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Join Date: Jun 2004
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It just seems to me that the idea that Apple will be blindsighted by the the release of SP2 and scrambling to update the app seems a little ridiculous to me. Even if (big if) iTunes were to be mysteriously broken upon the release of SP2, it would take them what, 1, 2 days to get it fixed? I think it's already been shown that Apple has taken steps to make iTunes on Windows as perfect and bug free as possible. Any less and it would destroy any favorable perception of them by Windows users, analysts etc... As for listing all the software that has mysteriously broken before the release of a competing Microsoft product... I'll take you up on that To me this sounds quite fishy. If the actual installation of a product broke a competing product, that might be news. But I think it'd be far too risky for Microsoft to do that. And scheduling Windows updates with new application releases? Also seems quite unlikely to me. I'm really curious, because you seem to claim tons of "Microsoft competitively breaking apps" cases occur. But I'll settle for two |
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=36905 Quote:
#2 Lotus 1-2-3 http://www.lowendmac.com/practical/01/1106.html Quote:
http://www.linspire.com/lindows_mich...hp?id=65&all=1 Quote:
Last edited by feend : 2004-07-21 at 08:55. |
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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Apple Historian
Join Date: May 2004
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If you want to know more about Microsoft's problematic past and present, check out www.kmfms.com
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Not sayin', just sayin'
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I believe that MS did this "breaking" to Real Player too, or so it was claimed anyway. (Remember when streaming media was supposed to be the next Big Thing?)
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Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Arlington, VA
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My fee is $200.00 to get rid of spyware and give alacrity back to the system. I like Micro$oft and their fuckups. It makes me money. |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
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And this stuff (and worse) still goes on. The only thing worse than being a MSFT competitor (like Opera who just got $12 million for MSFT making their browser look buggy) is working with Microsoft (like Sendo did to their cost). |
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Antimatter Man
Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
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Microsoft also intentionally crippled some versions of QuickTime (in the 95/98 era) in order to compel users to depend on .wmv, despite the fact that QT was a higher quality stream with better codecs.
From the Findings of Fact in the MS AntiTrust Suit come these historical refs |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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Yeah, MS has done some shady things in the past, but I agree with Synotic, the chances of MS deliberately breaking iTunes in SP2 is highly unlikely. Maybe you'll have to tweak a few settings to fix streaming or mess with your firewall to get the store going but it'll still happily play your music. Though I'm sure any Windows user that has Quicktime/iTunes set as their default media player(s) will have it reset to WMP.
Huh, reading through my own post I've said that MS won't break iTunes except for sharing music, using the iTMS and forcing WMP on Windows users. I guess MS will break iTunes with SP2. |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
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MS won't break iTunes with SP2. After all, what would cause people to switch to a Mac faster than losing access to a few hundred dollars worth of already bought and paid-for music?
As for the whole thing about MS Windows, well, you can say it's crap, but here's the question: if OS X was given the same amount of time, attention, and TLC from the world's best (worst) hackers, would it stand up so well? Only those behind the curtain at Cupertino know that answer. I mean, everyone calls MS's stuff crap, but how many of us have seen the actual polished code? As for the leaked stuff, anyone who is a programmer in here will tell you working code doesn't mean clean code. You clean and refactor code when you are done getting it to work. As for the repeated trouble so many have with Windows machines, here's my take (for the 1.5 cents its worth): I have a PIII Coppermine @ 1GHz. I've had it for over 3 years, with Win Me the first year and XP Pro since then. For the first two years I used IE before switching to FireFox. My reason for switching was tabbed browsing (as Brad can attest to) not stability or security. Also, for almost all of those three years, it's been hooked into a broadband network (either a college LAN or DSL). Yes, I have had to reinstall the OS, about once a year. However, I've only done it once because of a virus or worm. My computer runs fine, isn't slow, doesn't thrash (unless I'm doing something that SHOULD make it thrash - like rendering or something) and didn't crash until I installed a Beta of Longhorn. The other two times were because of the desire to just wipe it and start over (too much crap installed, didn't know what everything was anymore and I like to know what EVERYTHING on my computer it). My point in all this is that the reason Macs are more stable and Mac users have better results is for two reasons: First, OS X does not get the attention from hackers that Windows and IE gets. That means fewer viruses written and fewer security holes discovered and exploited. The other reason is because people who use macs are generally not stupid enough to download anything and everything that comes through their email, web browser, etc. People who use macs are just more intelligent than your average PC user. You buy a Mac because you know what you are getting. Most people buy a PC because computers are cool!!! (or something else just as asinine) PC users get viruses and worms because they (on average) aren't that bright and don't take care of their computers. Mac users take care of their computers (mostly - Brad uses his like a lab rat). As for me, well, I use NAV, ZoneAlaram, and I still run IIS (MS's Web Server) all the time. Yes Brad, I switched from Apache back to IIS...for developer reasons. Still haven't had much of a problem and don't expect to until the fans go out in my power supply (they're starting to vibrate a little). When that happens, I'll get down off my soapbox, go out, buy a Mac and join the cool club :smokey:. Until then, I'll be here waiting for the response in a crouching and defensive position (just no tomatoes please). [Edit: at no point do I mean to imply that MS is a good company or that they aren't anti-competitive; I'm just making a point about what I think is the biggest reason for Windows bad reputation] |
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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A lot of it comes down to old fashion bad design and not thinking through the possibilities. Yes, as you said, one can just lay the blame on stupid Joe Sixpack, but isn't one of the first goals in Operating Systems 101 to make a system that protects the user from doing stupid things? I'd love to see the number of programmers at MS working on Windows and the number of people doing QA on it. Quote:
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The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting. |
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler (translation: "One World, One Empire, One Leader") |
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Antimatter Man
Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
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Not sure if I'd have to search here or .com, but past threads on this topic have noted:
Windows ships with 5 open ports. Default state is insecure. OS X ships with 0 open ports. Default state is secure. SP2 is adding firewall functions to XP that were present in X three years ago. IIS vs Apache... puhleeze. We Are Morons |
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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Another point to realize, is that the best (or as you call them, the worst) hackers are in the vast vast minority. Creating a virus for Windows isn't rocket science, if it was, they wouldn't have the hundreds (thousands?) of viruses that exist today. It would take a particularly gifted hacker (even more rare) to truly take advantage of the design of Unix, and off it, create a virus. It would be the existance of these type of viruses that would necessitate a SP2 of sorts for Apple. But they're already at that point, so perhaps an SP3. On the other hand a "good" hacker may be able to find his own bug within a system and exploit it. But like I explained earlier, these type of bugs are easily fixed. Quote:
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For Mac users, there's no reason not to download every attachment in an e-mail or check out that "Really cool greeting card!". Because it doesn't affect them. If that same Mac user begins to use a PC, and continues his or her actions, and gets a virus, does that make the Mac user more or less of an idiot? The fact is, lots of things which we may find funny or stupid are not obvious. We learned lots of the same things the way that "idiots" do. Through making mistakes and becoming informed, after being ignorant. Using a Mac does not make you smarter. One might even say that a Mac makes it easier for an idiot to make mistakes without causing problems. Another might say that this is one of the strengths of the Mac. Likewise, using a PC doesn't make you an idiot. How many university professors, scientists and the like use PCs? Are they idiots? Perhaps to them a computer is a tool merely used to get a job done. Sure, there may be better tools out there, but it's secondary to their work. Do you always research toaster brands or furniture brands or do you simply make a choice based on features, how the cushions feel etc...? Does this make you any more of an idiot than the audiofile that dedicates his life to choosing the best audio equiptment. I may use crappy headphones, but for me it's secondary to actually enjoying life. I'm sure that someone out there thinks that I'm an idiot, but frankly I don't care. I won't become suddenly smarter after switching over to Sennheiser earphones over whatever's "in" now. Another quick point I wanted make; how many times have you seen PC users asking about virus protection, spyware detectors and the like for Macs? Lots of Mac users generally aren't familiar with viruses, worms and spyware. In this respect, the PC users are more informed than a good deal of Mac users. It wouldn't surprise me if these same users were a lot safer and didn't download and run every attachment they got on their Mac. All this from using a PC. Sorry, I've poorly presented my argument and used half a dozen analogies but hopefully my point came across. it just annoys me whenever I hear the baseless "Mac users are smarter than PC users" spiel. Quote:
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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Oh wait... http://news.netcraft.com/archives/20...er_survey.html |
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Now, things like buffer overflows and the like are easily fixed. Unfortunately, just because a fix is available doesn't mean people actually get the update and apply it. Remember Red Alert? A comp sci doctorate guy came into one of my senior project classes one day and showed us an animation of the spread of Red Alert around the world. Almost all of the viruses and worms that actaully make the news spread either through exploits like buffer overflows or stupid features like Outlook's attachment auto-open feature. I agree that exploits like that are easy to fix. But you must remember that PC users aren't known for actively updating their system on a regular basis. I know a lot of people complain about the Windows Auto Updater and how it probably has some security holes, but after all, if it gets people to update and close up holes, then I think it's a great app! Design flaws are one thing and I think with Longhorn (maybe even with XP SP2), they will be much more difficult to find and exploit; as you said, MS is trying to redesign and make things better. I think the initial problems came from an over idealistic design group. However, code bugs and exploits will continue to appear and unless people willingly update their computers, those holes will not be closed. One thing PC users have to deal with is the fact that viruses on a network spread themselves. "You have it and now they do and now the network is jammed. Update your fricking computer!!" Quote:
If you'll allow me to rephrase my initial statement: "I think someone who buys a Mac as their Personal Computer is making a more intelligent decision than someone who buys a PC." Of course, what's best could someday change, but that's the way I see it for now. And thanks for holding off on the tomatoes. |
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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[center][/center] edit: Ha! I can't believe Kasper still hasn't cleaned up my giant catalog of images I put on AppleInsider's server ages ago. Lazy. Anyhow, here are images I took when Panther was new of Software Update in 10.3 listing updates, installing, and optimizing (prebinding). As you can see, Apple bundles together "combo" updates for users that are several updates behind the current cycle (the 10.2.5 in that pic will update any system with 10.2.x to the then-current 10.2.5). Updates are listed by the name of the components they update and are accompanied by a description below. The items listed with the triangle-in-a-circle indicate that a restart will be required after installing. However, you can install a dozen things that each require restarting all at once and only restart once when they're all finished. Installing doesn't require you to close any running apps. In 10.3, Software Update has an option to automatically download critical updates in the background. The feature is *off* by default, and even when it is turned on, the updates are only downloaded, never installed without your approving them. edit: Important to note: any user can click software update, but only an administrator can download and install updates. You have to authenticate (yes, even if you are already logged in as the admin) after clicking the Install button above. Alternatively, you can download updaters directly from links at www.apple.com which also typically lists a checksum of each installer for the extra paranoid folks. Once an update rolls out, Apple stops shipping the existing Mac OS X CDs with new Macs and in off-the-shelf boxes and sends to the presses a new installer image that already has the updates rolled in. That means if you were to buy 10.3 today you wouldn't have to download oodles of updates once you'd installed it. Quote:
The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting. |
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Sub-PowerBook Lobbyist
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Washington, DC
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Sounds almost like Big Blue (IBM) in Apple's 1984 ad... My wife just left for a two week trip. First thing I did was remove the PC keyboard and mouse from my desk so that my Apple Wireless Keyboard and Mouse can shine in all their glory. The CPU is already out of sight in the back corner underneath my desk. Escher I've been waiting for a true sub-PowerBook for more than 10 years. The 11-inch MacBook Air finally delivers on all counts! It beats the hell out of both my PowerBook 2400c and my 12-inch PowerBook G4 -- no contest whatsoever. |
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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This is not the case on the Mac at all. Macs are not susceptible to Windows viruses or spyware, and there are no native Mac viruses or spyware. As has already been stated in this thread, Macs are more secure out of the box than Windows machines. This isn't an issue of people not trying hard enough to make Mac viruses, i.e. "security by obscurity" - OS X is more secure, period. Even those proof of concept trojans couldn't break OS X's built in permissions, the only thing they could affect was the home directory of whoever was logged in at that time, and even then only after the user made a conscious decision to run the file. This is in comparison to the Windows side, where viruses and spyware will destroy your entire machine without you even being aware that it's happening. My name is Xaqtly, and I'm a Mac user that lives in a house with a PC that has to run Norton Antivirus, Spy Sweeper and SpyBot 24/7 just to stay usable, despite the fact that we have a hardware firewall in place. |
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Microbial member
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Wilfully off-topic, but I can't help myself:
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Last edited by staph : 2004-07-23 at 12:25. |
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