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I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2006
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Who said any of that?
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Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
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Yarp
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
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You said the only things relatively close to that in this thread.
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M AH - ch ain saw
Join Date: May 2004
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Yarp
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
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And even then there is a path for appealing those, which, will not likely get you off the hook(though it has been known to happen, and some lawyers specialize in exploiting vagueness in various speeding laws), but can often lower the cost of the ticket.
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M AH - ch ain saw
Join Date: May 2004
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Yeah there's a process of appeal, but the moment you are caught breaking a traffic law the guilt is established. For most offenses there is not a trial to establish guilt.
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Yarp
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
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Absolutely. And boy do they lay that guilt on thick. I have no love for interstate speeding cops.
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I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2006
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Yarp
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2006
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Further, in civil disobedience, practitioners do not dispute the validity of "the law" they intentionally break; rather, they break the law on purpose with the goal of getting it repealed or changed. Asking or expecting leniency from the courts doesn't even factor into the equation. |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2006
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Yarp
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
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Anyway, here is the updated article with some more information as to whether or not he will be tried for this: http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_11289406 Relevant quote: Quote:
One of the peculiarities in the case is that he was able to do it at all. It has been suggested that the regulations normally in place to ensure that bidders are capable of paying...etc. were removed by the Bush Administration so that they could streamline the process of selling off land. Depending on the severity of that assertion, there may also be a shade of legal dubiousness surrounding the existence of the auction in the first place. Perhaps his actions will have unforeseen consequences in investigating the process by which we sell off public land. In which case... then you can charge him for civil disobedience |
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Rocket Surgeon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Canadark
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It's also a case of the papers inflating what he could conceivably be found guilty of. He did commit fraud, but the monetary loss of the seller was not the full value of the land (he wasn't planning to actually take ownership of the land) but rather the cost of the auction process itself.
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Avast!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New York?
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(1) Civil disobedience is good, and requires a great deal of bravery. I admire it. (2) I hope this kid gets off easy based on principles of equity. Your argument is that the good of civil disobedience comes out of the punishment and the attention it draws. But that's not my argument, and I don't particularly agree with it. What I do agree with: In some extreme cases, it is true that for civil disobedience to be effective, there must be punishment. But in this case--and I believe most cases--this is false. What is effective about civil disobedience is the risk, not the punishment. So I would agree that a provision that states anyone breaking a law only to make a political statement (and who doesn't harm others significantly, etc.) will only be given a slap on the wrist would make civil disobedience ineffective. In fact, it's probably the best way to control the effectiveness of civil disobedience available to a government. So, to bring it home, I think the kid was brave because of the risk he took. But I don't think it serves any purpose--for his cause or the government--to punish him. It will only make the government look unreasonable. There are plenty of ways to ensure what he's done doesn't become rampant (credit/asset checks, for instance). And punishing him won't greater serve his cause. Given all that, and given that I think what he did was relatively harmless and was an attempt to do good (even if it wasn't good in some people's eyes), I think the equities favor letting him off easy. So, I don't believe it is counterproductive to his cause to punish him, and I don't believe I misunderstand the nature of civil disobedience because I also think he should be let off. I am curious if you can articulate another reason to punish him to the full extent allowed by the law, though. "How could you falter / when you're the Rock of Gibralter? / I had to get off the boat so I could walk on water. / This ain't no tall order. / This is nothing to me. / Difficult takes a day. / Impossible takes a week." |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2006
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Are you seriously suggesting that anytime someone believes in some pet cause, he or she has a license to do whatever he/she pleases in the name of that cause? E.g., I'm sure there are at least 365 ardent environmentalists in New York City. Would it be okay, in your mind, if each one blocked traffic over the Brooklyn Bridge for one day each year in the name of improving air quality? |
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Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
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Wasn't this auction based on some of the last minute legislation by Bush? I remember hearing about how US presidents would make some last minute acts either to please their backers or do something for a cause they couldn't do when they still had to worry about political repercussions.
If this auction was based on such an act by Bush, then I'm going to have a real hard time seeing the morality in it. |
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Less than Stellar Member
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Did he actually commit fraud or is he just accused of it? I'm serious. We've been tossing around the "fraud" word in here without actually seeing evidence that he did anything fraudulent.
Did he mischaracterize himself to get into the auction? My reading of the events was that there was no "screening" to be able to bid (to speed up the auction to take place before Obama is inaugurated) and that he didn't actually sign anything. He just held up his placard during the bidding. Is that fraud? Is it even criminal? Like I said, how is this different from someone bidding up an eBay auction? |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2006
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For an aspiring writer, your habit of communicating by emoticon seems counterintuitive.
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Quick question for you, 'torifile': Let's say I have a bunch of buddies in Durham call up and book your practice solid, and then no-show all of the appointments. Would you consider that fraud, and would you be as charitable? |
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Rocket Surgeon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Canadark
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The question is not "would he like that?" but: "would he call the police?"
Very different question. Is there a reason you put his name in quotes, by the way? Is that normal? It seems a bit: "....if that is your real name..." Which of course, as we all know, it isn't, any more than Bryson is my name or Apple007 is yours.... |
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If I forewent my screening process to fill my schedule, I'd have no one to blame but myself. So, is this your clever way of saying that the people who put the auction on are to blame? Brilliant! |
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I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2006
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Avast!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New York?
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Again, though, you keep conflating my argument: I'm not arguing that anytime someone believes in a cause, they can do what they want. I am arguing that I think it's admirable when they do, as a general matter As a separate matter, I think the judge/jury should take it easy should this kid be prosecuted, based on principles of equity. I think I've explained the difference between your 365 rabid environmentalists and this kid. There are simple safeguards to make sure no one does what he has done again that the government probably should be using anyways--i.e. asset checks, etc.--and the harm he has caused is very minimal. I don't think simple safeguards or minimal harm are present in your example, and so I wouldn't argue that equity applies. In other words, I don't think civil disobedience should always get you a lesser punishment; but in cases where the harm is minimal, where letting the person off easy won't necessarily inspire copy-cats, and where there is a sense that the person hasn't performed the actions for a selfish cause, I think taking it easy is appropriate. "How could you falter / when you're the Rock of Gibralter? / I had to get off the boat so I could walk on water. / This ain't no tall order. / This is nothing to me. / Difficult takes a day. / Impossible takes a week." |
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Less than Stellar Member
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2006
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Beyond that, it's not a big leap from doing what this kid did -- a clever yet simple fraud -- to some deep-pocketed environmental groups forming LLCs with a couple million in the bank for "show" purposes, and then making the same type of sham bids to effect the same result. My point is the same one I was trying to make with my "365 rabid environmentalists in NYC" example above: There's always a next guy willing to do the same thing, or even a little more. If this kid gets let off, you can be sure it will inspire copycat efforts elsewhere, in this and other contexts. |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2006
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Yikes. Are you now saying it's up to each individual person to determine if something is a crime or not according to their own subjective opinion? In this case, the word "fraud" has specific meanings. No one gives a shit what 'torifile' from Durham thinks it means, or wants it to mean when some environmentalist with whom he sympathizes commits something that most others would consider to fit the definition.
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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Emphasis added, in case it isn't obvious. Apparently you "give a shit what 'torifile' from Durham thinks it means" and imply that "it's up to each individual person to determine if something is a crime or not according to their own subjective opinion". The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting. |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2006
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I don't give a shit how 'torifile' defines the word "fraud." Does anyone doubt he wouldn't be as charitable if someone commits it, as per my example, against his firm, regardless of his protestations here to the contrary? Please. Give me a break. |
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Less than Stellar Member
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So, what about the fact that I'd take steps to schedule only legit people for intakes? I believe in personal responsibility and taking care of oneself. The people who put this auction on didn't and it's their own damned fault for getting played. Should the taxpayers foot the bill for their incompetence in taking appropriate measures to prevent this alleged fraud? Are you proposing that taxpayers should pay for others' incompetence? |
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