[Hobbes]

No one knows anything.

My wild guess: a data plan will not be required, data plans will start at $25 ($25 limited, $45 unlimited) and that AT&T will offer a "special" package for iPhone users (e.g. 1000 minutes plus unlimited data for $99/mo).

[apple007]

Originally Posted by Banana Apple007-Just because two bigwigs said something a bit differently doesn't mean they've contradicted each other. It's very possible that one was talking about that and other was about this, and after the fact, it'll make sense. (But in a odd way. ) One said it will be a special rate for iPhone, while another said it won't be exotic. This can be easily reconciled if we say that exotic doesn't necessarily mean special but rather more like 'weird'. Pesto, no contradiction.

AT&T Head of Division #1: "We'll have special pricing for iPhone but we're NOT announcing the prices until June 29."

... followed by, hours later on the same day:

AT&T Head of Division #2: "We'll definitely be announcing the iPhone prices in advance, and the prices won't be anything exotic."

It's not the end of the world, but those two statements were massively contradictory, and either imply these people are flying by the seat of their pants to some extent or AT&T has at least one idiot in charge of a division.

[psmith2.0]

They need to have some sort of "sign for two years, get $150 off" deal. That's just good manners.

I'd buy the damn thing then. But since no one is saying anything, I can't even make plans a week in advance.

If I knew I could boogie on down to Atlanta and pick up a 4GB iPhone for $349 or $399 next Friday or Saturday, I'd do it without even thinking (and I'd meet drew to hoist some premium adult beverages)! I'd sign a five-year contract with Cingular/AT&T, I don't care (my service and satisfaction with them is just peachy...got no reason to go anywhere else).

Seeing that cool "guided tour" video today just got me all worked up now, and wanting one...first-gen, schmirst-gen. Daddy wants his iPhone. I'll be a guinea pig/early adopter, I don't give a rip.

[apple007]

Going slightly off-topic for a second, won't an iTunes update be needed before anyone can fire up their iPhone?

[psmith2.0]

One would think. That's the "hub" thingie for it, right? I'm sure there will be one next Friday, if not a few days before.

[torifile]

Originally Posted by apple007 Well, then how do you explain two different AT&T heads-of-division saying completely contradictory things on the same day about something as important as the announce date for iPhone's data plan?

You mean the unconfirmed reports from unnamed sources we've been reading on rumor sites?

[bender0069]

I don't ever remember seeing this data plan on AT&T/Cingular before and I've looked frequently since being a Cingular customer (4 yrs)
http://http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/cell-phone-plan-details/?q_sku=sku70005&q_planCategory=cat1460003
Maybe a clue to the iPhone data plan

[torifile]

Originally Posted by bender0069 I don't ever remember seeing this data plan on AT&T/Cingular before and I've looked frequently since being a Cingular customer (4 yrs) http://http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/cell-phone-plan-details/?q_sku=sku70005&q_planCategory=cat1460003 Maybe a clue to the iPhone data plan

It's gone now. Do you have a screenshot? Check your cache. If it is a clue, it's valuable info!

edit: I see it now. $99.99 for unlimited with wifi (like wifi costs them anything... bastards. Unless it allows use of AT&T hotspots like at Barnes & Noble). But I can't see many people paying $100/month for data. Not on an EDGE network.

[psmith2.0]

You know what's going to suck? They've got this great device that is probably, in some ways, going to "change everything" (in true Apple style).

But between the no-discount pricing (you pay the full $499 or $599 price, regardless of any contracts you sign) and this "forced-on you, needlessly expensive" data plan jive, it comes across like Apple and AT&T are out to pretty much put as much stink on this thing before it's even out of the gate for good.

$99 for a data plan? Kiss that. Why can't I just not get a "data plan" because I'm not a business person who needs constant, immediate access to stock updates or co-worker e-mails and documents, and let me just get the damn phone and the few times I'm in Panera or a local cafe that has wireless, I can hop on and surf a bit or check my mail.

But having to pay (and pay a lot) for something that isn't needed by everyone just bugs me. How about *gasp* the people who truly need that "anywhere/anytime" network/online connection pay a bit extra for it, and leave the rest of us alone. Hell, I'm giving you $499...can you let me keep some of my money?



Do they not realize they're going to sell eleventy kazillion of these things in the first few months...why go out of your way to cornhole everyone, or zap them for every last nickel?

Do one or the others: offer standard discounts/rebates on the damn thing, or make some of these other things optional. Doing neither of those is a double kick in the nuts, IMO. You're talking $600, at least, to get into - and use - an iPhone (and probably more, once you include all the bullcrap taxes, fees, etc.).

Everytime I get excited about this thing (the phone itself), I hear more tidbits and info about the other side of it (pricing, rates, data plans, etc.) and I just get all about it.

[bender0069]

[quote=edit: I see it now. $99.99 for unlimited with wifi (like wifi costs them anything... bastards. Unless it allows use of AT&T hotspots like at Barnes & Noble). But I can't see many people paying $100/month for data. Not on an EDGE network.[/QUOTE]

I agree completely. I'd add $20 or $30 dollars to my already outrageously high cell phone bill, but not $75 to $100. The whole Wi-Fi thing is what caught my eye since that is one of the big hyped up things about the iPhone. If this is what they are going to charge for a data plan, it's kind of like they are saying, "since you won't be using our network most of the time we are going to charge you out the a$$ for the few time that you may want to."

PS-I did try the screenshot thing first before I posted and couldn't get it to work. Still trying to figure some of these things out. I guess I need to to take a shot, save it to another website then link it here? I hate being new to Mac and not knowing some of these simple things.

[torifile]

I did try the screenshot thing first before I posted and couldn't get it to work. Still trying to figure some of these things out. I guess I need to to take a shot, save it to another website then link it here? I hate being new to Mac and not knowing some of these simple things.

Yeah. You need a host for the image and then link it from this page. BTW, this would be the case if you've got a Mac or PC.

[apple007]

Originally Posted by torifile You mean the unconfirmed reports from unnamed sources we've been reading on rumor sites?

No, I was talking about direct quotes from two different public appearances/interviews given by the people at AT&T I referenced.

[apple007]

Originally Posted by bender0069 I don't ever remember seeing this data plan on AT&T/Cingular before and I've looked frequently since being a Cingular customer (4 yrs) http://http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/cell-phone-plan-details/?q_sku=sku70005&q_planCategory=cat1460003 Maybe a clue to the iPhone data plan

If this is the allegedly "non-exotic" iPhone pricing, then I say, "Goodbye, iPhone. I hardly knew ye."

No one has been more excited about iPhone than me -- hell, I've been going month-to-month with Verizon since '05 -- but there's absolutely no way in hell I'm paying $100/mo. just for data when their existing unlimited data plans were $40. I'd be looking at a $250/mo. cell phone bill by the time I added in actual voice minutes and taxes.

[turtle]

Originally Posted by apple007 If this is the allegedly "non-exotic" iPhone pricing, then I say, "Goodbye, iPhone. I hardly knew ye." No one has been more excited about iPhone than me -- hell, I've been going month-to-month with Verizon since '05 -- but there's absolutely no way in hell I'm paying $100/mo. just for data when their existing unlimited data plans were $40. I'd be looking at a $250/mo. cell phone bill by the time I added in actual voice minutes and taxes.

That plan has been there. It's to give you unlimited access to APs at airports and such on top of your EDGE data traffic. I can't see them forcing that on any iPhone. Many use free hotspots just fine.

[torifile]

Originally Posted by apple007 No, I was talking about direct quotes from two different public appearances/interviews given by the people at AT&T I referenced.

I haven't seen a single quote from anyone about this issue. Do you have a link where it's not just an unnamed source?

[apple007]

Originally Posted by turtle2472 That plan has been there. It's to give you unlimited access to APs at airports and such on top of your EDGE data traffic. I can't see them forcing that on any iPhone. Many use free hotspots just fine.

Well, that's good; I was reacting as if that was a newly-listed plan.

However, the same general principle applies: If that $99 plan is AT&T's idea of an unlimited plan for a smart phone, I'm probably going to pass for a while. It's one thing to pay $600 for an unsubsidized phone, but to then get charged extra to actually use the $600 phone's built-in features? No thanks.

[turtle]

Originally Posted by apple007 Well, that's good; I was reacting as if that was a newly-listed plan. However, the same general principle applies: If that $99 plan is AT&T's idea of an unlimited plan for a smart phone, I'm probably going to pass for a while. It's one thing to pay $600 for an unsubsidized phone, but to then get charged extra to actually use the $600 phone's built-in features? No thanks.

Well to make sure you aren't shocked, plan to pay an extra $20-$60 per month for data. I think $60 is Verizon's rate right now and the other two unlimited plans from AT&T are $20 and $40.

[apple007]

Originally Posted by torifile I haven't seen a single quote from anyone about this issue. Do you have a link where it's not just an unnamed source?

Check the news reports from last Monday or Tuesday. Some AT&T guy did an appearance somewhere in the morning and claimed AT&T had "special prices" planned for iPhone but wouldn't be announcing them until June 29. Then later that same day, Mark Siegel from AT&T announced the prices would "definitely" be announced in advance and the pricing "wouldn't be exotic."

EDIT: "Some AT&T guy" = Larry Carter, AT&T's Senior VP for Sales

[apple007]

Originally Posted by turtle2472 Well to make sure you aren't shocked, plan to pay an extra $20-$60 per month for data. I think $60 is Verizon's rate right now and the other two unlimited plans from AT&T are $20 and $40.

I wasn't expecting to use data for free; I was simply saying that paying double AT&T's existing rates just because I'm using an iPhone -- an unsubsidized iPhone, at that -- plus another $20 for WiFi access would be ridiculous.

[torifile]

Originally Posted by apple007 Check the news reports from last Monday or Tuesday. Some AT&T guy did an appearance somewhere in the morning and claimed AT&T had "special prices" planned for iPhone but wouldn't be announcing them until June 29. Then later that same day, Mark Siegel from AT&T announced the prices would "definitely" be announced in advance and the pricing "wouldn't be exotic." EDIT: "Some AT&T guy" = Larry Carter, AT&T's Senior VP for Sales

Thanks, that's helpful. But do you have an aversion to providing actual links to these sources? I mean, if you've got them handy and all....

edit: is this the article? The only mention I could find about plans was the somewhat ambiguous statement:

There are other surprises in the works for June 29. In addition to launching the iPhone that day, Carter says AT&T also will announce new service plans for it.

It could be read that the plans will be announced on the 29th but I believe it's just a poorly constructed sentence.

[spotcatbug]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 But between the no-discount pricing (you pay the full $499 or $599 price, regardless of any contracts you sign) and this "forced-on you, needlessly expensive"

Those prices ($499 and $599) are discounted. If you could buy one without a 2-year contract, you can bet that it would cost a lot more.

I really think this is why we have no info about the plan(s) yet. They haven't figured it out. Or, more likely, they haven't finalized it.

It's very complicated for them. They need to figure out what they actually need to charge for the phone - the amount they need to get from the customer, including contract kick-back or whatever you want to call that, subtract the upfront, retail price ($499 or $599) then amortize the result over the contract length(s) and figure out what services to provide each month based on that monthly cost to the customer.

All that, while also considering that the monthly fee must seem "worth the price", relative to other phones and services you can get. And keep in mind that AT&T/Cingular aren't just going to stop selling everything else they have. They aren't going to exclusively sell iPhones, so they need for this sweet spot of pricing to work with all their other phones and services as well.

The one concrete, already-announced bit of data, the retail prices ($499 and $599), may have come to early and now their having a tough time working out the rest of the numbers.

[apple007]

Originally Posted by spotcatbug Those prices ($499 and $599) are discounted. If you could buy one without a 2-year contract, you can bet that it would cost a lot more.

How do you figure? I suppose you could be right, but it's not like the suggested retail for these things was originally $800 and now they're $500 or $600 with a 2-year plan.

[spotcatbug]

Originally Posted by apple007 How do you figure? I suppose you could be right, but it's not like the suggested retail for these things was originally $800 and now they're $500 or $600 with a 2-year plan.

By forcing you to get a plan when you buy it, they are able to quote a discounted price, without having to tell you the real price. I mean, an iPhone does not cost $599 (or $499), right? It costs $599 (or $499) plus a 2-year contract. Those are not the same.

Well, I thought a little more. I suppose it's possible that none of that 2-year contract money makes it back to Apple, in which case those quoted prices would be the real prices. However, seeing how the cell phone industry has worked up until now, that just doesn't seem to fit, and why would they then force a 2-year contract? If Apple doesn't get any of the money, you would think they'd be happy to sell the phone without a contract of any kind.

[torifile]

Originally Posted by apple007 How do you figure? I suppose you could be right, but it's not like the suggested retail for these things was originally $800 and now they're $500 or $600 with a 2-year plan.

So what's the non-contract price of an iPhone? How do we know it's not subsidized? Because Apple said so?

[MCQ]

http://news.com.com/ATT+hoping+the+i...ml?tag=st.next

Lurie declined to say how much money AT&T is spending to market the iPhone or how many phones it expects to sell. He said he was not concerned that consumers would balk at the price of the iPhone, which costs $499 or $599, depending on how much memory it has. The phones require a two-year service contract and, unlike most other phones AT&T offers, it will not be subsidized by the company.

[torifile]

Originally Posted by MCQ http://news.com.com/ATT+hoping+the+i...ml?tag=st.next Lurie declined to say how much money AT&T is spending to market the iPhone or how many phones it expects to sell. He said he was not concerned that consumers would balk at the price of the iPhone, which costs $499 or $599, depending on how much memory it has. The phones require a two-year service contract and, unlike most other phones AT&T offers, it will not be subsidized by the company.

I get that and I remember that article but my point remains the same - what's the non-contract price of the iPhone? I bet if, and when, the iPhone can be purchased without a contract, it'll cost more even though it's not subsidized.

It's like when I rented my last apartment - I didn't *have* to sign a lease for a year, but I got 2 months free if I did. I've lived in other places where I had to sign a lease for a year. What's the difference? As long as it's a fair contract, I don't get the hue and cry about this.

Personally, I hate contracts, but if the iPhone works as advertised, it'll ease my mind on a daily basis (syncing my PDA/smartphones has been a nearly never-ending headache for me for YEARS). That would be worth it for me.

[apple007]

Originally Posted by torifile So what's the non-contract price of an iPhone? How do we know it's not subsidized? Because Apple said so?

Okay, then how do we know it is? Because AT&T has said so? (They haven't, that I've seen.)

Either way, the bottom line price for an iPhone, if you really need to have one, is $500 or $600 plus the $175 early termination fee. That means, at most, the iPhone is "subsidized" to the tune of $175, but that conflicts with everything Apple has said thus far. (Every analyst I've seen seems to think the $175 ETF is simply price-gouging by AT&T and not reflective of the need to recoup any alleged subsidization of the handset.)

[apple007]

Originally Posted by spotcatbug By forcing you to get a plan when you buy it, they are able to quote a discounted price, without having to tell you the real price. I mean, an iPhone does not cost $599 (or $499), right? It costs $599 (or $499) plus a 2-year contract. Those are not the same.

No, iPhone costs $499 or $599 plus a $175 early termination fee. Whether a buyer continues to subscribe to AT&T is entirely up to the buyer.

Well, I thought a little more. I suppose it's possible that none of that 2-year contract money makes it back to Apple, in which case those quoted prices would be the real prices. However, seeing how the cell phone industry has worked up until now, that just doesn't seem to fit, and why would they then force a 2-year contract? If Apple doesn't get any of the money, you would think they'd be happy to sell the phone without a contract of any kind.

That's just naive. AT&T has an exclusive on the product so they're using that exclusive to their maximum advantage (e.g., requiring a contract, charging an ETF for a non-subsidized phone, possibly charging higher data rates, etc.). And again, no one is forced to stay with AT&T, at least in principle. A person can simply plop down $499 or $599 and then pay the $175 ETF on the spot.

[torifile]

Every analyst I've seen seems to think the $175 ETF is simply price-gouging by AT&T and not reflective of the need to recoup any alleged subsidization of the handset

You're awfully prone to hyperbole, aren't you? I have never heard a real analyst talk about a company using the term "price gouging". It's standard practice that if you break a contract - any contract - there are monetary penalties to be paid.

It's got nothing to do with subsidies, really. That's how customers get lured into signing up for a contract - by offering a free/cheap phone - but the ETF isn't *because* the phone was subsidized. The subsidies are the reason wireless service is so pricey in the US, not the reason for ETFs.

The iPhone is different because AT&T doesn't need to lure people in with low prices. BTW, have any of you ever seen the price on a whizzbang PocketPC when they come? With contract, I paid $449 for my Cingular 8525 and it wasn't half the phone the iPhone is promising to be.

If you've never been in the market for a high end phone, it would come as a shock but I've been buying (and selling) electronics for a long time now. I guess this is why I don't get all the complaining.

[apple007]

Originally Posted by torifile You're awfully prone to hyperbole, aren't you? I have never heard a real analyst talk about a company using the term "price gouging". It's standard practice that if you break a contract - any contract - there are monetary penalties to be paid.

And you're awfully prone to either being obtuse or changing the subject.

The topic at hand was: Is the Apple iPhone being subsidized by AT&T? You took the "yes" position, and then as soon as people refuted you -- by quoting AT&T itself -- all of a sudden you're claiming that wasn't really your point anyway.

As for the "standard practice" of imposing monetary penalties when one breaks a contract, such penalties are for the purpose of recouping damages and/or lost revenue (e.g., money lost upfront in the form of a subsidized phone, or lost rent when one breaks a lease).

Since we've established that the Apple iPhone is NOT being subsidized by AT&T, then charging an ETF is simply profiteering on AT&T's part. (I used the phrase "price gouging" earlier but "profiteering" is a better description.) Otherwise, if AT&T hasn't subsidized the phone, then how has AT&T been damaged by a contract being broken?

Penalties are imposed when someone has been injured. No subsidy = no injury to AT&T. (Personally, in iPhone's case, I believe any ETF imposed is far more likely because of amortized marketing costs than because of an alleged handset subsidy.)

It's got nothing to do with subsidies, really. That's how customers get lured into signing up for a contract - by offering a free/cheap phone - but the ETF isn't *because* the phone was subsidized. The subsidies are the reason wireless service is so pricey in the US, not the reason for ETFs.

Uh, really? Says who?

How can phone subsidies both be unrelated to ETFs *AND* be the reason for "pricey" cellular service in the U.S.? That makes no sense.

The iPhone is different because AT&T doesn't need to lure people in with low prices. BTW, have any of you ever seen the price on a whizzbang PocketPC when they come? With contract, I paid $449 for my Cingular 8525 and it wasn't half the phone the iPhone is promising to be. If you've never been in the market for a high end phone, it would come as a shock but I've been buying (and selling) electronics for a long time now. I guess this is why I don't get all the complaining.

I disagree that pricing is not an issue for iPhone -- in the last survey I saw, 89% of cellular users said they aren't interested in an iPhone at the $499/$599 prices -- but no one here is really talking about the price of the phone anyway. (Note the thread title "AT&T Rate Plan ...")

Personally, I haven't complained at all about the $499/$599 prices. My complaint is with the possibility of getting charged 200% more for a data plan on iPhone compared to AT&T's existing data plans on top of buying an unsubsidized phone.