[Is it 1981?]

Thought it'd be better to start a specific thread rather than carry on in the "next week?" thread

Just one thing; is it me or does the high-end iMac cost more than it would've cost if you did a BTO with the previous generation?

EDIT: Was talking from a UK perspective... and it seems like they are more expensive than the previous generation. Ouch.

[Satchmo]

I'm more curious about the low end iMacs...

Are this integrated NVIDIA GeForce 9400M suppose to be better than the dedicated ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT's and 2600 PRO's they replace?
Seems like a bit of give and take in terms of price/performance.

[wecallitfall]

No FW400?

(Someone had to say it)

[bassplayinMacFiend]

The new iMacs come with FW800. Don't see an issue myself. The big uproar last Fall was the FW400 being replaced with ... nothing.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by wecallitfall No FW400? (Someone had to say it)

Don't scare me like that!

It does have FW800 which is fully compatible with FW400 devices, like USB 2.0 to USB 1.1. The only catch is that it uses a different plug which means you have to get a new cable or adapter for ~$8.

[709]

And with that FW400 is officially dead. Other than the old white MacBook I believe it's been replaced (or removed from) everything.

[Robo]

Here's a quick rundown on the new iMacs:

$1,199 - goes from 2.4 GHz to 2.66 GHz, 250GB to 320 GB, 1GB to 2GB

$1,499 - goes from 20" to 24", 320GB to 640 GB, 2GB to 4GB

$1,799 - goes from 2.8 GHz to 2.93 GHz, 320 or 500GB to 640 GB, 2GB to 4GB

$2,199 - goes from 500GB to 1TB (!!!), 2GB to 4GB

All models: New nVidia graphics, FW800, mini-DP out. Oh, and four USB (+1).

[torifile]

I know it may be too early to know, but does anyone know if that 24" is still using the S-IPS panel?

[Satchmo]

BTW, another 'gotcha' from Apple. Looks like the wired keyboard that ships will these new iMacs, have no numeric pad.

Not a biggie for some.
But this kind of nickel and dimming just makes new switchers/owners scratch their heads realizing they have to fork out another $50 for one with a keypad.

[Luca]

I did some research and found out what the GT 120 and GT 130 are. They're just rebadged versions of the GeForce 9500GT and 9600GSO. The GT 120 should be marginally better than the HD2600 Pro it replaces, while the GT 130 is just a notch below the 8800GS from the previous high-end iMac. The Radeon 4850 offered as a BTO configuration in the two higher-end iMacs is the only real gaming-level card - the others will play games, but they'll struggle with newer ones, especially the GT 120.

It's too bad that two of the four iMac configurations got graphics downgrades. Moving from the 2600 Pro to the 9400M is a downgrade on the $1,499 model. Somewhat justified since they upped the screen size, but doesn't the ever-decreasing price of components necessitate that they improve the value over time anyway? And the highest-end model moved from an 8800GS to a rebadged 9600GSO, which is slower (the 8800GS is equivalent to a 9600GT, with the 9600GSO being a step below that).

Moving beyond graphics, the other specs look pretty good. As usual, Apple charges way too much to upgrade certain parts, especially hard drives (which are difficult to upgrade yourself).

[hmurchison]

The imacs are "ok" but this is the c2D swan song.

The next iMacs will be Lynnfield Core i5 and will probably come with the rumored redesign.

I'm eyeballing a couple of minis. Frankly until the iMac gets quad core I see better value in a Mini mated to a 23" IPS monitor for $899

[709]

Originally Posted by Satchmo BTW, another 'gotcha' from Apple. Looks like the wired keyboard that ships will these new iMacs, have no numeric pad.

You can BTO the wired extended keyboard for no additional charge, but it does seem a little strange to make the 'mini' keyboard the default.

I don't know. Do people use their keypads? I know I use mine every day.

[Luca]

FYI, the old iMacs are available in the refurb section. $849 for the old $1,199 model (20", 2.4 GHz, 1 GB RAM, HD2400XT) and $1,199 for a 24" model! In fact I think the old 24" one might actually be better than the new one, or at least so close you can't tell, in every area except HD/RAM.

[bassplayinMacFiend]

Originally Posted by 709 You can BTO the wired extended keyboard for no additional charge, but it does seem a little strange to make the 'mini' keyboard the default. I don't know. Do people use their keypads? I know I use mine every day.

I use mine regularly too. Only time I want to miss a numeric keypad is on a laptop w/o external keyboard. Every other keyboard should have a numpad.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Luca FYI, the old iMacs are available in the refurb section. $849 for the old $1,199 model (20", 2.4 GHz, 1 GB RAM, HD2400XT) and $1,199 for a 24" model! In fact I think the old 24" one might actually be better than the new one, or at least so close you can't tell, in every area except HD/RAM.

That is relevant to my interests.

24" iMac + a cheap Dell netbook for $1,399...wow.

I'd kind of dig 4GB of RAM, though. That's, like, limitless.

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by Roboman I'd kind of dig 4GB of RAM, though. That's, like, limitless.

I used to think so, until I got 4 GB in my macbook, and the performance is definitely better, but you know, it still slows down now and again. I never feels 'limitless'.

[Luca]

If you get a refurb, it'll be cheaper to upgrade it yourself since it uses DDR2 instead of DDR3.

[Wrao]

If we factor in the 4GB of DD3 ram, the 24" IPS display(guessing), is the $1799 really much of a rip off or overpriced machine? I don't spend much time with configuring PCs(read: virtually none at all) I know that you can get impressive specs for far less than that, but I also know that a good 24" IPS monitor is likely to be $600-800 alone.

[Luca]

You're right on the monitor. That leaves $1,000 for the other stuff.

A comparable PC to the $1,799 iMac would be something like this:

Core 2 Duo E8400 (3.0 GHz, 6 MB L2) - $165
4 GB DDR3 - $50
GeForce 9500GT - $60
640 GB hard drive - $70
Optical drive - $25
Motherboard - ~$80
Case - ~$70
Power supply - ~$50
Keyboard + mouse - ~$50
Basic speakers - ~$30

Works out to $650, not including a screen. These are just rough estimates. The funny thing is, though, it'd be silly to configure a PC like that. The processor is overkill for basic work, and for those who do content creation, a similarly-priced quad-core CPU would be a better option. The people who like the E8400 are generally gamers, who prefer faster dual-core CPUs over slower quad-core ones. But no gamer would buy a GeForce 9500GT. In fact, no one should buy one... there are options out there that are much cheaper if all you want is basic video output, and if you want to game you can get a Radeon 4830 for $80 that'll blow a 9500GT out of the water for just $20 more.

Plus you have to remember that the iMac is more than the sum of its parts. Several of the parts are laptop-sized components that cost more, primarily the CPU. The E8400 is a mainstream desktop chip running at 3 GHz with 6 MB of L2 cache. The T9800, though (the one in the iMac) is a mobile chip with virtually the same stats but with much lower power consumption. And wouldn't you know, the CPU alone costs almost $600. The case is made of aluminum and requires a lot of engineering to design - way more than your typical ATX case. The main logic board is way more than your typical ATX motherboard as well - it's a custom unit designed for the iMac's uniquely shaped case.

I think the general criticism with Apple's hardware isn't that they charge too much for it (unless you're talking about BTO upgrades), it's that their configurations are kind of wonky and you can't really do anything to change them. But that's the case with most manufacturers—they will configure way higher processors than necessary, at the expense of other components, because that's all most people look at.

[Wrao]

The thing that gets me about the pricing scheme is how, sure the Radeon 4850 is a $200 card(list, google shopping reveals it as cheap as $160), but when you swap out the $50 card that is in there by default and replace with a radeon, it should be a $150 upgrade, not a $200 upgrade. Those little things are where Apple squeaks out the most money from its consumers.

Also, $1000 for 4GB more of RAM? Yowch. Although, I guess it uses Laptop RAM which is considerably more expensive than desktop for 4GB DIMMs, but not $1000 more expensive.

[Capella]

The 9500GT isn't THAT bad- it handles many only slightly older games fine. I mean, I want a better card for my gaming rig but I got it for $30, so I didn't care. That said, I get that there are better options in that price range the iMac coulda used.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Satchmo BTW, another 'gotcha' from Apple. Looks like the wired keyboard that ships will these new iMacs, have no numeric pad. Not a biggie for some. But this kind of nickel and dimming just makes new switchers/owners scratch their heads realizing they have to fork out another $50 for one with a keypad.

First of all, the variant with the numeric keypad is the same price. I didn't check all iMacs, but it's true for the $1199 low-end model. Only the wireless one costs $30 more.

Second, while there are most certainly a lot of people out there who regularly benefit from a keypad, there is also an increasing number that prefers the keyboard to be small and simple. It's not just about mobility (which, with a wired keyboard, is obviously limited); it's also about ergonomics: your mouse is much closer to where your right hand would rest on the keyboard, which can be a huge win for those who are forced to frequently move the right hand between keyboard and mouse. For something as infrequently-used if not downright archaic as the keypad, I think Apple giving us the choice now is a feature, not a bug.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Satchmo I'm more curious about the low end iMacs... Are this integrated NVIDIA GeForce 9400M suppose to be better than the dedicated ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT's and 2600 PRO's they replace? Seems like a bit of give and take in terms of price/performance.

It is really low end, and frankly the fact that they have IGPs in $1000+ machines is insulating IMO. I understood when they had a low end model with an IGP, but was $999 or something. IMO, Apple really blew it this time around. When the refurbs look more attractive than what they were replaced with you know something is wrong.

[Luca]

Originally Posted by Capella The 9500GT isn't THAT bad- it handles many only slightly older games fine. I mean, I want a better card for my gaming rig but I got it for $30, so I didn't care. That said, I get that there are better options in that price range the iMac coulda used.

The low end graphics market is a very crowded place. Companies release version after version with tiny $5-$10 price differences between them, they rebadge old cards (nVidia) or simply keep selling old cards under the old names (ATI), and so on. The 9500GT is just another one of the many cheap video cards. Nothing special, not really bad either. It's equivalent to probably a dozen or so other GPUs within $10 of its price. Things become a lot more granular once you get above $100.

Originally Posted by PB PM It is really low end, and frankly the fact that they have IGPs in $1000+ machines is insulating IMO. I understood when they had a low end model with an IGP, but was $999 or something. IMO, Apple really blew it this time around. When the refurbs look more attractive than what they were replaced with you know something is wrong.

Exactly. The 9400M is maybe just on par with the 2400XT, depending on the use, but it's definitely a step below the 2600 Pro. And seriously, integrated graphics on a $1,500 desktop?

[Dorian Gray]

Originally Posted by Wrao Also, $1000 for 4GB more of RAM? Yowch. Although, I guess it uses Laptop RAM which is considerably more expensive than desktop for 4GB DIMMs, but not $1000 more expensive.

2 x 4 GB is $780 on Crucial, so this stuff isn't cheap.

[Eugene]

Don't know about you, but my arms rest naturally outward, so the ergonomics argument is a bit dubious. So what happens when I buy a pre-configured iMac at an Apple Store. Do I have the option of walking out the store with a full-sized keyboard at no extra charge or do I have to pay? I assume I have to pay if I buy an iMac from Amazon...

Maybe if Apple wants to be green, they shouldn't force us to buy two keyboards when we only need one.

[PB PM]

Yeah, 4GB SO-DIMMs are expensive. 4GBs (2x2GB) is cheap though. Not even $100.

[psmith2.0]

Holy crap, they're selling the 2.66GHz iMac for $999 at the refurb section! That's with 2GB RAM, 320GB hard drive and the 256MB graphics (that's what my machine was, and I still paid $1,049 for it, and it's 2.4GHz).

Someone could land one hell of a deal on a butt-kicking iMac (I can vouch for it) for a grand. Those won't last long...

[Luca]

I should tell my mom. She'll start hand-wringing and say she can't afford it but she needs a new computer so badly right now. I wonder if she'll ever be able to?

[psmith2.0]

You could toss in that the same thing was $1,499 24 hours ago?

It's an awesome deal. It's a skootch faster than mine (2.66 vs. 2.4), but it's also $50 less than I paid. I wouldn't have waited four months, of course. But if I was needing an iMac right now, hell yeah I'd jump on that!



I wonder if that's a typo on their end...that almost seems too good to be true. They've had $949-999 iMac refurbs all along, but they were 2.0-2.4GHz with the 250GB hard drives, 128MB graphics, etc. The stuff with the 320GB and 256MB graphics were still going for $1,049-1,299.

I guess these new models out today changes all that.

I've already e-mailed some people about them. And one of the people who I knew was considering the mini, she doesn't have that nice of a monitor (an older, bubbly CRT), so she was looking to get a $599 mini, plus another chunk on a LCD of some kind, and then some RAM, probably an Apple keyboard (after that freezing situation with my Mom's PC keyboard, plus the keys not matching up and just being a general hassle/confusion, it's easier, in the end, to just have the damn Apple keyboard IMO), etc.

Screw that! By the time you factor all that in, you're up there, knocking on the $800-900 door (and that's still with only a 120GB 5400rpm hard drive, integrated graphics, no iSight, the less-than-sleek two-piece set-up, etc.). I suggested she take all that into account and give that refurb iMac a good close look...it probably shakes out (when you factor in the things she'll need to buy, to about a $100 difference).

Plus, if I can avoid opening up another Mac mini to install RAM...



What does a 19-20" widescreen display at Office Depot or Best Buy go for? I don't see them for less than $150, that's for sure (and they're still often 1440x900).