[BarracksSi]

Yeah, no shit...

How Old Is the Grand Canyon? Park Service Won't Say PEER | Press Release Thursday 28 December 2006 Orders to cater to creationists makes national park agnostic on geology. Washington, DC - Grand Canyon National Park is not permitted to give an official estimate of the geologic age of its principal feature, due to pressure from Bush administration appointees. Despite promising a prompt review of its approval for a book claiming the Grand Canyon was created by Noah's flood rather than by geologic forces, more than three years later no review has ever been done and the book remains on sale at the park, according to documents released today by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER). "In order to avoid offending religious fundamentalists, our National Park Service is under orders to suspend its belief in geology," stated PEER Executive Director Jeff Ruch. "It is disconcerting that the official position of a national park as to the geologic age of the Grand Canyon is 'no comment.'" In a letter released today, PEER urged the new Director of the National Park Service (NPS), Mary Bomar, to end the stalling tactics, remove the book from sale at the park and allow park interpretive rangers to honestly answer questions from the public about the geologic age of the Grand Canyon. PEER is also asking Director Bomar to approve a pamphlet, suppressed since 2002 by Bush appointees, providing guidance for rangers and other interpretive staff in making distinctions between science and religion when speaking to park visitors about geologic issues. In August 2003, Park Superintendent Joe Alston attempted to block the sale at park bookstores of Grand Canyon: A Different View by Tom Vail, a book claiming the Canyon developed on a biblical rather than an evolutionary time scale. NPS Headquarters, however, intervened and overruled Alston. To quiet the resulting furor, NPS Chief of Communications David Barna told reporters and members of Congress that there would be a high-level policy review of the issue. According to a recent NPS response to a Freedom of Information Act request filed by PEER, no such review was ever requested, let alone conducted or completed. Park officials have defended the decision to approve the sale of Grand Canyon: A Different View, claiming that park bookstores are like libraries, where the broadest range of views are displayed. In fact, however, both law and park policies make it clear that the park bookstores are more like schoolrooms rather than libraries. As such, materials are only to reflect the highest quality science and are supposed to closely support approved interpretive themes. Moreover, unlike a library the approval process is very selective. Records released to PEER show that during 2003, Grand Canyon officials rejected 22 books and other products for bookstore placement while approving only one new sale item - the creationist book. Ironically, in 2005, two years after the Grand Canyon creationist controversy erupted, NPS approved a new directive on "Interpretation and Education (Director's Order #6) which reinforces the posture that materials on the "history of the Earth must be based on the best scientific evidence available, as found in scholarly sources that have stood the test of scientific peer review and criticism [and] Interpretive and educational programs must refrain from appearing to endorse religious beliefs explaining natural processes." "As one park geologist said, this is equivalent of Yellowstone National Park selling a book entitled Geysers of Old Faithful: Nostrils of Satan," Ruch added, pointing to the fact that previous NPS leadership ignored strong protests from both its own scientists and leading geological societies against the agency approval of the creationist book. "We sincerely hope that the new Director of the Park Service now has the autonomy to do her job."

http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/122906EB.shtml

[Koodari]

It says that park personnel haven't been allowed to tell the age of the canyon, but not how this kind of orders have been communicated to them, by whom, and what was the result of not obeying.

One would think it would have been quite easy for the staff to ignore any such order. If the people responsible would have wanted to interfere and enforce the order, they would have needed to put things on paper, and that would have been easy to attack. Stalling is not so easy to pinpoint and prove.

[BarracksSi]

Still looking for stuff to back this up (although this PEER group seems to be the ones to break this story in the first place) --

http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/don/46043

And posted five days ago:
http://www.delcotimes.com/site/news....= 18168&rfi=6

Who's going to visit the Grand Canyon soon and can corroborate this story?

[drewprops]

Damn. If this proves to be true it's..... it's..... just so sad. Infuriatingly sad. Incidents like this make it hard to let people know your faith because they can't help but judge the entire group as a whole. "Radical" fundamentalists makeit such a burden to those who aren't.

[ast3r3x]

Saw this, or an article like it on digg. It's ridiculous.

[Moogs]

*shudder*

It's unreal the depths of these peoples' ignorance. I mean it's astounding.

It's like a mental disorder practically, where they live in this world where things they don't want to exist (like evidence galore that all of their biblical theories are wrong), just disappears in their own mind.

"Lalalalaaaa I don't see any of your science so it's not there anymore; I'm right, I'm right, lalalalalalaaaa"

It's like people who talk to an imaginary friend, but instead they're making up imaginary explanations for everything. Seriously. You could almost categorize this as mental illness if you draw comparisons to other similar maladies that involved people living their lives around mysterious or imaginary people / objects / ideas.

[BarracksSi]

The American scientific community is getting more and more upset at the Bush administration almost every day. The stories from my sister and her husband (she's pursuing a PhD in plant genetics, he's doing atomic research; fortunately, they're doing it in Germany for the next two years) about funding cuts and project cancellations are severely disheartening.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Moogs *shudder* It's unreal the depths of these peoples' ignorance. I mean it's astounding. It's like a mental disorder practically, where they live in this world where things they don't want to exist (like evidence galore that all of their biblical theories are wrong), just disappears in their own mind. "Lalalalaaaa I don't see any of your science so it's not there anymore; I'm right, I'm right, lalalalalalaaaa" It's like people who talk to an imaginary friend, but instead they're making up imaginary explanations for everything. Seriously. You could almost categorize this as mental illness if you draw comparisons to other similar maladies that involved people living their lives around mysterious or imaginary people / objects / ideas.

Ayup. It's hard to say where the line between extreme religion and schizophrenia is.

And, assuming you actually manage *that* one, then what's the line between moderate religion and schizophrenia? And so on... it's just shades of the same thing, IMO.

[Chinney]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Ayup. It's hard to say where the line between extreme religion and schizophrenia is. And, assuming you actually manage *that* one, then what's the line between moderate religion and schizophrenia? And so on... it's just shades of the same thing, IMO.

Schizophrenia and general insanity are not all that uncommon in the scientific community either. And aside from a few million bible thumpers and literalists located mostly in parts of the U.S. and Canada, most religious people don't have problems with the geological time scale. (Yes, I'm religous...and that's why the Rats are beating the Cellar Dwellers. )

[Moogs]

Yah let's be clear: this isn't everyday Christians sneaking around behind people's backs and replacing scientific information at National Parks with biblical BS... it's the far right-wing, born-again, everything-in-the-bible-is-literal-truth nutbags. Probably about 10-15% of all Christians if I had to make an educated guess. Several years ago that number was about 5% probably. Sadly it didn't stay that way. For whatever their arrogance and ignorance, these people are persuasive when it comes to moving uneducated or uncritical minds to their way of thinking.

[Banana]

Grand Canyon is supposed to be million years old?

Bull. Shit.

Everyone know that Grand Canyon was made back in 1970's when Chuck Norris kicked a pebble!

I swear, doesn't anyone read the frickin' geology textbook!

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Moogs Yah let's be clear: this isn't everyday Christians sneaking around behind people's backs and replacing scientific information at National Parks with biblical BS... it's the far right-wing, born-again, everything-in-the-bible-is-literal-truth nutbags. Probably about 10-15% of all Christians if I had to make an educated guess. Several years ago that number was about 5% probably. Sadly it didn't stay that way. For whatever their arrogance and ignorance, these people are persuasive when it comes to moving uneducated or uncritical minds to their way of thinking.

Thank you.

[LudwigVan]

The National Park Service--part of the U.S. Department of the Interior--apparently has no problem with publishing geological dates older than 4004 B.C. on their Grand Canyon web site:

The exposed geologic strata - layer upon layer from the basement Vishnu schist to the capping Kaibab limestone - rise over a mile above the river, representing one of the most complete records of geological history that can be seen anywhere in the world. Geologic formations such as gneiss and schist found at the bottom of the Canyon date back 1,800 million years.

[Majost]

Yeah, but they still know that god just made it *look* like it was that old when *he* created the world 6000 years ago.

[hiltond]

Originally Posted by Majost Yeah, but they still know that god just made it *look* like it was that old when *he* created the world 6000 years ago.

No. The devil made it appear older then it is to draw you away from god.

[Powerdoc]

It's a shame, that all this creationist thing, tend to ridicule a whole and great nation.
USA, have more patents, and scientific discoveries than any other countrie, and those creationist tend to give to USA the reputation of an obcurantist nation (wich as a whole it isn't)

More than 99 % of the christians of the world, believe that the world is older than 6000 years

[ast3r3x]

Originally Posted by Powerdoc It's a shame, that all this creationist thing, tend to ridicule a whole and great nation. USA, have more patents, and scientific discoveries than any other countrie, and those creationist tend to give to USA the reputation of an obcurantist nation (wich as a whole it isn't) More than 99 % of the christians of the world, believe that the world is older than 6000 years

Who ever said they french were stuck up? Powerdoc loves real american christians!

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Powerdoc USA, have more patents

Although, some would note that our patent system is far too lenient, as recent abuse of the system has shown.

[Powerdoc]

Originally Posted by Brad Although, some would note that our patent system is far too lenient, as recent abuse of the system has shown.

I guess you are speaking of the I pod

[BarracksSi]

Originally Posted by Moogs Yah let's be clear: this isn't everyday Christians sneaking around behind people's backs and replacing scientific information at National Parks with biblical BS... it's the far right-wing, born-again, everything-in-the-bible-is-literal-truth nutbags. Probably about 10-15% of all Christians if I had to make an educated guess. Several years ago that number was about 5% probably. Sadly it didn't stay that way. For whatever their arrogance and ignorance, these people are persuasive when it comes to moving uneducated or uncritical minds to their way of thinking.

It's because it's impossible to counter those losers with simple logic (see some of the locked threads around AN). They refuse to listen, so they continue to spout their idiocy until someone on the other side finally goes, "Okay, alright, dammit, I guess you have Freedom Of Speech on your side, so go ahead with your drivel..."

It's either that or get sued by them for restriction of speech and religious freedoms.

After all, it's the Evangelicals' job to yell and shout and try to convert every carbon-based life form that wanders within earshot. Too bad everyone else hates them.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Moogs Yah let's be clear: this isn't everyday Christians sneaking around behind people's backs and replacing scientific information at National Parks with biblical BS... it's the far right-wing, born-again, everything-in-the-bible-is-literal-truth nutbags. Probably about 10-15% of all Christians if I had to make an educated guess. Several years ago that number was about 5% probably. Sadly it didn't stay that way. For whatever their arrogance and ignorance, these people are persuasive when it comes to moving uneducated or uncritical minds to their way of thinking.

Let's not forget that nearly half of all Americans believe in a strict, literal interpretation Biblical creationism and that their god "created man in his present form sometime in the past 10,000 years."

That's a frighteningly larger number of nutbags than just 10-15% of Christians.

[BarracksSi]

Originally Posted by Brad That's a frighteningly larger number of nutbags than just 10-15% of Christians.

It is, appropriately, half of the population, as in, half of the population is dumber than average.

[Fooboy]

Don't muslims believe in the 6 day creation as well?

The Qur'an

007.054 YUSUFALI: Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!

Let's dish it all round guys, don't forget about the muslims.

.

[BarracksSi]

Finally, I feel like a minority. Although 16% is still a bigger market share than Apple... lol

[Moogs]

Originally Posted by Brad Let's not forget that nearly half of all Americans believe in a strict, literal interpretation Biblical creationism and that their god "created man in his present form sometime in the past 10,000 years." That's a frighteningly larger number of nutbags than just 10-15% of Christians.

I don't buy those poll numbers at all. The sample could be skewed in any number of ways. I would say at most the number is 20% or maybe a little more. Still even 20% is pretty damn scary. That's one in 5 people unable to think their way out of a paper bag.

[Chinney]

Originally Posted by Fooboy Don't muslims believe in the 6 day creation as well?

The '6 day creation' thing is not the issue. The issue is Christians or Muslims who take passages like that literally. Brad's link suggets that almost 50% of Christians in the U.S are in this category. That proportion seems very high to me. It may depend on how the question was asked.

[BarracksSi]

Gallup is one of the most well-used polling services on the planet. If that poll's error was +/- 5% -- or even 10 % -- it's both scary and aggravating that over 80% of the American population believes that God was involved in the natural history of the planet, whether through straight-up creation or by guiding evolution.

The funny thing is, many of the adamant anti-evolutionists demand proof, while they settle on mere faith for their own beliefs. That's hypocritical idiocy at a high level.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by BarracksSi Gallup is one of the most well-used polling services on the planet.

This is exactly why I chose that link to post; its source was Gallup.

Originally Posted by Fooboy Don't muslims believe in the 6 day creation as well?

Jews too. Remember, the "Old Testament" is just the Christian name for Tanakh, the Hebrew Bible. This creation myth comes from the first book, first chapter.

[billybobsky]

First paragraph.

And the Jewish Bible is the Torah.

The TaNaK is a non-existent compilation of religious texts...

[Brad]

Ah, mea culpa. I just now checked and it looks like TaNaK is Torah + N'vi-im + K'tuvim.