[Moogs]

...you could live in Asbest, Russia. It's where the asbestos is mined and toxic clouds of asbestos land on your window sill, in your garden, on your floors, in your car and everywhere else. I am not making this up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/bu...tos-habit.html

Your turn.

[screensaver400]

You could live in a country where heads of government of both parties spy on nearly every citizen, likely in violation of their own laws, and, when exposed, charge that person with espionage, even though he went to the media and not a foreign government.

[Moogs]

Yer doin' it wrong.

[Bryson]

We don't all live the the 'Murica, Moogs.

[JohnnyTheA]

Originally Posted by screensaver400 You could live in a country where heads of government of both parties spy on nearly every citizen, likely in violation of their own laws, and, when exposed, charge that person with espionage, even though he went to the media and not a foreign government.

That covers most western countries. I'd rather live in one of those countries than one of the third world countries where they don't have such a security apparatus. I'm sure Liberia doesn't have the resources to spy.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by screensaver400 You could live in a country where heads of government of both parties spy on nearly every citizen, likely in violation of their own laws, and, when exposed, charge that person with espionage, even though he went to the media and not a foreign government.

And a country where education, research and social programs haven't been prioritized financially, even though those are major problems its society has been facing. Instead, let's have some far more costly wars and imprison more citizens.

[Naderfan]

You could fire warning shots at your abusive husband, not hitting or wounding anyone, and end up getting 20 years.

20 Years for Warning Shots

[Capella]

Originally Posted by Naderfan You could fire warning shots at your abusive husband, not hitting or wounding anyone, and end up getting 20 years. 20 Years for Warning Shots

While a man who fired a shot that actually killed an unarmed person gets off entirely.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by Capella While a man who fired a shot that actually killed an unarmed person gets off entirely.

I think Zimmerman's acquittal was probably the correct result based on the letter of the law and what evidence there was. The conviction of the woman firing warning shots is completely fubar though... Imagine if Zimmerman were black and Martin were white, or if that woman in the other trial were white...

Zimmerman is a douchebag for racial profiling and following Martin, but that really doesn't mean it's okay for him to get attacked. It was a situation where two idiots had plenty of chances to walk away, and instead one of them got killed.

[Luca]

It could be worse. I could live in Florida.

[billybobsky]

The law is at fault here, no doubt. This would have easily been manslaughter or maybe murder without the stand your ground law...

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Eugene Imagine if Zimmerman were black and Martin were white, or if that woman in the other trial were white...

Indeed.

[addison]

Originally Posted by Eugene I think Zimmerman's acquittal was probably the correct result based on the letter of the law and what evidence there was. The conviction of the woman firing warning shots is completely fubar though... Imagine if Zimmerman were black and Martin were white, or if that woman in the other trial were white... Zimmerman is a douchebag for racial profiling and following Martin, but that really doesn't mean it's okay for him to get attacked. It was a situation where two idiots had plenty of chances to walk away, and instead one of them got killed.

Of course if both Zimmerman and Martin were both black nobody would even give a crap yet alone know about the incident.

The woman in Florida get screwed for sure but she didn't help her case by fleeing the house and then grabbing a gun from the garage and going back in to confront the husband. I don't think SYG really covers that.

[billybobsky]

And if they were both illegal aliens, we'd hear no end about how illegals abuse the system and get away with murder... Anyway, changing their race does nothing -- the incident occurred because Zimmerman felt that Martin was an outsider. He felt this way because Martin was black. There's no way to get around this.

[Naderfan]

Originally Posted by addison Of course if both Zimmerman and Martin were both black nobody would even give a crap yet alone know about the incident. The woman in Florida get screwed for sure but she didn't help her case by fleeing the house and then grabbing a gun from the garage and going back in to confront the husband. I don't think SYG really covers that.

CNN Story

Here's a slightly more in-depth article on the situation. Apparently, she went back in because she forgot her keys. I can imagine my thought process on getting to the car and realizing I didn't have my keys (which I always forget, even without a very tense situation): "I need my keys to get out of here, I don't want him to have my house keys, but if I go back in there, he might hurt or kill me. I know, I'll bring my gun, and if he makes a move toward me while getting my keys, I can shoot if necessary."

And even if that wasn't her thought process, there are so many cases where abuse victims end up being killed by their abusers, especially after they show they're serious about leaving, and there's so little cops can do in those situations (until it's too late) that frankly, I can understand wanting to put some fear into him. I don't know if that's what happened, but I definitely don't think that'd be worth 20 years in prison.

Mandatory minimums are a terrible idea in general, but that's perhaps a whole different discussion.

[Eugene]

Zimmerman's defense did not invoke the SYG law. He said he was pinned to the ground and could not retreat/flee. The justification for discharging his firearm was plainly self-defense. Neither the law, nor the result of the Zimmerman trial are really what's wrong. It's the discrepancy in convictions based on race (and other profiles) in other trials at the core of the issue.

[addison]

Someone in the comments of that flimsy piece linked to earlier posted the States motion as well as the deposition of the husband. He's a real piece of work. Still though, she would've been better off just getting out of there once she left the house.

[JohnnyTheA]

Originally Posted by billybobsky And if they were both illegal aliens, we'd hear no end about how illegals abuse the system and get away with murder... Anyway, changing their race does nothing -- the incident occurred because Zimmerman felt that Martin was an outsider. He felt this way because Martin was black. There's no way to get around this.

That is your interpretation/hope. The evidence of the trial didn't show this to be the case. He didn't profile based on race. He was a wannbe cop with a gun. But that is legal in Florida. Don't like it? Change the law if you are a resident therre.

[Naderfan]

Originally Posted by JohnnyTheA That is your interpretation/hope. The evidence of the trial didn't show this to be the case. He didn't profile based on race. He was a wannbe cop with a gun. But that is legal in Florida. Don't like it? Change the law if you are a resident therre.

He did profile on race, when he saw a black kid in his neighborhood and assumed he was up to no good. I would be willing to bet a lot of money that if it was a white kid, he wouldn't have thought twice about it. That's where the race issue comes in. And the fact that the defense attorney literally told the jury NOT to look at the big picture, to NOT use common sense when reaching their verdict should be a big red flag.

And I keep hearing this "if you don't like it, change the law" line in response to a lot of issues, as a way to say "quit talking about this." But talking about the issue, doing public protests, challenging assumptions, petitions, etc. those are all ways of changing laws. It's not so easy as just voting in the next election - with gerrymandering, dysfunctional legislatures, and more and more voting restrictions, voting has less and less power for the average person.

[addabox]

One thing that pisses me the hell off is the way racism is so deeply embedded in our culture that it allows us to blithely dismiss its operations as common sense or business as usual or nonexistent. Then, when it gets noticed, we can claim that that the real problem is noticing. That racism is conjured into being by talking about.

Its all about hoodies. Or not being a regular in the neighborhood. Or fearing for your life in a fist fight. Anything to avoid admitting that a black kid signifies violence and criminality, whenever, where ever.

Does anyone really want to argue that a fight between two shit kickers in a Florida bar parking lot that gets one shit kicker killed would be treated the same way as the Zimmerman case? Because one shit kicker thought his life was in danger? If so, why not?

Because a drunk shit kicker isn't generally regarded as a terrifying nexus of violence and menace. The entire case hinged on the idea that a black kid was somehow inherently threatening, both to attract attention in the first place and to require shooting as the result. Because once you're in an altercation with a black kid, all bets are off. Because, you know, BLACK. So very very different from when old Randy is on top of you throwing punches because, you know, WHITE.

And that's racism so intrinsic to the situation and outcome that it allows the so inclined to pretend like it's irrelevant and has more to do with human nature or something.

I mean, we would be so better off is this shit would just speak its name. Stand up and say, yes, based on stuff I've heard tell about black folk, black folk are scary and must be treated by different standards than white folk. Always. Especially young black men, who are "thugs" until proven otherwise. Just prudent. Own it, defend it. Just don't pretend like it isn't the deal.

[Moogs]

Originally Posted by Luca It could be worse. I could live in Florida.

Luuuuucaaaaa! LUCA IS DOIN' IT RIGHT! So many of you are doin' it wrong. You see how he made it about Florida and included an excellent image, without brining up America's case du jour? Or how I brought up Bestos Russia without bringing up Snowden?

For the love of of the flying tortellini beast, properly glazed doughnuts and all that we hold dear... do it right. And from now on everyone must include an awesome image.


BRAD: you should delete all of these "Trayvon Martin debate" posts, in a show of love for this thread and its glorious intent.


Let me say also that some of you may work for a cut-throat boss, and you never tell him off, but it could be worse.... you could be a real chicken.

[Luca]

Originally Posted by Moogs Luuuuucaaaaa! LUCA IS DOIN' IT RIGHT! So many of you are doin' it wrong. You see how he made it about Florida without brining up America's case du jour? Or how I brought up Bestos Russia without bringing up Snowden?

Well I've pretty much stopped following the news. I see headlines mentioned on the forums I go to, but I almost exclusively listen to science podcasts now. Somehow, listening to stuff about global warming is less depressing than hearing about the latest news headlines about what Congress is not doing or whatever. I remember hearing about this Zimmerman incident when it happened and it only barely registered a tiny blip on my own radar this time. I honestly don't care; it sucks that someone died but that happens a lot.

[Moogs]

You still did it right, and you should be commended.

[Moogs]

It could be worse... you could be forced to pay $300 fees for looking at too much pr0n like Murbot.