'm spending money anyway so I'll get it and put it on the shelf because *marketing*."

Since November 2016, I have tried to live my life without politics or football, and it has been the most peaceful time of my life.
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2018-11-02, 11:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Was it "marketing", or did Apple design and build something that you wanted/needed?

The two are not the same.

The first means delivering the product you say you wanted/needed and you buying it because you want/need it. The second is delivering some random product and then convincing you that you want/need it, so you buy it even though you don't really want/need it.
The first is marketing. The second is advertising.
  quote
kscherer
Ain't got none
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2018-11-02, 11:50

I just looked up the definition and you are [partially] correct, Chucker.

Quote:
Marketing:

the action or business of promoting and selling products or services, including market research and advertising.
"Marketing" is all-inclusive (advertising is part of marketing, not separate from it). Which means the pundits (myself included) have been using the term "marketing" wrong all this time.

Since November 2016, I have tried to live my life without politics or football, and it has been the most peaceful time of my life.
  quote
Frank777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2018-11-02, 11:57

So the MacBook Air - which is going to be the mass market machine - has eschewed the Touch Bar.

That means the Touch Bar's dead now, right?
No-one's going to continue to code apps for a specialized menu bar only available on a tiny fraction of Macs.
  quote
709
Damned
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2018-11-02, 12:09

Kind of surprised that Apple didn't introduce a keyboard w/ TouchBar along side the upgraded mini. Seems like it would be a perfect companion to a new pro-er machine like that.

So it goes.
  quote
kscherer
Ain't got none
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2018-11-02, 12:47

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
So the MacBook Air - which is going to be the mass market machine - has eschewed the Touch Bar.

That means the Touch Bar's dead now, right?
No-one's going to continue to code apps for a specialized menu bar only available on a tiny fraction of Macs.
It means nothing of the sort. The technology is still expensive to implement, it uses more power, etc. And Apple considers it a feature of their "pro" machines, whereby "pro" means a high end computer, not the user behind it.

The Touch Bar is here to stay, and will migrate down at a later date, as "Pro" features always have. Kind of like the Apple Pencil migrating down to the regular 9.7" iPad, whilst the iPad Pro got a newer, fancier version. And the Retina Display first appearing on "Pro" machines. And quad-core i7 processors, etc.

Touch Bar is a vision of things to come—the keyboard on MacBook Pros will eventually be a virtual, all-glass keyboard that displays whatever the developer wants to display.

And developers have always developed for small, niche markets.

Always!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
Kind of surprised that Apple didn't introduce a keyboard w/ TouchBar along side the upgraded mini. Seems like it would be a perfect companion to a new pro-er machine like that.
Battery and cost are my guess. That sort of thing should have debuted with the iMac Pro and been included in the box.

Since November 2016, I have tried to live my life without politics or football, and it has been the most peaceful time of my life.
  quote
Frank777
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2018-11-02, 12:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
...the keyboard on MacBook Pros will eventually be a virtual, all-glass keyboard that displays whatever the developer wants to display.
No argument with this idea. I agree a version of it will be the future. It would be truly useful, as opposed to the current Touch Bar.

Although I expect that constantly shifting key locations will be really annoying for muscle memory.
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2018-11-02, 13:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
I just looked up the definition and you are [partially] correct, Chucker.



"Marketing" is all-inclusive (advertising is part of marketing, not separate from it). Which means the pundits (myself included) have been using the term "marketing" wrong all this time.
Well, not just pundits. Most companies use the term "marketing" in a manner that might as well mean advertising.

You're right that advertising is technically part of marketing, but I was referring specifically to your distinction:

Quote:
The first means delivering the product you say you wanted/needed and you buying it because you want/need it. The second is delivering some random product and then convincing you that you want/need it, so you buy it even though you don't really want/need it.
This is true of many companies. Apple, however, has an unusually strict "product marketing" role that intends to fit the first definition, not the second (a cynic might argue that they often wind up in the second role, but that's neither here nor there). Advertising, then, merely becomes an end result much in the way operations/supply does.
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chucker
 
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2018-11-02, 13:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
Kind of surprised that Apple didn't introduce a keyboard w/ TouchBar along side the upgraded mini. Seems like it would be a perfect companion to a new pro-er machine like that.
Not just the Mac mini. Also, worse, the iMac Pro. An entire new model, even with a Pro moniker, and no Touch Bar to be seen.
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2018-11-02, 13:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Battery and cost are my guess. That sort of thing should have debuted with the iMac Pro and been included in the box.
Exactly. A case can be made that it's too high-end for the Mac mini, but for a model that starts at $4,999, it should have ben included.

So, why wasn't it?

Part of it could be engineering difficulties. On the MacBook Pro, the Touch Bar runs on the T1/T2; essentially, what you have is an embedded Apple Watch, only the CPU is T-series instead of S-series, and the display is very long and narrow instead of almost square. And next to it, you have Touch ID, which becomes security-relevant. So, how do you do that wirelessly? You need low latency and high security. Tricky.

But I fear the other part is that they're waffling. And that's… not good.
  quote
kscherer
Ain't got none
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2018-11-02, 15:08

I think the Touch Bar exists to test the technology in the wild before they go all-in with a full Touch Keyboard.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
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2018-11-03, 19:33

Ugh, please no glass touch keyboard with no keys. Might be a dream for hunt and peck types who look at the keys, but for anyone who actually types properly a real keyboard will win any day of the week. It takes 2-3x longer for me to type on an iPad or iPhone than a keyboard, which is fine for that application, but I sure wouldn't want it on my computer.
  quote
spotcatbug
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Clayton, NC
 
2018-11-05, 10:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Was it "marketing", or did Apple design and build something that you wanted/needed?
It's funny you zero'd in on my use of the word "marketing." I hit "post" and thought, "Hmm. Not really 'marketing.' Ah, screw it, nobody's gonna care whether I use just the right word there."

What I really meant to say was that they are frickin' geniuses of pricing (which is related to marketing, but not the same thing, yes.)

Not only did Apple get an extra $150 out of me, right off the bat, by keeping the old iPad Pro model at the old price, they bumped me up another $150 because who's gonna buy an iPad Pro with only 64GB in almost 2019? Then, since they had so adeptly pushed me into this new pricing arena ($650 became $950), the price of the folio keyboard seemed not so much more. At $650, adding another $180 for a keyboard seems... kinda wrong. But when you're at $950.. eh, throw the keyboard in there, too.

So, using their amazing pricing skills, they turned a $650 sale into a $1130 sale.

I did stop short of the pen(cil). I just don't think I'd use that. But, if I had thought of a use for it, another $130 would have seemed pretty OK. "It's cheaper than the keyboard? Sold."

Ugh.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2018-11-05, 10:31

Yeah, there’s no doubt Apple’s pricing has increased significantly.

The cynical view: with slowing market growth, this is their new way to grow revenues. That’s especially true for the iPhone.

I still wish the Pencil had an eraser on its back side.
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