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Will Apple Ditch Webkit in Safari? Can it?


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Will Apple Ditch Webkit in Safari? Can it?
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drewprops
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Join Date: May 2004
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2022-12-04, 10:04

This morning I followed a thread on Reddit about why "we suddenly hate chrome".


Apparently, Google is apparently working to ensure that ad-blockers won't work with future editions of Chrome and there has been a movement (by some) to move away from Chrome, so maybe this is the beginning of the message to penetrate out to people like me.

It was an educational discussion, and it made me realize that Safari also relies on Webkit.

CAN Apple move away from Webkit?


...

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chucker
 
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2022-12-04, 12:47

Chrome uses Blink, which forked from WebKit long ago. Apple isn’t affected.
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drewprops
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2022-12-04, 13:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Chrome uses Blink, which forked from WebKit long ago. Apple isn’t affected.
The part that I read from the conversation on there was as follows (this is all new to me):


Quote:
Remember what I said about WebKit? Internet Explorer now uses Blink for rendering, which is the rebrand of the WebKit renderer. Opera, Vivaldi, they all use Blink. All of these "Chrome alternative" browsers are essentially just Chrome with a different packager. As Google more heavily modifies the source (Blink, V8, and Chrome), it's going to get harder and harder for those downstreams to continue to support adblockers long-term.

Your literal only other option at this point is Firefox (the Gecko renderer and SpiderMonkey JavaScript runtime). Mozilla are horrible stewards of Firefox, but unless something comes out of left-field, like the browser being developed for SerenityOS porting to mainstream operating systems and becoming popular, it's just Blink and Gecko forever. Gone are Trident, Microsoft's renderer, and Opera's custom renderer.


...
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chucker
 
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2022-12-04, 13:44

Quote:
Remember what I said about WebKit? Internet Explorer now uses Blink for rendering, which is the rebrand of the WebKit renderer.
Blink is not a "rebrand". Blink originated from heavy modifications to WebKit, just like WebKit once (ca. 2002) originated from heavy modifications to KHTML, but that was all the way back in 2013, nine years ago.

Quote:
Opera, Vivaldi, they all use Blink.
This is true.

Quote:
All of these "Chrome alternative" browsers are essentially just Chrome with a different packager.
This is a common sentiment, but I think it's nonsense. A browser is much more than its engine.

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As Google more heavily modifies the source (Blink, V8, and Chrome), it's going to get harder and harder for those downstreams to continue to support adblockers long-term.
This is true, for Blink-based browsers.

Quote:
Your literal only other option at this point is Firefox
On Windows, pretty much true. On macOS, Safari is right there.
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PB PM
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2022-12-04, 14:58

Internet Explore is long dead, why is this even mentioned? On Windows you can get by using MS Edge, which is also webkit based. Firefox is my main browser, both platforms, since it syncs between both and mobile. Problem is some sites are totally broken and don't work in Firefox, because they were made for Chrome. Thus you are forced to use a webkit based browser for some sites.
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Brad
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2022-12-04, 17:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Windows you can get by using MS Edge, which is also webkit based.
Almost! Edge (and Chromium from which it came) uses Blink, not WebKit.

chucker already posted the basic explanation, but I'll reiterate and elaborate for anyone else lurking and curious to learn more...

There are three mainstream browser engines today: WebKit, Blink, and Gecko.

Apple builds WebKit and uses it in Safari. Any browser you get on iOS is effectively a Safari skin because Apple doesn't enable third-party browser engines. This means that, yes, "Firefox" or DuckDuckGo or whatever browser X for iOS is actually just rebranded Safari with a few different bells and whistles. (That's a minor simplification of things, but it's basically true.)

Google builds Blink and uses it in Chrome/Chromium. Blink started as a fork of WebKit many years ago, but the code has significantly diverged for a long time, and Blink and WebKit should not be considered the same today. They share a common ancestor, like humans and hedgehogs, but a lot has changed to both lineages since then. All Chromium-derived browsers including Microsoft Edge, Brave, Vivaldi, and Opera use Blink, and to the best of my knowledge, none of them really modify Blink itself. So, when Google changes something about Blink, all of those other browsers will be getting that change very soon, whether they like it or not.

The Mozilla Foundation builds Gecko and uses it in Firefox. Gecko has been around and evolving on its own path for many, many years. Gecko is like a godfather to modern web browsers. It may not share direct ancestry, but it's been around since long before the others were born. There are a few forks of Firefox/Mozilla, but really Firefox is the only thing using Gecko worth mentioning.

There are also a couple other fringe browser engines that are still actively maintained by enthusiasts, but all their users combined hardly even registers as a rounding error compared to any of the above.

When Google flips the Manifest v3 switch, all the Chromium/Blink-based browsers will soon suffer the same limitations (or gain the same benefits, depending on your perspective). I believe it's very unlikely that any third-party vendor will commit resources to maintaining a fork of the older engine and APIs once Google stops supporting them. To do so would be very expensive in terms of development and maintenance, and it would put the vendor's fork at risk of attack when vulnerabilities are found and patched in Chromium/Blink if they're not also promptly ported and patched in the fork.

Firefox is also going to support Manifest v3 for WebExtensions, but Firefox's/Gecko's implementation won't completely cripple its add-ons like Google will. Mozilla says Firefox will continue to allow add-ons to inspect, intercept, and modify or block network requests at a low level, though they would encourage developers and users not to grant blanket access to all sites and traffic unless actually necessary. For good dynamic ad blockers, it's necessary.

My understanding from the Apple side is that Safari/WebKit's add-on/extension model is already pretty severely crippled. An extension can only apply a pre-built set of filters. uBlock Origin hasn't existed for Safari for many years because it can no longer access and manipulate traffic and content in a meaningful way. That's why you generally just get one big on/off switch for other Safari and iOS ad-blockers today. You get exactly what they offer, and you can't define your own custom rules and filters.

I also switched from Chrome to Firefox many years ago, at least 5-6 years, I think, and I haven't regretted it. I converted my wife several years ago, too, and she's been perfectly happy since getting over the initial adjustment period. I keep a copy of Chromium around just in case I encounter some broken website, but that happens maybe a couple times a year at worst. I genuinely can't remember the last time I had to use Chrome/Chromium for anything.

I could do a lot more soap-boxing about why I use and support Firefox, but I'll save it unless anyone actually wants to hear it.

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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
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2022-12-04, 18:21

Google never cared about my privacy nor my desire for my data to be mine. They want it all so they provide the browser for free... because you are the product. I have Chrome, but only for the ability to compare site renderings with different engines like Brad explained.

I still used Safari day to day on my Mac, but Firefox on my PC VM for work.

For ad blocking/tracking blocking I use Pi-hole. I don't count on browsers to be able to do that, though I do have plugins to manage scripts and such on the PC VM.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
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PB PM
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2022-12-04, 20:40

Brad, I assume Firefox (Gecko) dates back to the original Mozilla web browser, maybe even end of life versions of Netscape Navigator? It was Mozilla that kind of took over Netscape wasn't it? Foggy memories of stuff from that time, since I wasn't following tech as closely until around the time I joined Applenova in 2005.
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drewprops
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Join Date: May 2004
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2022-12-04, 21:54

So what happens if a person sticks with Chrome?

A complex profile of their browsing habits is maintained by Google?

...
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chucker
 
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2022-12-05, 03:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Brad, I assume Firefox (Gecko) dates back to the original Mozilla web browser, maybe even end of life versions of Netscape Navigator? It was Mozilla that kind of took over Netscape wasn't it? Foggy memories of stuff from that time, since I wasn't following tech as closely until around the time I joined Applenova in 2005.
Yes, Mozilla (Mosaic killer) was always the internal name of Netscape, and eventually became the name of their open source org. Netscape itself then disappeared.

Mozilla went through a complete rewrite in the early 2000s, so its code is largely unrelated to Netscape Navigator.
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PB PM
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2022-12-05, 09:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
So what happens if a person sticks with Chrome?

A complex profile of their browsing habits is maintained by Google?

...
Yes, which like everything else they sell to advertisers, and anyone else with interest.
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Brad
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2022-12-05, 11:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
For ad blocking/tracking blocking I use Pi-hole. I don't count on browsers to be able to do that, though I do have plugins to manage scripts and such on the PC VM.
The PiHole is my first line of defense too, and although it does block most of the garbage, it doesn't get everything since not all ads are served on dedicated domains. I keep using uBO not only for its added coverage but also to remove nuisances and improve security. I have uBO to block third-party scripts and iframes by default, for example, and have a few custom HTML/DOM filters. I hate that YouTube has recently started putting an animated logo in the corner of the screen for special holidays and events, but unlike the old Google doodles, you see this distraction on every page load and can't turn it off. So, my `www.youtube.com##picture.ytd-yoodle-renderer` filter does the trick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Brad, I assume Firefox (Gecko) dates back to the original Mozilla web browser, maybe even end of life versions of Netscape Navigator? It was Mozilla that kind of took over Netscape wasn't it? Foggy memories of stuff from that time, since I wasn't following tech as closely until around the time I joined Applenova in 2005.
chucker nailed this one too.

Netscape Navigator (1994) → Netscape Communicator (1997) → Mozilla (1998) → Phoenix (2002) → Firebird (2003) → Firefox (2004)

I actually had a boxed copy with floppy disks of Netscape Navigator back in the mid 90s. I wish I held on to that thing. It would've been a cool keepsake and neat office conversation piece all these decades later.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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chucker
 
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2022-12-05, 11:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
Netscape Navigator (1994) → Netscape Communicator (1997) → Mozilla (1998) → Phoenix (2002) → Firebird (2003) → Firefox (2004)
In the first few weeks, it was known as "m/b" for "Mozilla/Browser", as it was a branch of the bigger Mozilla project that focused purely on the browser.

At the time, the prevailing wisdom was still to do a successor to Netscape Communicator, which was this weird all-in-one thing (web, e-mail, Usenet, chat, …). Netscape 6 did ship that way, and the approach continued in parallel for a while as "Mozilla SeaMonkey". You can still get that, but I'm not sure why anyone would. It's the iTunes approach of a kitchen sink…
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drewprops
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2022-12-05, 13:15

Back in the 90s I would use ResEdit to change the graphics in Netscape so that we could use it onscreen in TV shows - we had zero idea if that made it kosher or not, but I don't think the browser makers had any sort of legal team for licensing usage onscreen at that point, or if they did there was no blowback on us about it.

Man, but time flies.

I guess I need to get my butt in gear to transition to Firefox.

Laying my hands on a Raspberry Pi at this point sounds like a challenge, and rigging a Pi up to my stupid AT&T box will take more mental energy, at which point I will need to go to the thread about using Wi-Fi with my box to figure out how to configure better Wi-Fi coverage and gee whiz there are other more broken things that I need to deal with than this....


...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
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Brad
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2022-12-05, 14:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
Back in the 90s I would use ResEdit to change the graphics in Netscape so that we could use it onscreen in TV shows
Oh man. You just unlocked a core memory of mine!

Would you believe that my career in software engineering started doing basically the same thing? The year was 1994. I was in my 7th grade history/social studies class that had a Macintosh in the back of the room. I was somehow already known as the resident nerd/computer whiz kid and was asked to fix or set up something on that computer. That was when I found ResEdit with its bizarre jack-in-the-box icon, and I fell in love with hacking/modding everything I could get my hands on. Icons, sounds, fonts, menus, buttons, text strings… anything I could edit, I'd try to. Around the same time, I found HyperCard, and that provided my first at-home environment to dabble in actual programming.

I might have copied ResEdit from that computer to a floppy disk to take home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
I guess I need to get my butt in gear to transition to Firefox.
As the old saying goes, the best time to switch to Firefox was 5 years ago. The second best time is now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
Laying my hands on a Raspberry Pi at this point sounds like a challenge, and rigging a Pi up to my stupid AT&T box will take more mental energy, at which point I will need to go to the thread about using Wi-Fi with my box to figure out how to configure better Wi-Fi coverage and gee whiz there are other more broken things that I need to deal with than this....
Good luck with that! No, seriously. Raspberry Pis being sold at MSRP seem to be rarer than gold nowadays. It's so weird. At least the GPU shortage and price gouging made sense with the crypto mining craze, but I don't understand why Pis have suffered the same apparent supply drought. Pi boards and kits that used to cost $40-50 are selling easily for $100-300 on Amazon.

Once you get one, at least you know you have some friends here who have experience to help out. Be aware that if you've never regularly used Linux (have you?) that the Pi operating system is based on the Debian Linux distro. So, that comes with its own challenge. There's a lot to learn, but various community projects (and plenty of YouTube tutorials) try to smooth over the rough technical bits.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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PB PM
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2022-12-05, 15:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
In the first few weeks, it was known as "m/b" for "Mozilla/Browser", as it was a branch of the bigger Mozilla project that focused purely on the browser.

At the time, the prevailing wisdom was still to do a successor to Netscape Communicator, which was this weird all-in-one thing (web, e-mail, Usenet, chat, …). Netscape 6 did ship that way, and the approach continued in parallel for a while as "Mozilla SeaMonkey". You can still get that, but I'm not sure why anyone would. It's the iTunes approach of a kitchen sink…
Wasn’t Firebird a Mac only thing? I they also had a Mozilla branded browser, but it looked like the windows and Linux versions.
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Brad
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2022-12-05, 15:34

Maybe you're thinking of Camino? (Rest in peace. I loved that little browser at the time.)

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PB PM
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2022-12-05, 15:35

Ah yes! I recall having to run nightly builds sometimes to get around bugs, or maybe that was early Safari. Maybe it was both.
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drewprops
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2022-12-05, 16:13

Camino flashback:

https://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=33568

...
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Capella
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2022-12-07, 14:50

I was a Camino loyalist for a long long time. I love and miss that neat icon.
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