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Imcompetence or just old fashioned dishonesty?


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Imcompetence or just old fashioned dishonesty?
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jbaugh
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Join Date: May 2005
 
2005-05-05, 08:57

I ordered a PM dual 2.7 with custom options on 4/27/05. I was given an estimated ship date of 5/4/05. When I checked the order status one day prior to estimated shipping, a new message had been added to my order status, indicating that my order had been changed due to a "new product". No estimated shipping date was indicated. I called Apple and I was told that the new product was "Tiger". Obviously this is not true since Tiger ships with every PM 2.7. But I was assured that my order would be shipped with only one day delay--i.e., it would ship 5/5/05. I called Apple again last night since I was not satisfied with my first response. This time the representative told me that the "new product" refered to the fact that the PMs had just been updated. I pointed out that I had ordered a PM 2.7 on 4/27/05 and that no update has been anounced for the just released model. I was assured that my Mac was scheduled for shipping on 5/5/05. This morning I got an email from Apple informing me that my order would not be shipped until 5/16/2005.
Is this an example of simple incompetence and poor communication within Apple? Or is this plain old fashioned dishonesty? Whichever is the case, it reflects poorly on Apple.
Last year I ordered the PM 2.5 immediately after it was announced. After repeated delays and postponements of shipping I finally cancelled that order. I suspect I will likely do the same with my current order.
John Baughman
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torifile
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2005-05-05, 09:25

Dude, it's been "delayed" by 11 days. You don't even know if it will be late. But I think that they thought "oh, this guys name looks like it might be "limbaugh" so let's screw him over just in case."

I suspect that you were asking the wrong people about why it was delayed. They probably only see what you're seeing.
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alcimedes
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2005-05-05, 09:59

I've seen a few posts scattered around here and there about PowerMac shipments being delayed for an "update".

Not sure if they're having trouble getting parts, if they're really upgrading something or what.

However, I have learned in the past that ordering the best XYZ from Apple right after it's announced will often lead to shipping delays. They never seem able to guage demand properly. If you have an Apple store near you, you could probably walk in the door and walk out with the machine.

Google is your frenemy.
Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty
I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me
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kevie
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Join Date: Mar 2005
 
2005-05-05, 10:30

yeah i was just on the phone yesterday with a local apple store in my city and they had the PM 2.7 in stock and that if i wanted to i could go down and pick one up. Must be something with ordering online. Yeah im kind of not sure if i should order FCS since its gonna take 4-6 weeks to ship it, but i guess i have to since i can only buy it online to get a student discount.
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jkloos
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2005-05-05, 11:05

I also just ordered a pm 2.7 mine is supposed to be here on or before tomorrow. As of this post it is still in manufacturing. I am wondering though what parts are in your powermac. I have the 6800 for graphics card standard 512 ram and a 400 gig drive. I'm hearing a lot stuff about people who bought 2.7's getting delayed. Since mine has not been replaced with new porduct is it possible the delay is from the 9650 video card?
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jbaugh
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2005-05-05, 11:21

I just got off the phone cancelling my PM order. I custom ordered:
2 X 400 Gig hard drives
2 X 1 GB RAM
NVIDIA Geforce card
wireless mouse and keyboard

Perhaps I am too hasty in cancelling. But I went through many weeks last year when I ordered the newly released PM 2.5. Multiple delays in shipping amounting to 2 months or more if I recall correctly.

I can just plod along with my PB 800 for now. I'll wait until Apple releases their next new architecture PM and just be reconcilled to the idea that it will be a long wait (long wait before new architecture announced and then likely a long wait before it ships).
John
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jkloos
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Join Date: Mar 2005
 
2005-05-05, 11:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbaugh

I can just plod along with my PB 800 for now. I'll wait until Apple releases their next new architecture PM and just be reconcilled to the idea that it will be a long wait (long wait before new architecture announced and then likely a long wait before it ships).
John

i have been hearing around they're bumping them up. to better machines maybe you should've waited.
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jbaugh
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2005-05-05, 11:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkloos
i have been hearing around they're bumping them up. to better machines maybe you should've waited.
I hope you are right about that. If that's the case, then I can always place a new order. I wouldn't mind waiting 11 days or even 2-3 weeks if Apple is shipping a MAJOR upgrade to the PM line. Like the rumored dual core processors. But I'm not holding my breath.
John
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jkloos
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2005-05-05, 11:49

i think your only bumped if you still have an order placed.
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torifile
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2005-05-05, 12:00

You guys are crazy. Apple just upgraded the line. It's not going to be upgraded for a while yet. Don't hold your breath.
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jkloos
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2005-05-05, 12:06

naw man i just wanted him to feel stupid for cancelling.
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shift99
 
 
2005-05-05, 12:17

FWIW, I had the *exact* same thing happen to my order. dual 2.0 G5 w/upgraded video card (9650).

Order placed on 4/27 with original ship date of 5/4. yesterday i noticed the "new product" status and when I called, the rep could not explain why that was as none of the parts had changed. this morning I had a new ship date of 5/12. when I called today, the rep told me that they had updated some hardware, yet could not give me any explaination when I pointed out the the part lists are identical. I gave up at that point, as I didn't feel like arguing.

my guess is that they are simply running behind in filling orders. the cynic in me wonders if completed orders are going off to more important customers.
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bassplayinMacFiend
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Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2005-05-05, 12:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevie
yeah i was just on the phone yesterday with a local apple store in my city and they had the PM 2.7 in stock and that if i wanted to i could go down and pick one up. Must be something with ordering online. Yeah im kind of not sure if i should order FCS since its gonna take 4-6 weeks to ship it, but i guess i have to since i can only buy it online to get a student discount.
You can buy from the physical Apple store using your educational discount. You'll need your college ID and a photo ID, which they will photocopy for their records. I did this when I bought my AlBook back in '03. You can get edu discounts on hardware but not on software at the physical store.
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jbaugh
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Join Date: May 2005
 
2005-05-06, 15:30

Well, there was a pretty good discussion going on over at the Apple discussion boards concerning my post about this issue. That is until the Apple gestapo removed the thread. The email they sent me explaining the removal was very hostile. I kinda half way expect Steve Jobs to personally show up at my door with a box full of dead fish.

I realize that it is Apple's web site and they can control it in any way they desire. But since they do not make it very easyfor their loyal customers to send them critical feedback I would think they would be a little more conciliatory.

But it was a useful endeavor in any event. I learned that numerous other Mac users are having or have had similar ordering experiences. I think the best post was the one in which it was said that Apple was not dishonest or incompetent but simply arrogant. They know that the Mac faithful will put up with any kind of sloppy customer service for the privilege of using Apple products.
John
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torifile
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2005-05-06, 16:48

jbaugh, what are you looking for, exactly? It's neither of your two choices in your thread title. I don't think they're arrogant either. Apple's in business to make money. They don't make money by postponing shipments.
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jbaugh
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2005-05-06, 17:14

torifile,
I like analogies. Let me give you one.

Let's say you see an ad in your newspaper that a brick and mortar store in your town is selling "Super computer X". The ad says "We have them in stock. Take one home today!" You drive over to the store. Sure enough there are signs posted on the front window: "Super computer x in stock. Take yours home today!" Inside the store you fork over your credit card to pay for your computer. Then you tell the clerk, "Bring me my new computer so I can get it home and start having fun with it". The clerk stammers a little and then says, "Well, we don't actually have the computer ready for you to take home today. But lucky you. You are getting an updated product for no additional cost. Come back tomorrow and it will be all yours." You are a bit miffed. But you figure, "Oh well, one more day won't matter that much". You arrrive bright and early to the store the next day to pick up your bright shiny computer. The clerk looks you straight in the eye and tells you, "Well, the updated product we promised you yesterday is really only the new operating software that was advertized as part of the product to begin with. And the computer is not ready for you to take home today. Check back with us in 12 days. We may have the computer ready before then, but we estimate it may take up to 12 days before you can pick it up".

What would be your reaction to this retailer? Wouldn't you wonder about the integrity or business competence of such a dealer? Might you be tempted to cancel your order?

Well, this is almost verbatim what has happened to me in my interaction with the online Apple store. Not just once, but twice in the past year. First with the PM 2.5 and now with the PM 2.7. If you search the net you will find other people reporting the same experience with the online Apple store.

If "arrogant", "dishonest" or incompetent don't describe the situation, exactly what term would you use?

You ask, "what are you looking for, exactly?"
Well, I am only asking to be treated honestly and in a cordial fashion by a company that wants my money.
John
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holbox
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Florida
 
2005-05-06, 20:54

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbaugh
torifile,


If "arrogant", "dishonest" or incompetent don't describe the situation, exactly what term would you use?

John
Easy ....... they're selling a lot of product, behind in their orders, and'll get you the product as soon as it can be built.

They don't know you from Adam. Why would they single you out and be mean??

Everybody I've had any contact with at Apple has been damn nice and bent over backwards to be that way.

I think one term that would fit what you describe is "paranoia"!

Sorry, but you did ask .........
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Late Payment Charge
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Join Date: Apr 2005
 
2005-05-06, 21:11

If "arrogant", "dishonest" or incompetent don't describe the situation, exactly what term would you use?

"You being a baby" describes the situation pretty good, if you ask me.
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jbaugh
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Join Date: May 2005
 
2005-05-06, 21:24

Late Payment Charge,
Thanks for your insightful comments. Very helpful. I hope you didn't strain your single functioning neuron to come up with that reply. Well, after all you are the one that stooped to insults first.
John
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Late Payment Charge
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Join Date: Apr 2005
 
2005-05-06, 21:26

Hey man, I call it like I see it.
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jbaugh
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Join Date: May 2005
 
2005-05-06, 21:40

Quote:
Originally Posted by holbox
They don't know you from Adam. Why would they single you out and be mean??
Uh... where did you see me claim I was being singled out for mistreatment? Maybe you could read my original post again. And the one with the analogy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by holbox
Everybody I've had any contact with at Apple has been damn nice and bent over backwards to be that way.
And your point is....? Like me saying to you when you report that a dog bit you.... "Every dog I've had contact with has been damn nice...." I never complained about any Apple employee. It's the system, stupid. Sorry but you asked for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by holbox
I think one term that would fit what you describe is "paranoia"!

Sorry, but you did ask .........
No, I don't recall asking you to insult me. I don't even recall asking you to describe me at all. I asked how you would describe the online Apple store practices.

Yes. I suppose the clerk in my earlier analogy might dimiss the disgruntled customer by calling him paranoid. But on what basis? His expectations that the store would fullfil its promises?

By the way. I already retract the "stupid" comment above. It just seemed to fit in naturally to the flow of the conversation. I do not believe or purport to say that you are stupid.
Cordially,
John
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jbaugh
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Join Date: May 2005
 
2005-05-06, 21:47

Quote:
Originally Posted by Late Payment Charge
Hey man, I call it like I see it.
Like to shoot from the hip or err... lip I guess.
It is quite interesting to me that you and some others (holbox to name one) seem to think shoddy customer service is a privilege that Apple is entitled to.
That's fine. I'm all for differences of opinion. But it really doesn't have to get nasty and personal, does it?

Thanks for the input. This is my last statement on a subject that has been driven into the ground. Let's let it rest.
John
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Late Payment Charge
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Join Date: Apr 2005
 
2005-05-06, 21:59

okee doke
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runner91786
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Join Date: Oct 2004
 
2005-05-06, 22:30

Why are you making such a big deal out of this jbaugh? I mean canceling the order and depriving yourself of a new computer doesn't seem reasonable. You are just like the customers that come to Best Buy to me on like thurs, when the ad was released sun, and are made because we are out of stock of x item. Well since the deal was had by soo many soo soon, they have to wait. Unfortunate for them, but there is nothing I can do.

This is the same with Apple. The customer service representatives can only do so much to help you out. They can't like run over to the plant and be like, "Oh hey guys, by the way...this guy wants his computer now, so can we step up production a bit? Muchas Gracias companeros!"

I mean no offense to you, but you should have figured out this time that it will take a little longer, obviously, to ship. Regardless of how you interpret the ad for the new product. Just sit in line and wait, and you will be happy when you get the product. You may even receive it ahead of schedule.

I do however think you are being completely reasonable when you say the update of the tiger operating system is causing the delay. That is kind of dumb for a new product, but if you think about it harder you can rationalize it. They load OS 10.3 onto hard drives all day everyday, for no particular computer and the drives are popped in and shipped out. Its not exactly an eld that makes things perfect for you with your name on it and sealed with a kiss. So they just have to re-load all those drives they prepare ahead of time and OS 10.4 or load new ones, whatever the case. So in turn, this actually would show the real reason for the delay.

Hope I could be of some reassurance. But seriously, go ahead and place your order and wait in line. I mean if you plan to work on your outdated powerbook in the meantime, then continue to do as planned, and then your new Powermac will arrive and you can move on to bigger and better things.
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holbox
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Florida
 
2005-05-07, 05:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by runner91786
Why are you making such a big deal out of this jbaugh?

Hope I could be of some reassurance. But seriously, go ahead and place your order and wait in line. I mean if you plan to work on your outdated powerbook in the meantime, then continue to do as planned, and then your new Powermac will arrive and you can move on to bigger and better things.
This guy (jbaugh) gets his kicks out of ranting and raving about how bad the rest of the world is and then gets all pale and innocent when someone calls him on it.

He can't be reassured. Remember we're all part of the "rest of the world."

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Nugget
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2005-05-07, 09:14

Quote:
Originally Posted by runner91786
Why are you making such a big deal out of this jbaugh? I mean canceling the order and depriving yourself of a new computer doesn't seem reasonable.
I agree that cancelling the order might be a bit of an overreaction, but I can sure see where jbaugh is coming from on this issue. Perhaps it helps that I'm in the same situation as he is.

My order, placed the morning of 27 April, was originally supposed to arrive on or before 4 May. This was right on target for the "5-7 business days" estimate I was given at the time I placed the order.

On the 4th, however, Apple pushed back my estimated ship date to 13 May, which is an effective ship time of 17 days from when I placed my order.

So, yeah, I'm a little bit disappointed, but if Apple's getting slammed with orders then it means that some of us have to wait and there's nothing much that I or anyone else can do to speed up that process. There's room to gripe that Apple poorly estimated demand, and that by now they should damn well know how to to a better job estimating demand. There's plenty of room to make that complaint, but it doesn't really serve anyone. Apple knows that too and I'm sure -- absolutely sure -- that Apple didn't want this delay to happen any more than I did.

BUT! (and here's the only solid complaint, in my mind) On the 4th, when Apple revised my shipping time to the 13th (at the time a 9 day delay) you could go to the Apple online store and spec out a purchase identical to mine in every way and be blissfully told that your computer would ship in 3-5 business days. So, there I was facing 9 days of additional delay and new orders were being told that 3-5 was the estimate. Either I or the hypothetical customer were being given bunk estimates. It's critical that Apple be making realistic shipment estimates on the Apple online store so that buyer's can make informed decisions and not be surprised by consequent delays.

So, back to the thread title, is it incompetence in the form of Apple yet again failing to stockpile enough kit to meet the ensuing demand? Is it dishonesty because they don't want to tell customers the true delay because they don't want to deter possible sales? I'd lean against dishonesty because it seems like they've already fixed the discrepancy. Today I'm happy to see that Apple seems to be doing exactly that. I put an identical machine to my order in my shopping cart at the Apple store and the estimated shipping time is 2-3 weeks. I'm pleased to see that the Apple store is now accurately representing the delays that are actually being seen in the pipeline and that's all I can really ask for.

For whatever it's worth, the delay seems to be tied directly to the 6800 Ultra DDL graphics card. Changing the system configuration back to the Radeon 9650 brings the shipping estimate down to 7-10 days. A stock config still claims to ships next day.

At the end of the day I, jbaugh, and many other folks here are just grumpy because we want our shiny new computers. I've got 5-7 more days of waiting to do and I suppose I'll fill all the emtpy space with bitching and moaning on online forums. It's all I'm left with.
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ZogDog
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2005-05-07, 10:29

Meh, I think jbaugh is gettin slack where slack is not needed. He hasn't bitched or complained like the typical "complainer." He merely stated, and made very clear in his analogy, he doesn't appreciate being told his product will be sent on a certain date, then another date, then another date.

Hell I'd be pissed to. His analogy works great and makes perfect sense. The point of the thread was for him to come to the Apple community and vent his frustrations and get some support. Some of you all have done that and others have pretty much told him to shut up and sit down. IMO I don't believe the Best Buy analogy works here. Having an order placed, then having it moved and moved again is not the same as going in 3 days after the sale starts only to find the products not in stock. Yeah, people that get pissy over that need to shove it, but this person bought it and was told 3 different times when he would be getting it.

What if they kept pushing it back? Hypothetically speaking, it kept going and going, never to get to him. Would that then make his point valid? Yeah, this is a long post going on about the original post, but uhm, I just felt the poor guy got slammed for something I don't think he should have been slammed by those slamming him. Slammed is a dramatic use of the situation, but you get the idea.

..::| www.zogdog.com |::..
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alcimedes
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2005-05-07, 10:40

I think they found something wrong with how Tiger plays with the new hardware, or a problem with one of the parts in the actual machine.

Maybe they got a bad batch of video cards, or HD's, or any one of a number of possibilities. That would mean every machine in a batch (when your order was placed) would have to be redone, while new machines could go out the door assuming they had the right software/hardware combo.

The thing is that it makes no sense at all to delay orders unless you have to. Saying things like "Apple doesn't care because they know they can get away with it" is crap. No company decides not to ship a product on time because they can get away with it. Every delay costs them money.

Google is your frenemy.
Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty
I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me
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atomicbartbeans
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2005-05-07, 11:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbaugh
2 X 400 Gig hard drives
2 X 1 GB RAM
NVIDIA Geforce card
wireless mouse and keyboard
Holy crap man. How much that cost you?
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blehpunk
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Join Date: Apr 2005
 
2005-05-07, 11:52

ok i have you beat. I ordered a new bto imac last tuesday when they upgraded them. then i added on a printer. my computer is still at manufacturing, no big deal, but the printer shipped and was supposed to be here thursday. when i got home from work a 5' tall box was sitting in front of my door (i thought, damn, how big of a printer did i order?) i look at the box, its garden furniture for some other address 25 blocks away (without any sort of similar house number). I call fedex and tell them, they say my printer will be here by 8pm, it never comes. I called them yesterday, they said by 8pm again (the tracking still shows it on the truck) and it never comes. I woke up this morning (Saturday) to check the tracking and it says delivered! so i run around my house in my pajamas looking for the box somewhere, and it is nowhere to be found. now i have a giant box of garden furniture in my hallway and my printer is m.i.a. I called fedex and they are "working on it" then i called apple to beg them to not send my imac by fedex, or at least to look at the number on the house before leaving it-we had a big laugh about that one. please, everyone pray that my imac doesnt end up in someone elses hands!
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