[psmith2.0]

Well we can only hope, can't we?

I wonder what would happen if a human took a rhino tranquilizer? He'd be out for hours. Maybe days?

Oops, I can't say that...

The rhino WAS NOT a liberal...I want to make that perfectly clear!!!



Jeez...

How can I both love and hate this place, in equal amounts, at the same time?

[709]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 I wonder what would happen if a human took a rhino tranquilizer? He'd be out for hours. Maybe days?

I've snorted horse tranquilizer and it was the worst fucking experience ever. I thank the gods to this day I didn't accidentally shit myself.

I was more referring to the black-ops projects starting in the 50s and continuing on to who knows when. LSD, heroin, sodium penethol (sp?), etc., etc., ...all being used on unsupecting US citizens.

[torifile]

The rhino WAS NOT a liberal...I want to make that perfectly clear!!!

Definitely not! Wrinkly, gray things are most often conservative!

[psmith2.0]

709, did you take that horse thing on purpose or was it an accident?

Did it knock you completely out, or where you awake and aware, and just completely zonked?

[FFL]

Originally Posted by Windswept So, what people are missing here is that when the taser guy started resisting the police officers, he right then was committing an actual crime.

Only if he was being placed under arrest, according to what you quoted.

So if they were only trying to remove him, and never said "you're under arrest!", then none of that applies, right?

[709]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 709, did you take that horse thing on purpose or was it an accident? Did it knock you completely out, or where you awake and aware, and just completely zonked?

Sadly enough, on purpose. I was curious.

You remember that Bugs Bunny cartoon where he's in that castle with the big hairy monster he tries to give a hairstyle to (with rollers and everything)? Remember when the bottle of ether gets broken and they end up running after each other in complete slo-mo (Commme baaaackk heeeeere raaaabiiitt)? That was me. It sucked.

[psmith2.0]

I know that cartoon exactly...

"Nighty-nighhhttttttt..."



Haven't thought of it in years.

Wow, the things we'll do when we're curious.

I rent something with subtitles from Blockbuster; you take a horse tranquilizer.

[709]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 I know that cartoon exactly... "Nighty-nighhhttttttt..."

I knew you, of all people, would get that analogy.

[FFL]

"The whole situation appears to be an unfortunate combination of police overreaction, and student douchbaggery."
- Jon Stewart

As usual, he nails it.

[709]

It's telling, in these end days, that we get our most succinct and right on social commentary from a comic, isn't it?


[OT]

These new fancy boxes of wine with their fancy graphics have totally sucked me in. I mean, they look like they might be fine red nectar, but the taste is manageable at best. Can they really be 3L? Really? That's like 4 fucking bottles of wine that I've drank tonight. In such a small box? That can't be right. I remember a time in my youth I floated arms stretched out down a river clenching a silver foil bag of some foul wine with a spout like some sci-fi goat's bladder. I'm sure I'd be arrested if I tried to do that now. Maybe I'll dye my hair back to it's original color and give it a try. I'll probably be shot or tasered by days end, no doubt.

[/OT]

[Koodari]

Originally Posted by Windswept So, what people are missing here is that when the taser guy started resisting the police officers, he right then was committing an actual crime. He is no longer an innocent college student, but has committed a class 6 felony. I think that fact changes things a bit. Yes?

No, it doesn't change a thing. The police still do not get to judge or mete out punishment. What matters was the actual threat displayed by the guy - pretty small - and which of the available means would be the least invasive while stopping the disturbance reasonably quickly.

Either the tasering wasn't necessary, or it was necessary because these cops were too incompetent to handle the situation otherwise. I'm pretty freaking certain that two average bouncers from my hometown would have had the guy outside the room under fifteen seconds even without cuffing him, certainly without tasering him.

[alcimedes]

Cops need some training. Now.

The crazy lady in the wheelchair.

http://www.local6.com/news/14147512/detail.html

I suppose shocking her to death was what she had coming.

Thing is, at least she was doing something aggressive. Still a pile of better ways to handle this, but for those saying that tasers can't be lethal, you're just flat out wrong.

[murbot]

That was a bit over the top, yeah. She could have easily been subdued by having an officer throwing rocks at her. Just keep circling and throwing, what's the bitch going to do, rotate that chair while holding the hammer and knives? A couple of good sized rocks in the melon and she's back in the loony bin safe and sound, and the tax payers aren't on the hook for a huge settlement.

Christ, they could have a slingshot in the car for people like this.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by murbot That was a bit over the top, yeah. She could have easily been subdued by having an officer throwing rocks at her. Just keep circling and throwing, what's the bitch going to do, rotate that chair while holding the hammer and knives? A couple of good sized rocks in the melon and she's back in the loony bin safe and sound, and the tax payers aren't on the hook for a huge settlement. Christ, they could have a slingshot in the car for people like this.

Funny as that is, a well placed rock can be just as lethal as a taser. Perhaps more so. And it can cause damage that is much more permanent. Again, beating sticks are more effective, anyway!

A good, old-fashioned hog-tieing is my favorite.

I think I'll be done now. We are starting to shout out the same points over and over, with no progress, and I just can't come up with anything else.

I'll reiterate my stance, and then bail:

I'm not a fan of Police smackings, but this guy was a turd who needed a good smacking. He wasn't hurt badly, and it is clear that he is an attention whore that was doing this all for his own self-advertising. I don't feel bad for him a bit. I am a huge fan of cooperation in this type of situation. Had he cooperated, rather than thumping his chest, he would have escaped unscathed and un-arrested! He makes me want to puke.

Yes, the Police should be a bit more restrained (and, yes, some are getting out of control), but we citizens need to set a good example.

Final thought: "If you teach people that they are just animals, don't be shocked when they act like one!"

edit: I don't recall where I read that, but I'm making it my new signature!

edit 2: I love the word zap, by the way. Has such a 1960's, comic book feel to it. Awesome!

edit 3: Did I just say, "don't be shocked"?

[Moogs]

Read through a few anti-taser responses... I only have one question:

What do you do when you've got a large, determined individual who refuses to just give it up, turn around, and walk out with a police escort? What do you do when he starts jumping around and flailing like this idiot, potentially hurting himself or bystanders... or worse, when you have some asshole strung out on narcotics, or desperate because he knows he's been caught committing a crime, and will do anything to escape? I don't think some people actually imagine themselves in the police officers' shoes before making up their mind.

You're a police officer and have maybe one or two buddies with you, maybe no buddies with you. Unless you've tried it, physically subduing a person like that is a lot harder than it sounds, and both the individual and the police stand to get hurt if you force it to be a mano-a-mano situation. SO... people don't like batons because we've all seen where that goes. People don't like the threat of pulling a gun and ordering someone down... now people don't like tasters. WTF are they supposed to do, short of calling Chuck Norris?

WTF do you suggest? Just let the person have their way, and then at the end of the demonstration or event, you're faced with the same exact problem of how to subdue them? Fuck that.

THIS IS HOW IT WORKS (whether or not Mommy ever taught you, Mr. Protester): if you are a protester or a criminal or a whatever, and you start doing your thing, and the police come for you, THE GAME IS OVER. You have two choices. Turn around and go with the police (shout all you want, they won't stop you from doing that, as long as you walk out with them) or force the police to force you to the ground so they can cuff you. Because in this day and age the police have zero idea who is armed with homemade weapons, guns or anything else. They have to assume the worst is possible, otherwise, if crazy protester guy pulls a gun or a taser of his own or whatever, and starts attacking people in a crowd, then police are called "incompetent because they didn't take enough precaution".

The attitudes in threads like this put good cops in BS, no-win propositions. Quite frankly, a taser is preferable to a beating with wooden sticks, and is also preferable to the police being forced to pull their guns with innocent people standing all around. And it's also preferable to forcing the police to physically man-handle a guy like that and risk getting kicked in the jaw or whatever. If I'm a cop, I want a taser or forget it. If I can't have some way of keeping a minimal distance and subduing a completely uncooperative subject, why would I even want to try?

So, until the Discovery Channel's super-non-lethal-liberal-placating-subduer-device-that-everyone-loves comes out and is affordable to police departments.... tough shit, Mr. anarchist protester guy who refuses to call it a day, putting himself and the cops at risk. Hope you enjoy your electrical burns in the county lock-up.

PS - don't call the cops "bro" unless you want an extra jolt, Mr. Hang Ten party animal. The correct term is "officer", or if you're really drunk, "occifer" is acceptable.

[alcimedes]

Ha, I'm about as far from a liberal hippy type as their is, but I expect cops to be able to handle themselves and dangerous situations better than they did in this case.

This wasn't a big guy. He wasn't flailing. He was away from everyone else out in the hallway. He was laying on the ground and had a hand behind his back.

*That* is the point when the cops decided to zap him. I'd have an easier time buying into the "Cops need to protect themselves and this is one way to do it" argument if it weren't so patently obvious that that isn't what happened here.

There was no risk, no threat. The entire situation was 95% done and they were completely in control. Then they zap him.

[Banana]

I'm kind of reminded of that scene from a trainwreck of movie, Demolition Man.

In future, crimes has been practically eliminated but somehow they released a dangerous criminal who was cryogenically frozen and was supposed to be re-programmed but was unsuccessful.

So he goes around like bad news, causing havoc. The police confronts him, but being totally inexperienced in conflict resolution, they take instructions from a computer. They told him to lie down the ground peacefully, which only gets a sheer and he does something nasty (my memory is fuzzy), and defeats the police.

So they released Sly prematurely to capture the dangerous criminal. Unfortunately, Sly basically wrecks the pristine city in his manhunt.

[BuonRotto]

Future police weapon: ball gag. Imagine that dangling from their utility belts.

[Windswept]

Last night, I was watching some clips on tv of police dealing with possible drunk drivers.

With this one older guy, the officer said, "Now focus on my finger with both eyes, and follow it as I move it from side to side. Sir, please focus on my finger."

"But, officer, I am unable to focus with both eyes."

"Why, sir? Do you have a glass eye?"

"Yes, officer, I do."

"Well, try to focus with your good eye then."

"Well, officer, the problem is that I have *two* glass eyes." The officer was momentarily taken aback at the thought of this man driving with two glass eyes.

After saying that, the old guy chuckled and gently clapped the officer on the shoulder, to show that his 'two glass eyes' comment was just a friendly little joke. Fortunately, the officer was good-humored about it.

[zippy]

Originally Posted by alcimedes Ha, I'm about as far from a liberal hippy type as their is, but I expect cops to be able to handle themselves and dangerous situations better than they did in this case. This wasn't a big guy. He wasn't flailing. He was away from everyone else out in the hallway. He was laying on the ground and had a hand behind his back. *That* is the point when the cops decided to zap him. I'd have an easier time buying into the "Cops need to protect themselves and this is one way to do it" argument if it weren't so patently obvious that that isn't what happened here. There was no risk, no threat. The entire situation was 95% done and they were completely in control. Then they zap him.

I don't agree with any of this.

He was a fairly sizeable guy - I'd say somewhere in the 6'2" range, about 230 lbs. Watch the video again, he is taller than almost every cop there.

He was jumping around and flailing and pulling his arms away from the cops.

When they tased him, he was still in the auditorium, near the back, but still in the gathering area of the other people. He was also yelling for help, and trying to rile up the bystanders by saying "are you watching this?" - it's not a leap to worry that this jerk is trying to build a frenzy with the bystanders and turn this into a big melee.

He was lying on the ground when they tased him, but he was still struggling, cuffed or not. The situation is not in control until the individual is cooperating,which he still obviously wasn't, or is forceably removed from the sight. It's not easy to force someone to get up and walk unless you give them some reason to. The taser was not used as a punishment like someone mentioned, it was used as an incentive and it looks like it worked perfectly.

The video that Windswept linked was obviously edited. There was a lot of footage missing. How long did this really go on? I'm sure there are guidelines in place that indicate the use of a taser if the subject can't be controlled and removed within a period of time - My guess is this went on for 5-10 minutes. That's a long time to be 'in the heat of the moment'. That's way more patience from the officers than should be necessary in our new backbone-less society.

Remember that news organizations are after sensational journalism here, so I wouldn't be surprised if they took out all the parts where this twit was being really obnoxious and resisting.

I'm about as liberal as the come on most things, but I agree with Moogs that we keep taking away every tool or option for our police force to protect us - and then whine when they let us down.

So here's an experiment from all you naysayers - seriously try this:
This weekend, get 5 or six of your buddies and take turns trying to subdue a member of the group and remove them from a building in an expeditious manner without weapons, and without people getting hurt. Good luck.

[Taskiss]

An observation:

People who look for something hard enough find what they're looking for.

A question:

How can they not deserve what they find?

[psmith2.0]

Don't bother. It's still going to be the cops' fault, no matter what. And if you stand with them (or against this guy), you're just going to be lumped into some horrible, unappealing category, and/or have snide things said about you. Does no good whatsoever trying to argue this from any real-world, common sense type of positions. You must operate from a higher plane that, frankly, most of us just aren't equipped to do.



Somebody just needs to invent that perfect stopping weapon that everyone can agree on. Probably a huge payday for the person/company that does.

Something that subdues the largest, most violent person imaginable, but is as hands-off as possible, and has no risk of serious, permanent injury whatsoever.

Might be a tall order, but, then again, I'm not aware of what kinds of materials and technologies are in the labs across this country. I'm sure someone, somewhere, is working feverishly on the ideal "perp stopper" product.

You automatically have to rule out anything involving striking or blows. Probably any sort of brain scrambler or motor-function disturbance, etc. falls under the "big no-no" category as well. Name-calling, it should go without saying, is definitely out.

No drugs, no wires, nothing metal or sharp (accidental stabbing), nothing too chemical (peanut allergies and so forth). Tasers are definitely out...they kill everyone, it seems. No knock-out gas (because it might drift into the crowd and affect others). Some sort of foam or net solution, maybe? Or, I suppose, you could just stand back and let the person tire themselves out (like they do on safaris and "Wild Kingdom"?). Someone running on adrenaline will eventually drain and they'd probably be pretty easy for 5-6 cops to talk out of the building (or carry out on a padded stretcher, made from biodegradable materials).

No whips, no chains (good Lord), nothing resembling a gun (sends the wrong message and might escalate things). Some bubbles, perhaps? Scented bubbles, infused with a sleep/drowsing agent?

That's my favorite so far. It's fun for the cops, nearby kids can get a bubble show and there's nothing more tame than a soft bubble softly popping in front of you, releasing the sleep agent. Then the guy is carried out and wakes up in 20 or so minutes in a cell, all ready for his first meeting with his court-appointed attorney who is going to suggest suing everyone involved, as standard course. But nobody is hurt, and that's the important thing.

Bubbles!

Holy smokes, I think I've just solved everyone's problem...





Is there any opposition to the following:

+



Is the basic principle morally objectionable to anyone (I already know the answer to this, of course, but I have to ask out of fairness and being thorough)...

[Taskiss]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Don't bother. It's still going to be the cops' fault, no matter what. And if you stand with them (or against this guy), you're just going to be lumped into some category, or have things said about you.

Well, personally, I feel the cops over-reacted. That's irrelevant to the fact that the kid went looking to create a disturbance and garner attention. He got what he was looking for. In that, he deserves what he got.

One should be careful what they wish for.

Were he to come here he would be someone like the infamous macgeek. That kind of behavior gets different responses from different kinds of people, and there are people that will use a taser on people that behave like that.

You don't tug on Superman's cape. You don't spit into the wind. You don't pull the mask off the ol' Lone Ranger...

...etc.

[psmith2.0]

Yes, Croce was a visionary.

The cops probably did overreact, the more I think about it. It's a good thing nobody was seriously hurt or killed to death; we'd never hear the end of it.

But, in all seriousness, I bet this episode has spurred a few people into trying to design some new, better approaches to a problem like this. The Taser thing really gets people stirred-up...I had no idea.

Probably hard to come up with something that just affects a single person and not everyone else in the immediate area. You know, the forbidding "wall of law enforcement" might be the trick in all but the most severe situations. Just intimidate them with a strong visual, as if to say "you're outnumbered and you can't get beyond this", knowing that if the perp chooses to make it physical (laying hands on an officer), then the dreaded spray and zapping may be employed.

First tactic: visually unsettle the perp, make him think twice about what he's doing. Police departments should hire bigger, uglier recruits to help with this technique. A cop who looks like one of those Bravo! network chefs probably won't do (spiky, frosted-tip hair has never intimidated anyone, and it's the reason Ryan Seacrest is in broadcasting and not law enforcement). But if he looks like that motorcycle guy with the walrus mustache, then we're getting somewhere.

[zippy]

Sorry Paul, that won't work - you'd be doping people after all, and that's gonna be a big no-no.

How about this. When someone breaks the law, we pay them to stop. If these cops had offered this guy $10,000 to leave the room, I'm sure he would have complied, and nobody would be upset.

That seems like the only option - until criminals start responding to stern looks, head shaking and finger waving.

I can't believe we even allow handcuffs nowadays. Those things can hurt!

[FFL]

Ah, I see we are still rehashing the same redneck vigilante nonsense -
"he got what he wanted"
"he had it coming"
"he deserved it"
"he needed a good smacking"
"that'll teach him"

Perhaps some of you need to watch the video again? Regardless of how much he struggled or resisted (or was "disruptive") before they got him on the ground... he was horizontal on the ground, with one hand jammed behind his back, and four cops on top of him, at the moment when they actually tased him.

That's just plain wrong - as are the many attempts to justify it.

It doesn't matter if he was being disruptive, or if he was a serial attention-whore, or if he was a Democrat or Republican, or if the speaker was a Democrat or a Republican. The guy was under control and not in a position to be a threat to anyone at the moment he was tased.

No matter how "good" it makes some of you feel to see it - asshattery does not earn one a tasing from police - else they'd never have time to do anything except to taser a few dozen asshats per day.

I'm a law-and-order guy, but the day that the "job" of the police becomes to PUNISH people that are "annoying and disruptive" - well, that's the day that I join the chorus yelling "fuck the police".

[psmith2.0]

They carry those zip-tie things a lot, I've seen on TV. They could've rushed him to the ground, got one or two around his ankles and around his wrist and just carried him out. That would've worked too. They could've processed him outside, or at the station.

[zippy]

But the point I'm trying to make is that he was still resisting, and therefore was not under control. How long should they have to sit on him and wait for him to comply.

Again, get a handful of friends and try to get one of them up off the ground while his is struggling, and take him out and put him into a car - even handcuffed. If he legitimately tries to oppose your will, you will have a ton of trouble accomplishing this 'simple' task.

The taser was used effectively as a tool to force compliance when all the polite methods had failed. There was no way to get this individual to cooperate without resorting to more force. Trying to remove an non-compliant individual is MUCH harder than many of you seem to realize or admit.

[FFL]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 They carry those zip-tie things a lot, I've seen on TV. They could've rushed him to the ground, got one or two around his ankles and around his wrist and just carried him out. That would've worked too. They could've processed him outside, or at the station.

ding-ding-ding - we have a winnah

[FFL]

The other point I'd like to make is - we all seem to agree that the guy WANTED to get tased.

Because the police tased him - he ended up getting exactly what he wanted. Millions of you-tube hits, and thousands of headlines worldwide.

Is that going to discourage, or encourage, someone in the future with similar goals?

Yes, the cops did in fact "give him what he wanted" - they played right into his hands.