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is God dark matter...or is dark matter God?


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is God dark matter...or is dark matter God?
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thegelding
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2007-01-29, 20:37



can't see it, you infer it is there by the effect it has on surrounding objects...

wiki: dark matter refers to matter particles, not directly observed and of unknown composition, that do not emit or reflect enough electromagnetic radiation to be detected directly, but whose presence can be inferred from gravitational effects on visible matter. According to the Standard Model, dark matter accounts for the vast majority of mass in the observable universe.


supposively makes up 5/6ths of the mass of the known universe, yet we can't see or observe it directly....

so can we touch it? will it hinder possible space flight?

it keeps galaxies from spinning apart

is it....God??

g

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2007-01-29, 20:58

Only if it can interact in the our lives the way we think of God. I'm not sure we'll ever replace faith with scientific observation. It is some crazy stuff though..
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Schnauzer
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2007-01-29, 21:03

sure why not?
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billybobsky
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2007-01-29, 21:33

'It' is confirmation that we face will face our intellectual hurdles and keep ticking. Think about it, we cannot directly observe dark matter. It doesn't respond to light because it isn't matter composed of electrons and nuclei, it isn't everywhere, and yes, if we ever manage interstellar space travel we will have to take it into account.

It could be as simple as nuclei in some sort of entangled state with muons or tau -- not quite atom like but close...
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Chinney
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2007-01-29, 21:37

I like the idea.
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drewprops
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2007-01-29, 21:50

It's been interesting to watch as science fiction gets pushed more and more into the realm of what would have been considered the Fantasy genre fifteen years ago. Much of this due to the fact that we can now envision being able to implement true nanotech and harness quantum physics in ways that only hyper-gifted physicists can conceive.

Edit (expansion): Flying, teleportation, revival from death, transmutation of solid matter, the list goes on... and would have seemed more like "magic" until recently.

Still, when you read the novels the concept of an all-pervasive intellect is stitched through more and more work. From Asimov's planet-spanning colony bacteria intellect in Nemesis to the noosphere of people like Dan Simmons and Stephenson's take on a total VR world. More and more it becomes easier to get a long glimpse of how an intelligence that spans time and space ("living" in the interstices in ways that we never imagined) could be created (by man) within the next 500 years.

Seeing that, why is the idea of God (ever able to defy scientific method) so hard to acknowledge? Do we have to make God in order for Him to be real?

A fun topic!

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709
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2007-01-29, 21:59

Does a dark God matter?

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GladToBeHere
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2007-01-29, 23:05

If energy and matter are really two sides of the same coin, then who's flipping the coin?
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Freewell
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2007-01-29, 23:11

I like the simple summary I heard from a guest speaker years ago: "If you try to define God, you will lose your mind. If you deny Him, you will lose your soul. This is where faith comes in."

The enormity and complexity of God never ceases to amaze me. It is in my moments of attempting to absorb the magnitude of His existence, that I realize yet again what an exercise in futility it is for us, as created beings, to even begin to wrap our terminally finite minds around the omniscience of our Creator!

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thuh Freak
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2007-01-29, 23:50

it is a really cool idea. but at the same time, its not filling. dark matter is basically the fuzz you add onto the observed datasets in order to make them fit the theory's model. "o, i was off by 80% in my calculations, oh yea, that was just the dark matter..." every grain of fuzz represents a deficiency in man's knowledge. the tonnage of fuzz is a testament to man's youngness on the grand scale of things. we have a long way to go. [are ya ready?] maybe god'll be at the end of the tunnel. but maybe, just maybe, its a room full of hookers and blow. [thats what i'm betting on]

...but to answer your question: yes. dark matter is god. god is dark matter. god is everything we don't know. and we don't know dark matter.
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Bryson
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2007-01-30, 05:07

The God of the Gaps theory, then.
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billybobsky
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2007-01-30, 08:07

As an affirmed atheist, all this talk of god has me chuckling inside.

Take Freewell's post for instance:

Quote:
I like the simple summary I heard from a guest speaker years ago: "If you try to define God, you will lose your mind. If you deny Him, you will lose your soul. This is where faith comes in."

The enormity and complexity of God never ceases to amaze me. It is in my moments of attempting to absorb the magnitude of His existence, that I realize yet again what an exercise in futility it is for us, as created beings, to even begin to wrap our terminally finite minds around the omniscience of our Creator!
If you edit it like so, it actually makes reasoned sense:

I like the simple summary I heard from a guest speaker years ago: "If you try to define the Universe, you will lose your mind. If you ignore it, you will lose everything. This is where imagination comes in."

The enormity and complexity of the universe never ceases to amaze me. It is in my moments of attempting to absorb the magnitude of its existence, that I realize yet again what an exercise in futility it is for us, as sentient beings, to even begin to wrap our terminally finite minds around the infinity of our universe!

See... my edits don't use undefined terms like soul and god...

No offense implied in this post, and if you are offended, piss off.
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chucker
 
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2007-01-30, 08:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybobsky View Post
If you edit it like so, it actually makes reasoned sense:

I like the simple summary I heard from a guest speaker years ago: "If you try to define the Universe, you will lose your mind. If you ignore it, you will lose everything. This is where imagination comes in."
Yes, the above naturally makes more sense to an atheist. However, faith is not in the least about being reasonable, rational or sensible. You wouldn't try to define other matters in life such as love or passion on grounds of reason either, because you simply cannot. Religion, faith, monotheism, polytheism, afterlife, super-naturality, metaphysics, etc. don't fit into a scientific pattern because they just aren't intended to. Shoehorning a faux science on top of them like, say, "Intelligent Design" is where things become ridiculous.
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billybobsky
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2007-01-30, 10:39

Actually, I do define emotions in rational ways.

I realized a while ago that I never had faith in anything. I was put through semi-formal religious training as a child, but it was more of a cultural artifact than anything I could particularly be interested in...
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thegelding
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2007-01-30, 10:39

i'm also an atheist, but i have no beef with either God or his followers (as long as they aren't toooo militant about it all...same with atheists...love your God or don't believe in God, just leave me out of your relationship with it)

and God can always change my mind by just talking to me a bit someday...still waiting...

and don't give me that crap of he is trying buy you aren't listening...if the belief is he is omnipotent, well i think he could make me hear

still think this therory is abit interesting, kinda like "the god in the gaps" link above...

i don't understand dark matter...i don't understand God...if A is "i dont understand" and B is "dark matter" and C is "God" then:

A = B and A=C, thus B=C so

dark matter is God...proven mathimatically

personally i have no problem with God being dark matter...why should God be human...

remember God works in mysterious ways...so does dark matter

so if God = mysterious ways
and dark matter = mysterious ways

then...well you guys are bright and get the way this is flowing

g

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Freewell
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2007-01-30, 10:49

If I follow that line of thought though, I could just as easily look at the animal world and say: "Wow, a mouse is grey and has rounded ears; An elephant is grey and has rounded ears, therefore, a mouse is an elephant!"
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2007-01-30, 10:57

I think with your 'A=B and A=C, thus B=C so...' you also just proved that God is a woman.
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CoolToddHunter
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2007-01-30, 11:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegelding View Post
and God can always change my mind by just talking to me a bit someday...still waiting...

and don't give me that crap of he is trying buy you aren't listening...if the belief is he is omnipotent, well i think he could make me hear
Oh, I'm going to.

Actually, I find that in my life, God is pretty much talking all the time, but I'm not really listening so well. Of course he could force me to hear, but I believe that God wants us to make our own choices in this life. He wants us to choose Him, but values the principle of choice over anything else. I also believe that He wants us to be happy, and would you truly be happy if He forced you to listen?

So I say go, find the choices that make you happiest. That's what I'm trying to do, and I feel that God is helping me to do it.
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chucker
 
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2007-01-30, 11:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybobsky View Post
Actually, I do define emotions in rational ways.
No offense, but that sounds nigh-impossible. To me, anyway.
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thuh Freak
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2007-01-30, 11:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
The God of the Gaps theory, then.
Close, but my version has sex and drugs.
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Bryson
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2007-01-30, 11:57

...and is therefore, much, much better.

Mine has a stripper factory and a beer volcano.
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billybobsky
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2007-01-30, 13:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
No offense, but that sounds nigh-impossible. To me, anyway.
i have a mild case of aspergers syndrom. I don't 'do' conventional emotions...
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chucker
 
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2007-01-30, 13:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybobsky View Post
i have a mild case of aspergers syndrom. I don't 'do' conventional emotions...
Interesting!

So, how do you rationalize what you perceive as emotions?
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murbot
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2007-01-30, 13:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
...and is therefore, much, much better.

Mine has a stripper factory and a beer volcano.
Mine too.

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billybobsky
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2007-01-30, 13:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Interesting!

So, how do you rationalize what you perceive as emotions?
I don't really percieve many emotions in myself... I am pretty good at identifying them in others...

Anger for me has a rational cause.
Love has a rational cause, you DON'T just fall in love with someone.
etc etc.

The cause to me is the emotion -- i cannot separate them, i have only fallen out of love with people because I rationalized that my attraction was based upon bad assumptions.

In other mis-wiring of brain -- i broke the enamel off of one of my teeth and my neck hurts when i touch the tooth...
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Freewell
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2007-01-30, 15:47

I have never understood people who claim not to believe in anything that they cannot see, touch, hear, or logically explain. How do they account for such things as temperature, wind and gravity? You cannot for even a split second see, touch or hear any of them, and yet you see their handiwork and essential revelance to human life everywhere you look.

I cannot tell you how many times I have heard from those who have chosen not to have faith in God that "God doesn't love me, and therefore doesn't exist, (because if He doesn't love me and He said He does, then He lied, and therefore is not God) if He doesn't meet me on my terms!" It seems to be the number one argument to "prove" that there is no God. Yet I have seen these very individuals demonstrate their faith in the unseen by using a parachute when skydiving, safety harnesses when rock climbing, and restraint devices on rollercoasters. I have come to the conclusion that it is not so much that they refuse to have faith in something unseen and unexplainable, but rather what they choose to have faith in! You either believe that the universe was intricately created intentionally by Someone far bigger than all of this, or that it all just fell together in a cosmic crap shoot from total disarray and chaos into magnificent functioning order. Either choice requires a great deal of faith. It is simply what you choose to put your faith in.

Then, as Drew mentioned, there are those subjects that truly defy logic, things like supernatural intervention... For instance, when I was barely three, one of my clavicles was basically shattered. The doctor told my parents that it may never heal properly, and that I would need to spend basically every moment, for the next 2-4 months in a sling if they were to have any hope whatsoever of it ever healing. Yet, two weeks later, of my own accord, I simply prayed that "Jesus (would) make my 'shoulder' all better, so I can play with my toys." No fanfare, no religiosity, just a simple prayer from a child's heart. Yep, you got it! The doctor was so astounded after looking at the x-rays glaring truth all over the place the next day, that he looked at my parents, and announced loudly that "This is nothing short of the hand of God!" In fact, I have since had x-rays of that same clavicle taken, and doctors swear that it has never been so much as fractured! It is perfectly new. Then again, I guess there are those who would merely rationalize it all away and tell me that my body just, for whatever reason decided to evolve in super fast-forward motion for those two weeks, or that the doctor misdiagnosed me to begin with and it is all very logical. Like I said... Either persuasion requires faith! The choice is an individual prerogative.
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murbot
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2007-01-30, 15:49

religion explained

(a few curse words)
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Naderfan
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2007-01-30, 16:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by murbot View Post
religion explained

(a few curse words)
George Carlin is great. Thanks for that!
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thegelding
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2007-01-30, 16:14

eh, not to go too far off the dark matter God track, but....

personally i belong to the church of "I Don't Care"...i don't care if there is a God or not...it doesn't affect or effect (can never get those two figured out) anything in my day to day life. whether there is a God or not doesn't change my job, how i treat people...nothing against God, but i do good things and i am nice to people whether he/she/it wants me to or not...so i'm not suddenly nicer because of God, nor will i suddenly decide to kill someone because God tells me too...I Don't Care...he/she/it lives it's life, i live mine...works out best for both of us

now if you believe in a God that watches us and intervines...well that is scary because God could be doing a much much much better job

if you believe in a God that "painted" this world and learned from that and is off "painting" new, better worlds...i'm fine with that

if you believe God started the big bang and is now off vacationing in some galactic equivalent of st thomas till we evolve enough to talk and be of interest to him (think of us still as in the zygote phase...got a lot of growing to do)...i'm fine with that


personally i'm liking this whole God is all the mass and all the pulling and all the tugging of stuff that is "between" space...everything we can't see, can't be, can't touch or taste; but that still gets a sun to spin or affects the orbit of a whole galaxy...that is God

g

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everything is food if you chew hard enough
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billybobsky
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2007-01-30, 18:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freewell View Post
I have never understood people who claim not to believe in anything that they cannot see, touch, hear, or logically explain. How do they account for such things as temperature, wind and gravity? You cannot for even a split second see, touch or hear any of them, and yet you see their handiwork and essential revelance to human life everywhere you look.
You see their handiwork and you cannot see them? What the hell? This bout of illogic just goes to show you cannot try to fit the 'data' to the 'theory.'
Quote:
I cannot tell you how many times I have heard from those who have chosen not to have faith in God that "God doesn't love me, and therefore doesn't exist, (because if He doesn't love me and He said He does, then He lied, and therefore is not God) if He doesn't meet me on my terms!" It seems to be the number one argument to "prove" that there is no God. Yet I have seen these very individuals demonstrate their faith in the unseen by using a parachute when skydiving, safety harnesses when rock climbing, and restraint devices on rollercoasters. I have come to the conclusion that it is not so much that they refuse to have faith in something unseen and unexplainable, but rather what they choose to have faith in! You either believe that the universe was intricately created intentionally by Someone far bigger than all of this, or that it all just fell together in a cosmic crap shoot from total disarray and chaos into magnificent functioning order. Either choice requires a great deal of faith. It is simply what you choose to put your faith in.
Not really. Scratt would surely argue that it isn't faith that makes him believe his parachute will open. His parachute has 1) always openned (otherwise he wouldn't be here), and 2) he more than likely packed a backup -- why? -- because he DOESN'T have faith that 100% of the time the main will open, and the probability that both fail is extremely low. It is probability that the parachuter depends upon and not faith, Freewell. Is probability Faith? you better hope not -- otherwise god is just some quantum entangled state that whose existence is disprovable.

Regardless, you phrase your 'insights' in a telling way. Is the universe truly magnificent functioning order? This is a throwaway phrase that ultimately means nothing. What would be non-functional universe? How would WE know? The very idea that the universe is unique (religious folks use to say their home town was unique, then the earth, then the solar system, then the galaxy... then... you get the idea) is completely unprovable. It isn't even a rational place to begin.

Why don't I believe in god? Why don't you believe in multiple gods? How are these ideas any different?

I don't believe in god because there is enough historical evidence that humans created deities to match their will and needs. Naturalistic gods became the omnicient god you worship. I don't care either way, to be honest, but I can't stand people who argue that their god stands out from the pantheon of all other gods. It is just shear close-minded bullshit.

I don't believe in god because I don't have to. There is no soul in the religion I grew up in, there is no heaven, there is no hell. There is just reality, and the monotheistic god plans life year by year in response to the actions you have taken in the past year. The ethos thereby created is one in which the actions of the now directly affect you in the immediate and real future... but it isn't an ethics that NEEDS a deity to carry it out. It's kind of obvious that if I punch a large brutish man in the chin, he will likely punch back etc etc. Perhaps my parent's religion is just old enough to have an intellectual body that profoundly separates the ethics of the religion from the worship of, in all honesty, a nasty spiteful god. The early christians took this religion and gave it a roman flare -- the pomp and circumstance of polytheism with the benefit of an infinite afterlife. The use of infinity just ensures the types of litterally empty-minded unanswerable questions you proposed -- if you can't understand the universe, how can you even reason that there isn't a god, man? while the early christians passed around a theological joint...

Quote:
Then, as Drew mentioned, there are those subjects that truly defy logic, things like supernatural intervention... For instance, when I was barely three, one of my clavicles was basically shattered. The doctor told my parents that it may never heal properly, and that I would need to spend basically every moment, for the next 2-4 months in a sling if they were to have any hope whatsoever of it ever healing. Yet, two weeks later, of my own accord, I simply prayed that "Jesus (would) make my 'shoulder' all better, so I can play with my toys." No fanfare, no religiosity, just a simple prayer from a child's heart. Yep, you got it! The doctor was so astounded after looking at the x-rays glaring truth all over the place the next day, that he looked at my parents, and announced loudly that "This is nothing short of the hand of God!" In fact, I have since had x-rays of that same clavicle taken, and doctors swear that it has never been so much as fractured! It is perfectly new. Then again, I guess there are those who would merely rationalize it all away and tell me that my body just, for whatever reason decided to evolve in super fast-forward motion for those two weeks, or that the doctor misdiagnosed me to begin with and it is all very logical. Like I said... Either persuasion requires faith! The choice is an individual prerogative.
It's called misdiagnosis, young age, placebo effect, and your parent's word of mouth.

Your parents knew that you prayed? Really? You remember this scenario that clearly? Really?

Every single one of these devine interventions ultimately depends upon the diagnosis going against the worse case scenario doctors will tell people. No wonder it occurs so frequently. The doctors are trying to avoid a lawsuit where the minimal care needed might be too little and too much care... well... there isn't a punishment for that... It is just irrational to BELIEVE there is no rational explanation. Does the rational explanation require faith? No, because it is RATIONAL.

Last edited by billybobsky : 2007-01-30 at 18:33.
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