[Partial]

Originally Posted by Robo Continuing this discussion from the soon-to-be-closed thread in Speculation & Rumors: Maybe not. But it matters if some iPhones are 320 dpi and some iPhones are 295. Let's say you wanted to make an app with a one-inch-wide circular button. You'd either have to make two buttons of slightly different sizes in pixels, or ignore it and have the button be slightly different sizes on different iPhones. Neither seems ideal. That's why I'm in favor of Apple "doing it right" with the addition of a second screen size at the same dpi. Adding more pixels, not blowing them up. That way, if you were making a game, say, and you wanted the HUD to be the same size on all iPhones, you wouldn't have to make two different sets of graphics for the HUDs in the corners — players would just have a better view of the game in between them. It helps that I think Apple has more room to grow into the top and bottom bezels of the iPhone than the sides, meaning any larger screen would lend itself better to 16:9/9:16 aspect ratio than a blown-up 3:2/2:3. So I think they'd change the size, pixel count and aspect ratio of the iPhone in one clean swoop — they'd change everything but the ppi.

I don't think you'd have to make two sets of graphics. The resolution is the same. The DPI is different. It might look "fuzzier". I say "fuzzier" instead of fuzzier because in reality no one will be able to see the difference.

Images are measured in pixels, not inches, therefore it will scale just fine.

You guys asking "what do you get with a 4" screen of the current res": The answer is less typos. Much fewer typos because the keys in the keyboard will be bigger. It will be much easier to type. I have some sausage fingers and I have typos constantly on the iPod touch I use daily.

[ezkcdude]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 They're both. They have to be knocked over the head with razzle-dazzle every 9-12 months, otherwise they're "left out" or underwhelmed. I see a solid, attractive update to an already-amazing device.

But today things have to be amazinger.

I guess what I'm saying is...where's the Magicalness?

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses options are good. The iMac should have never gone beyond 15" too!

That's a computer. You do many different things. I wouldn't want to lay out a double-spread on 15" if I can do it on 20" or 21.5".

Options are good, yes. When it makes sense or counts.

It doesn't undermine/undo what I said about Apple and how maybe they've determined that size for reasons other than "everyone else is doing it"?

I don't use my iMac with one hand/thumb, having to traverse the screen and reach different areas/corners. I have a mouse that I can adjust to easily cross those spans, be they 15" or 21.5".

It's different with something you hold in your hand, and that many people use while cradled and with one thumb.

"The iMac should've stayed at 15-inches" doesn't make sense in this discussion. It's not bound by the same things something like a phone is.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 I don't see the increase of half-an-inch, if everything is just going to "scale up" and get a bit larger, much to get excited about. If they're going to go big with a larger screen, it would be nice if it was large enough to truly matter...accommodate an extra row and column of app icons, allow developers to access new, unused space in their tweaked apps, etc.

This. (Thought I think it'd be an extra row of app icons, but no extra columns — the idea would be to keep the iPhone as close to its current size as possible, and grow the display into the blank margins on the top and bottom. It'd get a smidge wider and a smidge taller, but surprisingly little for a 50% larger display.)

Originally Posted by pscates Get used to the 3.5" (or start looking elsewhere if that's truly an important factor), gang...I think it's going to be around longer than some of you will be able to stomach.

I don't think the 3.5" iPhone would go away. I think they'd have both.

Maybe Apple thinks a 3.5" display is perfect and should never change, I don't know. But if they were to ever change it, that's how I think they'd do it. I don't think they'd just blow up the display and call it a day.

I don't know whether I'm more excited for the iPhone 4S, or relieved that stupid wedge iPhone isn't real.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Partial I don't think you'd have to make two sets of graphics. The resolution is the same. The DPI is different. It might look "fuzzier". I say "fuzzier" instead of fuzzier because in reality no one will be able to see the difference. Images are measured in pixels, not inches, therefore it will scale just fine.

No, it wouldn't "scale just fine". The iOS UI elements rely heavily on physical size to match those of fingers.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Bonn89 the idea that I'm upgrading to ANOTHER "recycled design" kind of stings.

Everything's Amazing & Nobody's Happy

[Wrao]

As for naming. At what point does iPhone become just "iPhone"? you know, like iMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis...etc.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 "The iMac should've stayed at 15-inches" doesn't make sense in this discussion. It's not bound by the same things something like a phone is.

In some ways it was for many years of the iMac's existence. I guess you just don't remember.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Partial I don't think you'd have to make two sets of graphics. The resolution is the same. The DPI is different. It might look "fuzzier". I say "fuzzier" instead of fuzzier because in reality no one will be able to see the difference. Images are measured in pixels, not inches, therefore it will scale just fine.

People's fingers are measured in inches and millimeters, not pixels. Touch UIs are designed for people's fingers, and people's fingers don't get bigger, not even slightly, when they buy a lower-dpi phone.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by Robo I don't know whether I'm more excited for the iPhone 4S, or relieved that stupid wedge iPhone isn't real.

who says it isn't real? Obviously it was an actual prototype. It wouldn't surprise me if there are next generation prototypes around.

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by ezkcdude But today things have to be amazinger. I guess what I'm saying is...where's the Magicalness?

A much faster device, better camera, a Star Trek level interaction/assistant underpinning, a proven design, improved antenna, the addition of a new U.S. carrier (we would've freaked about this a year ago...we're so jaded ), a new high-end 64GB model people have been wanting for ages.

It's evolutionary, not revolutionary.

Just like the 3Gs in 2009. It didn't spell doom and "oh shit!" then, so why is everyone losing their minds today? Especially when these improvements, along with iOS 5 and iCloud, will be so much more dramatic?

Every event/unveiling probably can't be a January 2007 or March 2010 mindblower. It's the between-stuff, the small and steady steps forward, that matter here.

What bothers me most about today isn't anything Apple's done, said or released.

It's all the people - including supposedly educated, savvy journalists and pundits - who are going to try and equate today's modest, but solid, upgrades to Steve's departure and write one stupid-ass "has Apple lost its iMojo?" article after another for the next three months.



Apple is the only one of these outfits who'll be standing and thriving 10 years from now. They'll still be the ones who truly matter, and that others are looking to jump on, compares themselves to, outdo, emulate, etc.

Mark my words.

In fact, I want someone here to engrave that somewhere, with my name attached...

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses In some ways it was for many years of the iMac's existence. I guess you just don't remember.

Yeah, that's it. I've only lived and breathed this silly shit for the past decade or so...I'm happy to tell you every single thing about the iMac's first 4-5 years of existence, if needed. I can't tell you what I had for breakfast Sunday morning, but I can tell you all about the lime iMac DV my friend used to have.

Actually, I "remember" just fine. I had the iMac DV (15") and the iMac G4 (15"). I used three different jellybean iMacs at various jobs over several years. I've still got my DV.

They were great, and I used them to their fullest. And I was happy to see 17" and, eventually, 20" models come around. More windows, palettes, etc. I could open, or larger posters or pages I could work on and still see at regular, zoomed-out sizes. It took Apple reworking things, trying other designs (15" and 20" displays in the jellybean enclosures might've gotten a bit large, although they did indeed have those 17" and 20" CRT three-legged Studio Displays that I always thought would make a good foundation for a larger iMac (before the flat-screen iMac G4 came along and surprised everyone).

I'm not doing that sort of thing with my phone.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses In some ways it was for many years of the iMac's existence. I guess you just don't remember.

No, it never was. Mac OS was always a stacked-window environment. Aside from the Dock, its basic layout is unchanged from 1.0, with the GUI having scaled from 512x342 to 2560x1600. How? By placing more elements (additional windows, or additional controls inside those windows) on the screen.

The iOS (and Android, and Windows Phone, and Palm webOS, and the list goes on) UIs have no such thing. They're single-window and full-screen. Android applies, as I understand it, a mixture of scaling and relayout; iOS only offers the former.

A change in screen size would mean either further increasing the resolution, either breaking the whole "the app is the device" concept by adding further OS-wide UI elements such as an enhanced status bar, or by offering that additional space to the application, thus requiring massive changes to Cocoa Touch and breaking backwards compatibility big time, or decreasing the density, thus breaking years of assumptions of physical UI control size.

Oh, and meanwhile, you also break the "you can reach the whole screen with your fingers" assumption, especially for people with smaller hands than mine, which probably make up the overwhelming majority of the population.

But no, you're right. It's totally like the 15-inch iMac. They should make a 7-inch iPhone in 2014.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Yeah, that's it. I only live and breathe this silly shit for the past decade or so... Actually, I "remember" just fine. I had the iMac DV (15") and the iMac G4 (15"). I used three different jellybean iMacs at various jobs over several years. I've still got my DV. My friends had them. I used another 15" iMac on a contract job. I remember it all. I'm happy to quote every feature/spec of the first five years of the iMac back to you if you'd like? It's sad that I can even do it...I can't remember what I had for breakfast Sunday, but I can tell you everything about a lime or grape iMac DV from late 1999. They were great, and I used them to their fullest. And I was happy to see 17" and, eventually, 20" models come around. More windows, palettes, etc. I could open, or larger posters or pages I could work on and still see at regular, zoomed-out sizes. I'm not doing that sort of thing with my phone.

Is Apple always right in your mind? Can nothing ever be better or improved unless they do so first and say so? you just wait to be told you need something or that its good for you?


the funny thing is there are countless phones out there with 4" and larger screens... and they work fine... and are very popular. But I'm guessing you never used any of them, because Apple doesn't make them. And you probably think they are riddled with usability problems... because Apple doesn't make them.

[709]

I'm completely happy with everything about this.

So sue me.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by chucker No, it never was. Mac OS was always a stacked-window environment. Aside from the Dock, its basic layout is unchanged from 1.0, with the GUI having scaled from 512x342 to 2560x1600. How? By placing more elements (additional windows, or additional controls inside those windows) on the screen.

I'm responding from a user's point of view... not a technical point of view. Pscates is making excuses that Apple knows what is best and has done user surveys and that the 3.5" screen is what it is, not because of technical issues but because of user preference and usability and that Apple knows that the 3.5" screen is the best form factor.

You missed the point in your eagerness to have an attempt to show off your technical knowledge.


The iMac stayed at 15" for 5 years, which was ridiculous at the time. There was strong demand for larger sizes. And Apple resisted... because they thought the form factor/weight/style/usability was correct. And tons of people, pscates types... justified it for 5 years and then when Apple finally deemed it necessary to have bigger screen sizes, they blindly agreed.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by ezkcdude But today things have to be amazinger. I guess what I'm saying is...where's the Magicalness?

Uh, Siri?

That shit is bananas. And everybody seems to be ignoring it. I mean, just look at this:

Originally Posted by Partial I'm really disappointed. It's bulky by today's standards. It's bulky with a tiny screen. That's a horrible combination. Certainly not bleeding edge or pushing technology forward. The design of the device leaves a lot to be desired. Lame.

Like, what the hell, right?

I literally wasn't sure if he was serious. It's practically self-parody. If I were to write an obviously sarcastic mock dismissal of the iPhone from the perspective of a spec whore, I would write virtually the same thing.

The iPhone 4S might not push numbers forward, in the way Partial would like. But it sure as hell pushes technology forward. Anyone who's ever tried to use any other voice control in their life can see that.

And to be honest, the 4S is no slouch with the numbers either, ZOMG 3.5" SCREEN or no.

[Chinney]

Clearly Apple iPhone fans have a reason to be disappointed.  The new iPhone 4S is 5-4S less good than an iPhone 5 would have been with, approximately, I would suggest 1 > 5-4S > .3, based on my initial calculations. 

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses Is Apple always right in your mind? Can nothing ever be better or improved unless they do so first and say so? you just wait to be told you need something or that its good for you?

I ding Apple plenty here and everyone here knows it, and has seen it.

I can point you to five threads right now where I'm on their case about something I don't agree with or see as less-than-ideal.

To answer your question: everything can be "improved on". That's exactly what they did today.

I gave my (realistic) reasons about why maybe the 3.5" display exists. I backed it up, with how Apple gets into the nitty-gritty and sweats the details more than most companies in this field (is that even up for debate, knowing what you know?) They've had time to change it, but they must feel it's the way to go for this stuff. I'm sure 4"+ works for others. That wasn't my point, ever. It might, however, be Apple's, and what they feel/believe about it?

And it's working out pretty well for them.

In any case, they're the ones who haven't seen fit to change it after five revisions/four-plus years! I'm simply pointing it out. I'm not the one calling the shots. So don't bark at me about it, go stand on their balls.

[PB PM]

Spec wise nice upgrade. I feel no pressing desire to upgrade from the iPhone 4 though. I'll wait for at least another year before upgrading.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by 709 I'm completely happy with everything about this. So sue me.

Me, too. It was largely a dull keynote, but the 4S is a perfectly solid product, and I'll be upgrading for a 3G. After all, four or possibly eight times the RAM (from 128 to 512 or 1024 MB), a much, much faster CPU and GPU (412 MHz single-core to probably 800-1000 MHz dual-core), lots of random added features (compass, gyroscope, video recording, much better camera, much better GPS), improved cellular (from 3.6 Mbit/sec down/384 kbit/sec up to 14.4 Mbit/sec down/5.8 Mbit/sec up), and so on. And I get to use iOS 5; the 3G was limited to 4.2.1. Plus, far fewer reasons to jailbreak: multitasking and tethering become official, notifications will work better, and so forth. Not to mention all the apps that either officially or, worse, effectively(!) don't work properly on the 3G. It's just three generations, and yet a huge jump.

[Mugge]

If all the whiners can use this "disappointment" to push AAPL down towards 360-ish I might just buy up a bit. Even whiners can be good for something.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 I ding Apple plenty here and everyone here knows it, and has seen it. I can point you to five threads right now where I'm on their case about something I don't agree with or see as less-than-ideal.

Please.... that's a joke.


To answer your question: everything can be "improved on". That's exactly what they did today.

I gave my (realistic) reasons about why maybe the 3.5" display exists. I backed it up, with how Apple gets into the nitty-gritty and sweats the details more than most companies in this field (is that even up for debate, knowing what you know?) They've had time to change it, but they must feel it's the way to go for this stuff. I'm sure 4"+ works for others. That wasn't my point, ever. It might, however, be Apple's, and what they feel/believe about it? And it's working out pretty well for them.

Apple has been successful for sure. They have sold millions of iPhones. I don't think they ever expected to lose the marketshare lead though, with no end in sight to their portion getting smaller.

So.. is it really working out that well? If anything, Apple is showing that they are not eager to attack Android on multiple fronts... they are happy where they are and continuing the march forward. Which is fine, but, somewhat disappointing from an Apple fan/competitive point of view.

Apple will release a 4" phone next year, and then I will seriously have no idea what your argument is, not that I do right now.

In any case, they're the ones who haven't seen fit to change it after five revisions/four-plus years! I'm simply pointing it out. I'm not the one calling the shots. So don't bark at me about it, go stand on their balls.

all i said was that I was disappointed there was no 4" screen, so why don't you get off my balls, or do you see it as unacceptable to be disappointed with any Apple announcement... because that's what it seems like.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses I'm responding from a user's point of view... not a technical point of view. Pscates is making excuses that Apple knows what is best and has done user surveys and that the 3.5" screen is what it is, not because of technical issues but because of user preference and usability and that Apple knows that the 3.5" screen is the best form factor.

The entirety of my post was about usability. There is no technical roadblock to increasing screen size; just swap in a different panel. There is, however, a huge roadblock to doing so while maintaining several key design considerations made with iOS 1.0. Design. Not tech.

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses You missed the point in your eagerness to have an attempt to show off your technical knowledge.

Well, you sure didn't miss the opportunity in your eagerness to try and be hostile.

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses The iMac stayed at 15" for 5 years, which was ridiculous at the time. There was strong demand for larger sizes. And Apple resisted... because they thought the form factor/weight/style/usability was correct. And tons of people, pscates types... justified it for 5 years and then when Apple finally deemed it necessary to have bigger screen sizes, they blindly agreed.

If you had actually read my post, you might have understood why the iMac comparison doesn't work. Actually, I take that back: I'm pretty sure you do understand; it's just not convenient for your attempt to be contrarian.

[Partial]

The siri stuff doesn't matter much to me. At least right now. I don't foresee myself using it much. Yes, it's cool and scary. I don't think it adds a ton of value. A bigger screen is something I would take advantage of every single time I typed a msg on my phone, so 20ish times a day. Would be great.

Maybe I'm wrong about Siri. I don't know right now. We'll see. I just see this as an F'in cool thing that people won't really use.

[chucker]

There is, of course, a slight hint at things to come, in Lion's new Autolayout. It's possible this will make it to iOS eventually, and at that point, the option of increasing the screen size and screen resolution, maintaining the pixel density as it is, would become available. Even so; lots of unanswered questions. (What do you do with existing apps? Center them? With a border? Linen texture, right?)

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses In some ways it was for many years of the iMac's existence. I guess you just don't remember.

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses Is Apple always right in your mind? Can nothing ever be better or improved unless they do so first and say so? you just wait to be told you need something or that its good for you? the funny thing is there are countless phones out there with 4" and larger screens... and they work fine... and are very popular. But I'm guessing you never used any of them, because Apple doesn't make them. And you probably think they are riddled with usability problems... because Apple doesn't make them.

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses I'm responding from a user's point of view... not a technical point of view. Pscates is making excuses that Apple knows what is best and has done user surveys and that the 3.5" screen is what it is, not because of technical issues but because of user preference and usability and that Apple knows that the 3.5" screen is the best form factor. You missed the point in your eagerness to have an attempt to show off your technical knowledge. The iMac stayed at 15" for 5 years, which was ridiculous at the time. There was strong demand for larger sizes. And Apple resisted... because they thought the form factor/weight/style/usability was correct. And tons of people, pscates types... justified it for 5 years and then when Apple finally deemed it necessary to have bigger screen sizes, they blindly agreed.

Man, can you lose the attitude? You're just being ridiculously condescending to everyone in this thread. It's bizarre and totally unwarranted.

Attack ideas, not people. I knock your ideas and you accuse me of being passive-aggressive, but then you apparently get a pass to throw in all these little accusations and digs at people? I think it's actually you who needs to "get off [everyone's] balls."

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses I'm responding from a user's point of view... not a technical point of view. Pscates is making excuses that Apple knows what is best and has done user surveys and that the 3.5" screen is what it is, not because of technical issues but because of user preference and usability and that Apple knows that the 3.5" screen is the best form factor. You missed the point in your eagerness to have an attempt to show off your technical knowledge. The iMac stayed at 15" for 5 years, which was ridiculous at the time. There was strong demand for larger sizes. And Apple resisted... because they thought the form factor/weight/style/usability was correct. And tons of people, pscates types... justified it for 5 years and then when Apple finally deemed it necessary to have bigger screen sizes, they blindly agreed.

I couldn't wish for, or buy, things that didn't exist. I've got 17" CRT iMac mockups (and 15" LCD ones, well before the iMac G4 came out) I doodled in mid-1999, prior to that fall's release of the iMac DV, when there were rumors of a 17" iMac called "eight ball" going around at AI and iMac2day.com.

I remember those days very well.

It never happened, obviously. I certainly wanted it. In fact, I was saving my money for this mythical three-legged 17" iMac that I was sure was coming at Macworld 2000, based on a bunch of rumors at the time (search the AI archives...they're still posted, those articles).

When the iMac G4 came out, it was only in the 15". I couldn't buy a 17" or 20". They released a 17" a little later, but, not being a never-satisifed spec whore "type", I didn't see the need to sell my other one and do a big switch out.

I owned a laptop during the iMac G5/white iMac phase, and then was happy to get a 20" iMac in 2008 when I was looking to buy a desktop.

And I didn't "blindly agree" as much as "well, this is what to buy at the entry level (that's all I've ever bought at)...it's the most affordable one they have, and they don't even make the others any more". If I could've gotten an aluminum 17" iMac for $899 in 2008, I probably would have. Saved some money, and still been a 2" step up from the laptop I had.

That's how I like to buy...a nice, reasonable step-up from what I've had (which isn't difficult if you typically go 3-4 years between upgrades). But I'm not such a demanding, high-end power user that I go all-out and BTO anything to death and spend $2,100 when I could spend $1,000.

[*Joe*]

Considering how much this announcement was hyped up. I would have expected much more than the small revisions we have seen.

What about:

-Extended battery life? (Lets face it, it's crap)
-Slimmer design?
-Tougher glass (don't tell me you don't know at least 5 iPhone owners with cracked glass)
-Improved antenna? The cell reception is still worse than competitors

The announcements that were made:

-GSM and CDMA - Nobody outside the US will care about this as nowhere else uses CDMA.
-8 MP Camera - just brings it into line with the competition
-Sari - really who cares about voice control?

I think that the iPhone has a winning interface and OS. But Apple needed to do more today. OR They should have accepted this is just a minor revision and not had a big press conference to announce it, getting everyone hyped about an iPhone 5

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses Please.... that's a joke.

The Mac mini going so long with no updates (and the difficulty in user-upgradeabilyt)...I'm talking the older ones, of course.

The Air pricing/offerings?

The display situation?

The lack of a 15" Air-like model? Pretty damn recent, even!

The shuffle capacity?

How the iMac G5 came out in 2004, looking as uninspired and "expected" as the very thing Jobs looked to avoid in the iMac G4, two years earlier ("flat display with guts glommed onto the back")?

The $99 pricing of .Mac/MobileMe, long after it seemed it shouldn't be so?

The inclusion of the short wireless keyboard in the desktops?

The crazy troubles/delays with the white iPhone 4?

Lack of some common sense BTO options on various models over the years (too many to mention)?

The marketing/placement of the 12" PowerBook G4 and how it fit with the others?

Lack of marketing several years back?

Related to the previous, the silliness of the "I'm a Mac..." spots after 5-6 versions?

The pricing of the G4 Cube (despite its beauty)?

The crazy three one-after-the-other iMac updates in 2005-2006, which caused me to give really bad purchasing advice to a friend?

The existence of the 14" iBook?

The "glass on both sides" design of the iPhone 4?

In addition to several instances of general .Mac/MobileMe gripes and concerns, issues with AirPort setup/changing, the Mighty Mouse and its roller ball that lasted about five weeks, the confusing iChat/FaceTime overlap or separation (and trying to explain it to a newcomer to the platform...which to use, and when), how they've been slowly removing accessories over time that used to be included in the packaging, etc.

Oddly enough, I didn't have any gripes about iMovie '08's new UI or the jellybean iMac's hockey puck mouse...both of which were despised intergalactically. So go figure...

No jokes. Genuine, existing threads/posts by me where I've been less than pleased with things Apple has done.

Here's the thing...if you're just going to make wild jabs and snarky digs at me all afternoon, at least get with me so I can give you some legit, useful info on the front end - regarding timeframes, products that were available, my budget at the time, what I was upgrading from/to, etc. - so at least there's some accuracy or grounding in your dings about me.

You've not said one accurate, true thing yet. You just dislike me, and today's a good day to fly that particular flag.

That's fine, have at it.

Just don't lie and make up stuff to fit some pre-set template. Anyone can do that.

I'll give you the info you need to make a well-informed jab. No need to assume things, or put words/thoughts into my head.