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Learning web design, using apps in Virtual PC?


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Learning web design, using apps in Virtual PC?
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anne
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Join Date: Apr 2005
 
2005-04-04, 14:49

Hi there -does anyone know if the virtual pc is good for distance learning - I'm thinking of doing a 2 yr on line IT course - starting from scratch - I'm a complete beginner - and ending with front end web design - but all the tutorials and software is for pc's - they've offered me a laptop at a really good price -but I'd much rather use my mac (of course)- a trusty 10.2.8 OSX - I'd have to buy more ram -and windows XP (am i right?)do you think this is the way to go ? any advice would be received with huge thanks! I was shocked that I couldn't use my mac initially- and then got excited when I found virtual pc might do the trick.
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Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2005-04-04, 15:07

I haven't used VPC so I'll let someone answer it....

But you said you'll be doing front end web design...I'm very sure there's mac programs, and wouldn't it make more sense to use them instead of learning from PC programs and end up buying a PC because you can't use Mac programs? I'll have to ask my wife, but I think she said that Mac programs for this stuff are much better than PC...Seems to me it makes more sense to learn it in Mac.
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Brad
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2005-04-04, 15:23

I'm moving this to General Discussion and renaming the title because I suspect this will become a broader discussion of various applications, how to learn web programming, etc.

Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Flash, and the like are all available for Mac OS X. You should be able to get those same software titles for your Mac through the school or with a substantial educational discount through an outlet like Academic Superstore.

Exactly what do the tutorials for your classes look like? What applications do they require?

WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) editors like Dreamweaver are not really suited for serious web work, IMO. The biggest flaw to learning with these apps is that they don't teach you the importance of the underlying code. A developer is only as good as his/her code, not necessarily the tools he/she uses. WYSIWYG editors also historically produce sloppy, inefficient code. I don't know if they've improved substantially very recently, but I rather doubt it.

I learned to code with a simple text editor. That's all anyone really needs to make a gorgeous web site.

P.S. Glad to see you got your account working, anne.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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anne
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Join Date: Apr 2005
 
2005-04-04, 15:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana
I haven't used VPC so I'll let someone answer it....

But you said you'll be doing front end web design...I'm very sure there's mac programs, and wouldn't it make more sense to use them instead of learning from PC programs and end up buying a PC because you can't use Mac programs? I'll have to ask my wife, but I think she said that Mac programs for this stuff are much better than PC...Seems to me it makes more sense to learn it in Mac.
Thanx for your thoughts - It's not an option to learn it in mac - with this course I get steered towards ( and supported in) relevant courses and exams in the right order - but they're only available for pc's - what appeals is the personal tutorage that comes with it -it's not just using programs - I'm a real beginner and need focus - I'm sure once I'm on my own and producing shiny new websites I'll move towards mac programs........ But maybe I'm being too weedy........................
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ast3r3x
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2005-04-04, 16:00

Virtual PC runs amazingly slow, I really don't think that is the route you'd want to go.

Is this course for some sort for certification or are you just doing it to learn it?
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anne
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Join Date: Apr 2005
 
2005-04-04, 16:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
I'm moving this to General Discussion and renaming the title because I suspect this will become a broader discussion of various applications, how to learn web programming, etc.

Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Flash, and the like are all available for Mac OS X. You should be able to get those same software titles for your Mac through the school or with a substantial educational discount through an outlet like Academic Superstore.

Exactly what do the tutorials for your classes look like? What applications do they require?

WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) editors like Dreamweaver are not really suited for serious web work, IMO. The biggest flaw to learning with these apps is that they don't teach you the importance of the underlying code. A developer is only as good as his/her code, not necessarily the tools he/she uses. WYSIWYG editors also historically produce sloppy, inefficient code. I don't know if they've improved substantially very recently, but I rather doubt it.

I learned to code with a simple text editor. That's all anyone really needs to make a gorgeous web site.

P.S. Glad to see you got your account working, anne.
The tutorials are interactive and I'll be continually assessed - that's how they teach -I'll be learning code and all the basics it's certainly not just about tools - kind of CIW - I want to work from home - I really want to learn and understand the whole process - flash dreamweaver photoshop -front page -were mentioned - but I've a lot to learn before I get to the application stage - I get a 2dy trial - connected to their on line university - I'll see how/if that goes -but I just wanted to know if the virtual pc was an option -I didn't want to have to use a laptop - even if they bought it for me - which they may- I thought maybe they could get me virtually set up instead -Thanx so far - this is my first on line conversation - I feel dizzy......
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anne
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Join Date: Apr 2005
 
2005-04-04, 16:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by ast3r3x
Virtual PC runs amazingly slow, I really don't think that is the route you'd want to go.

Is this course for some sort for certification or are you just doing it to learn it?
I'm not so fussed about certificates - I do just want to learn it - thoroughly -from home -then I can then let my beautiful websites sell their efficient selves - I'm not needing to impress an employer - or make huge sums of money - The slowness sounds off-putting - thank you -I may need to think again ......Hmmmmmm
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rollercoaster375
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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2005-04-04, 18:19

You don't really need to take classes to learn web design. Go out an buy some books. The programs their refering to are prolly editors, which aren't really needed. There are plenty of decent editors.
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FFL
Fishhead Family Reunited
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Slightly Off Center
 
2005-04-04, 18:23

You definitely don't want to take classes in PC-only software on web design.
Especially, you will want to avoid Front Page like the plague.
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ast3r3x
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2005-04-04, 18:55

anne, I recently (within the past year or two) learned real web design...as in more than basic HTML.

I'd recommend staying away from a course, especially one that is two years old for web design.

www.w3schools.com is an excellent source to learn tons of web languages.

What I'd really recommend is to push yourself, take up projects that you aren't positive you can do, google help if you need it, post at forums asking for help, there are plenty out there that will be glad to help. Learning the basics is pretty easy, but implementing them them is there you need creativity.

If you are doing dynamic languages like javascript, it's a lot about problem solving and analytical thinking.

Again, I question weather a two year old course will cover XHTML, which should be a must for any new web dev.
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autodata
hustlin
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2005-04-04, 19:23

I agree with ast3r3x. You'll actually probably have a harder time jumping through all of the hoops of the course and using a pc than learning on your own.

O'Reilly books are very good. See here for the list of web development books. What I've done is check out the amazon reviews for a book to see what people are saying about it (is the book good for beginners, only for experts?), then get it through Interlibrary Loan, which is a service that your public or university will provide for free or a low fee. Then, if it's a good book, I buy it.

Books + internet are better because you can go at your own pace. You'll save a lot of money and probably learn more.
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anne
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Join Date: Apr 2005
 
2005-04-05, 04:24

I really can't thank you guys enough- all your advice I shall take -I now won't touch that course with a barge pole and I'll spend the money on mac programs and books -and a nikon d 70 camera -and an i pod -and a .............
it's absolutely brilliant that I found your website -
phew!
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ast3r3x
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2005-04-05, 05:12

Again, just don't be afraid to ask questions. One of the things I am skeptical about courses like that is not that they teach you how to do use different languages, but that they don't teach you how to implement things and tie it all together.

Again I want to stress...ask questions, or google your problem, there are tons of websites that have something about almost anything.
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anne
New Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
 
2005-04-05, 08:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by ast3r3x
anne, I recently (within the past year or two) learned real web design...as in more than basic HTML.

I'd recommend staying away from a course, especially one that is two years old for web design.

www.w3schools.com is an excellent source to learn tons of web languages.

What I'd really recommend is to push yourself, take up projects that you aren't positive you can do, google help if you need it, post at forums asking for help, there are plenty out there that will be glad to help. Learning the basics is pretty easy, but implementing them them is there you need creativity.

If you are doing dynamic languages like javascript, it's a lot about problem solving and analytical thinking.

Again, I question weather a two year old course will cover XHTML, which should be a must for any new web dev.
How fantastic is w3schools ! I can't believe such a clear and informative website exists - you've saved me a lot of money ! I feel wholly motivated -Big Thanks
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Brad
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2005-04-05, 09:23

Yeah, W3School rocks. I still use it from time to time whenever I need a refresher about something I haven't used in a long time.

As you're making your pages, I highly recommend validating the code as you go. That'll help you from making mistakes early on that could balloon into huge problems that you'd have to fix later. Once you understand the very basics of XHTML, I also strongly suggest learning CSS.

The W3Schools pages don't cover everything, of course. So, when you're comfortable with what they have to offer in XHTML and CSS, you can look to W3C for complete (albeit sometimes technical) descriptions of the languages. W3C is the organization that sets the standards.

Here are some additional pages you may find useful:

Getting Started with HTML
CSS Layout Techniques: for Fun and Profit
CSS/edge
css Zen Garden
Designing with Web Standards
The Advanced HTML/CSS Resources

Important Note:
Some tutorials say things like:
Quote:
Each paragraph you write should start with a <p> tag. The </p> is optional, unlike the end tags for elements like headings.
This is only acceptable in the old versions of HTML. In the current XHTML language, all opening tags must have a matching closing tag.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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rollercoaster375
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2005-04-05, 09:55

That's still correct. The <p> tag though in xhtml must be <p /> though if you don't wish to end it.

w3schools is great, and responding to a comment before, Javascript isn't dynamic, it's interactive. Php/ASP.net/JSP is dynamic.
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ast3r3x
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2005-04-05, 10:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by rollercoaster375
That's still correct. The <p> tag though in xhtml must be <p /> though if you don't wish to end it.
Didn't know that...but it makes sense, thanks

I never use nested paragraphs though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rollercoaster375
w3schools is great, and responding to a comment before, Javascript isn't dynamic, it's interactive. Php/ASP.net/JSP is dynamic.
Why isn't javascript dynamic? I've never done it because I learned php first, but can't javascript connect to databases? Wouldn't that be a prime example of creating dynamic pages with js? Maybe I am wrong, I never checked out that chapter in my javascript book, but I'm fairly sure it exists, perhaps it is just javascript interacting with php or something like that.
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nomorewindows
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Rockie Mountains
 
2005-04-05, 17:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) editors like Dreamweaver are not really suited for serious web work, IMO. The biggest flaw to learning with these apps is that they don't teach you the importance of the underlying code. A developer is only as good as his/her code, not necessarily the tools he/she uses. WYSIWYG editors also historically produce sloppy, inefficient code. I don't know if they've improved substantially very recently, but I rather doubt it.

I learned to code with a simple text editor. That's all anyone really needs to make a gorgeous web site.
I can't BELIEVE I came across this thread! I've volunteered to create a web site for an association of which I am a board member. I have a lot of experience in desktop publishing and none in web publishing. I agree with your assessment of Dreamweaver. I don't really want to spend money on something that doesn't teach me anything. Was also thinking of going the VPC route but would rather not.

Thanks for listing the applicable pages. I'll check them out. Looks like you've helped at least two people, Brad.

Will the text editor already installed on my PB do the trick? Once again, applenova (and Brad) saves the day (and enough money to buy more icrack)!

(Note the bold text. Wahoo! You can teach an old dog new tricks!)

"A synonym is a word you use when you can't spell the other." Baltasar Gracian
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Brad
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2005-04-05, 17:20

Yeah. TextEdit does really well.

I also really like SubEthaEdit because it has nice tag coloring.

All the coding I've done for AppleNova and a few other sites has been done entirely in SubEthaEdit and TextEdit.

Oh. And...


The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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ast3r3x
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2005-04-05, 17:21

You could use TextEdit, but I think you'll find most members recommending BBEdit (not free) or SubEthaEdit (free)
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anne
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Join Date: Apr 2005
 
2005-04-06, 07:17

More help from such a kindly forum - validate I shall !
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rollercoaster375
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2005-04-06, 09:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by ast3r3x
Didn't know that...but it makes sense, thanks

I never use nested paragraphs though.



Why isn't javascript dynamic? I've never done it because I learned php first, but can't javascript connect to databases? Wouldn't that be a prime example of creating dynamic pages with js? Maybe I am wrong, I never checked out that chapter in my javascript book, but I'm fairly sure it exists, perhaps it is just javascript interacting with php or something like that.
Javascript cannot connect to the database. It's purpose is to give a web designer more control over the page that he/she is creating. You can create javascript with php, so no, Javascript is not dynamic (tis client side, not server side) (I'm also a PHP programmer, I know very little Javascript, but I do know it's capabilities)
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ast3r3x
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2005-04-06, 10:21

Yeah, it seems that chapter they are using javascript/asp/personal web server stuff.

Anyways...I've always thought it best to stick to PHP and use javascript only when needed
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