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College kids saves hundreds of thousands of acres of land with fraud


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College kids saves hundreds of thousands of acres of land with fraud
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apple007
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2008-12-23, 18:11

Who said any of that?
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Mugge
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2008-12-23, 18:17

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Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
(...)

Believing that the law is always infallible is, imo, a very intellectually lazy position, that risks undermining everything that this nation was founded on.
Especially since law is made by politicians.

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Wrao
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2008-12-23, 18:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple007 View Post
Who said any of that?
You said the only things relatively close to that in this thread.

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Originally Posted by apple007 View Post
And judges are charged with ruling on matters of law, not deciding what the law is, or what the law should be.
and

Quote:
Do the crime, do the time. Plain and simple ... on BOTH sides of the political aisle.
There is no such thing as 'The Law". There are laws and they are interpreted by judges, juries, lawyers, and the court system. Some laws are easier to interpret than others, but even those ones(things like murder, grand theft auto, arson, impersonating a mall santa) require the diligence of specific analysis and judgment based on the circumstances of the case. Sometimes laws are not enforced, on purpose, by the very people who are tasked to enforce them, sometimes they are enforced harshly for minor discretions and tamely for major infractions. That is the nature of the system. It is a lot more complicated than "Do the crime, do the time".
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Maciej
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2008-12-23, 18:47

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
There is no such thing as 'The Law". There are laws and they are interpreted by judges, juries, lawyers, and the court system. Some laws are easier to interpret than others, but even those ones(things like murder, grand theft auto, arson, impersonating a mall santa) require the diligence of specific analysis and judgment based on the circumstances of the case. Sometimes laws are not enforced, on purpose, by the very people who are tasked to enforce them, sometimes they are enforced harshly for minor discretions and tamely for major infractions. That is the nature of the system. It is a lot more complicated than "Do the crime, do the time".
+1, this is something juries and judges do regularly. It's only black/white with things like traffic laws, like speeding.
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Wrao
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2008-12-23, 18:49

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Originally Posted by Maciej View Post
+1, this is something juries and judges do regularly. It's only black/white with things like traffic laws, like speeding.
And even then there is a path for appealing those, which, will not likely get you off the hook(though it has been known to happen, and some lawyers specialize in exploiting vagueness in various speeding laws), but can often lower the cost of the ticket.
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Maciej
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2008-12-23, 19:00

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Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
And even then there is a path for appealing those, which, will not likely get you off the hook(though it has been known to happen, and some lawyers specialize in exploiting vagueness in various speeding laws), but can often lower the cost of the ticket.
Yeah there's a process of appeal, but the moment you are caught breaking a traffic law the guilt is established. For most offenses there is not a trial to establish guilt.

User formally known as Sh0eWax
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Wrao
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2008-12-23, 19:02

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Originally Posted by Maciej View Post
Yeah there's a process of appeal, but the moment you are caught breaking a traffic law the guilt is established. For most offenses there is not a trial to establish guilt.
Absolutely. And boy do they lay that guilt on thick. I have no love for interstate speeding cops.
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apple007
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2008-12-23, 19:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
You said the only things relatively close to that in this thread. ...
Pure nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao
There is no such thing as 'The Law". There are laws and they are interpreted by judges, juries, lawyers, and the court system. Some laws are easier to interpret than others, but even those ones(things like murder, grand theft auto, arson, impersonating a mall santa) require the diligence of specific analysis and judgment based on the circumstances of the case. Sometimes laws are not enforced, on purpose, by the very people who are tasked to enforce them, sometimes they are enforced harshly for minor discretions and tamely for major infractions. That is the nature of the system. It is a lot more complicated than "Do the crime, do the time".
Not in the context of civil disobedience, which is a concept you seem to both endorse and not understand.
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Wrao
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2008-12-23, 19:41

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Originally Posted by apple007 View Post
Pure nonsense.
It is not my fault what you wrote can be misinterpreted, words are funny like that.

Quote:
Not in the context of civil disobedience, which is a concept you seem to both endorse and not understand.
Pure nonsense.
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joveblue
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2008-12-23, 19:47

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Originally Posted by apple007 View Post
The very essence of civil disobedience is a willingness to be punished for one's actions. In such cases, "letting them off easy" is often counterproductive to the cause. More often than not, it's the punishment that brings attention to the issue rather than the underlying act.
Yeah, except that he already achieved what he set out to achieve.
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apple007
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2008-12-23, 19:51

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Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
It is not my fault what you wrote can be misinterpreted, words are funny like that.

Pure nonsense.
Now you're just trolling. You know damn well that I never said laws are always "infallible." I said just the opposite, by pointing out the role of the courts.

Further, in civil disobedience, practitioners do not dispute the validity of "the law" they intentionally break; rather, they break the law on purpose with the goal of getting it repealed or changed. Asking or expecting leniency from the courts doesn't even factor into the equation.
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apple007
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2008-12-23, 19:53

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Originally Posted by joveblue View Post
Yeah, except that he already achieved what he set out to achieve.
If all he set out to achieve was to botch one land deal, then he's no crusader, but rather a fraudster, and deserves the full punishment of the law.
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Wrao
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2008-12-23, 20:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple007 View Post
Now you're just trolling. You know damn well that I never said laws are always "infallible." I said just the opposite, by pointing out the role of the courts.
No, you did not say that, and I apologize for inferring that you did. But you did not say the opposite either, though you may have intended to, you can see how it was lost in translation.

Quote:

Further, in civil disobedience, practitioners do not dispute the validity of "the law" they intentionally break; rather, they break the law on purpose with the goal of getting it repealed or changed. Asking or expecting leniency from the courts doesn't even factor into the equation.
Sure, but he was not trying to repeal any laws about fraud or auctioneering. The peculiarities are what make this case noteworthy. He broke a law(sorta) completely unrelated to his goal, but does that make it a case of civil disobedience just because inso doing he accomplished the goal he had? And if so, how might his sentencing reflect that? versus sentencing for fraud?

Anyway, here is the updated article with some more information as to whether or not he will be tried for this:
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_11289406

Relevant quote:
Quote:
BLM spokeswoman Mary Wilson said Monday the agency was considering what to do next. " This is so unprecedented," she said, "we don't know what our options are."

One of the peculiarities in the case is that he was able to do it at all. It has been suggested that the regulations normally in place to ensure that bidders are capable of paying...etc. were removed by the Bush Administration so that they could streamline the process of selling off land. Depending on the severity of that assertion, there may also be a shade of legal dubiousness surrounding the existence of the auction in the first place. Perhaps his actions will have unforeseen consequences in investigating the process by which we sell off public land. In which case... then you can charge him for civil disobedience
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Bryson
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2008-12-23, 20:26

It's also a case of the papers inflating what he could conceivably be found guilty of. He did commit fraud, but the monetary loss of the seller was not the full value of the land (he wasn't planning to actually take ownership of the land) but rather the cost of the auction process itself.
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zsummers
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2008-12-23, 23:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple007 View Post
The very essence of civil disobedience is a willingness to be punished for one's actions. In such cases, "letting them off easy" is often counterproductive to the cause. More often than not, it's the punishment that brings attention to the issue rather than the underlying act.

If this guy is sincere, he should be perfectly happy to accept whatever punishment is doled out to him. Otherwise, he's no different than a million other pranksters who only show remorse when punishment looms.
You've conflated two things I said, probably because I wasn't perfectly clear:

(1) Civil disobedience is good, and requires a great deal of bravery. I admire it.
(2) I hope this kid gets off easy based on principles of equity.

Your argument is that the good of civil disobedience comes out of the punishment and the attention it draws. But that's not my argument, and I don't particularly agree with it.

What I do agree with: In some extreme cases, it is true that for civil disobedience to be effective, there must be punishment. But in this case--and I believe most cases--this is false. What is effective about civil disobedience is the risk, not the punishment. So I would agree that a provision that states anyone breaking a law only to make a political statement (and who doesn't harm others significantly, etc.) will only be given a slap on the wrist would make civil disobedience ineffective. In fact, it's probably the best way to control the effectiveness of civil disobedience available to a government.

So, to bring it home, I think the kid was brave because of the risk he took. But I don't think it serves any purpose--for his cause or the government--to punish him. It will only make the government look unreasonable. There are plenty of ways to ensure what he's done doesn't become rampant (credit/asset checks, for instance). And punishing him won't greater serve his cause. Given all that, and given that I think what he did was relatively harmless and was an attempt to do good (even if it wasn't good in some people's eyes), I think the equities favor letting him off easy.

So, I don't believe it is counterproductive to his cause to punish him, and I don't believe I misunderstand the nature of civil disobedience because I also think he should be let off.

I am curious if you can articulate another reason to punish him to the full extent allowed by the law, though.

"How could you falter / when you're the Rock of Gibralter? / I had to get off the boat so I could walk on water. / This ain't no tall order. / This is nothing to me. / Difficult takes a day. / Impossible takes a week."
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apple007
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2008-12-24, 00:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by zsummers
I am curious if you can articulate another reason to punish him to the full extent allowed by the law, though.
Sure, a very simple one: He interfered with a lawful auction and committed fraud, to the detriment of taxpayers and the other bidders.

Are you seriously suggesting that anytime someone believes in some pet cause, he or she has a license to do whatever he/she pleases in the name of that cause?

E.g., I'm sure there are at least 365 ardent environmentalists in New York City. Would it be okay, in your mind, if each one blocked traffic over the Brooklyn Bridge for one day each year in the name of improving air quality?
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Mugge
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2008-12-24, 04:31

Wasn't this auction based on some of the last minute legislation by Bush? I remember hearing about how US presidents would make some last minute acts either to please their backers or do something for a cause they couldn't do when they still had to worry about political repercussions.

If this auction was based on such an act by Bush, then I'm going to have a real hard time seeing the morality in it.
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Robo
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2008-12-24, 04:46

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Originally Posted by apple007 View Post
Rabid anti-abortion activists are 100% sure they're doing the right thing and saving lives. But plenty of liberals want them to go to jail for sitting on the sidewalk in front of the clinics.
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torifile
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2008-12-24, 11:03

Did he actually commit fraud or is he just accused of it? I'm serious. We've been tossing around the "fraud" word in here without actually seeing evidence that he did anything fraudulent.

Did he mischaracterize himself to get into the auction? My reading of the events was that there was no "screening" to be able to bid (to speed up the auction to take place before Obama is inaugurated) and that he didn't actually sign anything.

He just held up his placard during the bidding. Is that fraud? Is it even criminal? Like I said, how is this different from someone bidding up an eBay auction?
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apple007
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2008-12-24, 13:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboman View Post
For an aspiring writer, your habit of communicating by emoticon seems counterintuitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by torifile View Post
Did he actually commit fraud or is he just accused of it? I'm serious. We've been tossing around the "fraud" word in here without actually seeing evidence that he did anything fraudulent.

Did he mischaracterize himself to get into the auction? My reading of the events was that there was no "screening" to be able to bid (to speed up the auction to take place before Obama is inaugurated) and that he didn't actually sign anything.

He just held up his placard during the bidding. Is that fraud? Is it even criminal? Like I said, how is this different from someone bidding up an eBay auction?
If it could be proven a person intentionally bid up a valid eBay auction with no ability and/or intention to pay, that would be fraud as well.

Quick question for you, 'torifile': Let's say I have a bunch of buddies in Durham call up and book your practice solid, and then no-show all of the appointments. Would you consider that fraud, and would you be as charitable?
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Bryson
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2008-12-24, 13:39

The question is not "would he like that?" but: "would he call the police?"

Very different question.


Is there a reason you put his name in quotes, by the way? Is that normal? It seems a bit: "....if that is your real name..." Which of course, as we all know, it isn't, any more than Bryson is my name or Apple007 is yours....
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torifile
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2008-12-24, 13:46

Quote:
Quick question for you, 'torifile': Let's say I have a bunch of buddies in Durham call up and book your practice solid, and then no-show all of the appointments. Would you consider that fraud, and would you be as charitable?
Would that be fraud? Umm, no? But it wouldn't happen because I actually screen the people I let schedule appointments with me. Kinda like these auctions normally do when they're not trying to get in under the wire before the next administration comes in.

If I forewent my screening process to fill my schedule, I'd have no one to blame but myself. So, is this your clever way of saying that the people who put the auction on are to blame? Brilliant!
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apple007
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2008-12-24, 14:38

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Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
Is there a reason you put his name in quotes, by the way? Is that normal? It seems a bit: "....if that is your real name..." Which of course, as we all know, it isn't, any more than Bryson is my name or Apple007 is yours....
I've done that on this board, and all other forums on which I post, since time immemorial, as using non-capitalized "names" like torifile in the middle of a sentence looks silly and can be confusing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by torifile View Post
Would that be fraud? Umm, no? But it wouldn't happen because I actually screen the people I let schedule appointments with me. Kinda like these auctions normally do when they're not trying to get in under the wire before the next administration comes in.

If I forewent my screening process to fill my schedule, I'd have no one to blame but myself. So, is this your clever way of saying that the people who put the auction on are to blame? Brilliant!
It wouldn't be fraud? Really? You might want to check with your local authorities on that.
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zsummers
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2008-12-24, 14:40

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Originally Posted by apple007 View Post
Sure, a very simple one: He interfered with a lawful auction and committed fraud, to the detriment of taxpayers and the other bidders.

Are you seriously suggesting that anytime someone believes in some pet cause, he or she has a license to do whatever he/she pleases in the name of that cause?

E.g., I'm sure there are at least 365 ardent environmentalists in New York City. Would it be okay, in your mind, if each one blocked traffic over the Brooklyn Bridge for one day each year in the name of improving air quality?
Thanks for answering my question in a straightforward way. I wasn't sure if you were advocating punishing him based on this or some other grounds.

Again, though, you keep conflating my argument: I'm not arguing that anytime someone believes in a cause, they can do what they want. I am arguing that I think it's admirable when they do, as a general matter

As a separate matter, I think the judge/jury should take it easy should this kid be prosecuted, based on principles of equity. I think I've explained the difference between your 365 rabid environmentalists and this kid. There are simple safeguards to make sure no one does what he has done again that the government probably should be using anyways--i.e. asset checks, etc.--and the harm he has caused is very minimal. I don't think simple safeguards or minimal harm are present in your example, and so I wouldn't argue that equity applies. In other words, I don't think civil disobedience should always get you a lesser punishment; but in cases where the harm is minimal, where letting the person off easy won't necessarily inspire copy-cats, and where there is a sense that the person hasn't performed the actions for a selfish cause, I think taking it easy is appropriate.

"How could you falter / when you're the Rock of Gibralter? / I had to get off the boat so I could walk on water. / This ain't no tall order. / This is nothing to me. / Difficult takes a day. / Impossible takes a week."
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torifile
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2008-12-24, 14:43

Quote:
It wouldn't be fraud? Really? You might want to check with your local authorities on that.
You asked if I'd consider it fraud, as if you were asking my opinion on the matter. I said "no, I wouldn't". Are the authorities supposed to tell me my opinions on things? Should I call and ask them?
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apple007
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2008-12-24, 14:47

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Originally Posted by zsummers View Post
... As a separate matter, I think the judge/jury should take it easy should this kid be prosecuted, based on principles of equity. I think I've explained the difference between your 365 rabid environmentalists and this kid. There are simple safeguards to make sure no one does what he has done again that the government probably should be using anyways--i.e. asset checks, etc.--and the harm he has caused is very minimal. I don't think simple safeguards or minimal harm are present in your example, and so I wouldn't argue that equity applies. In other words, I don't think civil disobedience should always get you a lesser punishment; but in cases where the harm is minimal, where letting the person off easy won't necessarily inspire copy-cats, and where there is a sense that the person hasn't performed the actions for a selfish cause, I think taking it easy is appropriate.
You keep saying the "harm he did was minimal" but I'm not sure that's a fact, and it seems more like your own subjective analysis.

Beyond that, it's not a big leap from doing what this kid did -- a clever yet simple fraud -- to some deep-pocketed environmental groups forming LLCs with a couple million in the bank for "show" purposes, and then making the same type of sham bids to effect the same result.

My point is the same one I was trying to make with my "365 rabid environmentalists in NYC" example above: There's always a next guy willing to do the same thing, or even a little more. If this kid gets let off, you can be sure it will inspire copycat efforts elsewhere, in this and other contexts.
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apple007
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2008-12-24, 14:51

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Originally Posted by torifile View Post
You asked if I'd consider it fraud, as if you were asking my opinion on the matter. I said "no, I wouldn't". Are the authorities supposed to tell me my opinions on things? Should I call and ask them?
Yikes. Are you now saying it's up to each individual person to determine if something is a crime or not according to their own subjective opinion? In this case, the word "fraud" has specific meanings. No one gives a shit what 'torifile' from Durham thinks it means, or wants it to mean when some environmentalist with whom he sympathizes commits something that most others would consider to fit the definition.
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Brad
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2008-12-24, 14:55

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Originally Posted by apple007 View Post
Yikes. Are you now saying it's up to each individual person to determine if something is a crime or not according to their own subjective opinion? In this case, the word "fraud" has specific meanings. No one gives a shit what 'torifile' from Durham thinks it means, or wants it to mean when some environmentalist with whom he sympathizes commits something that most others would consider to fit the definition.
Contradict yourself much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple007 View Post
Would you consider that fraud, and would you be as charitable?
Emphasis added, in case it isn't obvious.

Apparently you "give a shit what 'torifile' from Durham thinks it means" and imply that "it's up to each individual person to determine if something is a crime or not according to their own subjective opinion".

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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apple007
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2008-12-24, 15:03

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Originally Posted by Brad View Post
Contradict yourself much?

Apparently you "give a shit what 'torifile' from Durham thinks it means" and imply that "it's up to each individual person to determine if something is a crime or not according to their own subjective opinion".
Can't read rhetorical questions much?

I don't give a shit how 'torifile' defines the word "fraud." Does anyone doubt he wouldn't be as charitable if someone commits it, as per my example, against his firm, regardless of his protestations here to the contrary? Please. Give me a break.
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torifile
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2008-12-24, 15:12

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Originally Posted by apple007 View Post
Yikes. Are you now saying it's up to each individual person to determine if something is a crime or not according to their own subjective opinion? In this case, the word "fraud" has specific meanings. No one gives a shit what 'torifile' from Durham thinks it means,
As Brad said, you asked me my opinion. If you don't care to hear it, don't ask me for it.
Quote:
or wants it to mean when some environmentalist with whom he sympathizes commits something that most others would consider to fit the definition.
Who said anything about environmentalists in your scenario? You were asking about a hypothetical scenario unrelated to the thread and I responded to it.

So, what about the fact that I'd take steps to schedule only legit people for intakes? I believe in personal responsibility and taking care of oneself. The people who put this auction on didn't and it's their own damned fault for getting played. Should the taxpayers foot the bill for their incompetence in taking appropriate measures to prevent this alleged fraud? Are you proposing that taxpayers should pay for others' incompetence?
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