[Capella]

Orlando has just suffered a mass shooting at a nightclub.

50 dead. 50+ more wounded.

I wanted to write a post about why this is so horrifying to me but I don't feel like I have the words to do it justice. Maybe it's because of the part where I'm surrounded by an upswelling of sympathy and support from people who think this is a tragic hate crime, but I know that there are people who aren't going to be moved by this. That there are people who are going to say that this is the wages of sin - that being gay is wrong, that these people deserve what happens to them because of who they are. Maybe it's anticipating the awful rhetoric that's likely to hit the Muslim community, tarring a whole group with the actions of a few in the way that Timothy McVeigh never tarred all Christians. Maybe I'm jaded and expecting people to not care as much about this tragedy because of who was targeted - and it was a targeted attack. The shooter's father has said his son got angry at seeing two men involved. This was a hate crime.

Maybe it's because I know we won't do anything about guns because of this. There were armed individuals including cops there, they didn't stop this until SWAT was called in, no single "good guy with a gun" aborted this before it ran to its horrific end. We didn't do anything after Sandy Hook, and those were "better" victims, innocent children. Not q*s and f*s and awful people like me, people who sin and who bring this on ourselves as God's wrath. It's going to be said we deserved this. And we're being told not to "politicize" this tragedy already - but it's okay to politicize our presence when we have to pee in Carolina. Right.

I'm angry, and I'm heartbroken, and I want to be able to do something about this. Instead, I'm just sitting here in tears. I have friends in Orlando, friends in this community, one of them I haven't heard from yet.

If anyone has links to any official fundraisers for this event, I'd appreciate it. Red Cross or other such organizations. Those hospitals are under lockdown and overworked right now, and I imagine they'll need something after this.

EDIT: Man with weapons arrested on way to pride parade in LA. Because the copycats are already out.

[Matsu]

Sad and terrible. How many shootings have to happen before Americans repeal the second amendment?

[Dr. Bobsky]

It isn't the second amendment that is the issue. It's us.

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by Capella EDIT: Man with weapons arrested on way to pride parade in LA. Because the copycats are already out.

Your link states the guy being questioned is a member of the LGBT community. So it's not looking like a copycat event.

[Capella]

Originally Posted by Frank777 Your link states the guy being questioned is a member of the LGBT community. So it's not looking like a copycat event.

Looks like the link has been updated since this afternoon, when I posted it. At that time it only mentioned that someone had been stopped with weaponry who was announcing going to the Pride event, and didn't include details about his name, the fact he had a boyfriend, or even details on the weaponry. The article mentions the misstatement by the police chief happened earlier today.
(The bottom of the article shows the update timeline as info is filled in.)

[Chinney]

I woke up to the news today and could barely believe it. So much loss due to one idiot gunman. Shit.

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by Capella Looks like the link has been updated since this afternoon, when I posted it.

Yep, didn't see the update section at the very bottom of the page.

[Matsu]

Not just one idiot gunman. A system and culture that fails repeatedly. America leads the western world, and by some margin, in mass shootings.

The second amendment needs a little work.

[Frank777]

Well that didn't take long.

[Dr. Bobsky]

It's kinda obvious that the homophobia promoted and given voice by the GOP is at least partially to blame for this...

[Matsu]

Surely the story has to be about how easily a "watched" person, could acquire military assault weapons in the first place. How can authorities be concerned enough to view a person as a potential threat, and yet that person can easily and legally buy the guns and ammunition to carry out the attack?

No one really wants to have that discussion, because the only answer is that, really, no one should be able to buy these weapons.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Dr. Bobsky It's kinda obvious that the homophobia promoted and given voice by the GOP is at least partially to blame for this...

Please point to the hordes of GOP politicians calling for mass murder. That sort of equivalence is just silly.

He was inspired by Islamic fanaticism. Attempting to smear Republicans with the blood of this tragedy to score cheap political points is just morally depraved bullshit.

Originally Posted by Matsu Surely the story has to be about how easily a "watched" person, could acquire military assault weapons in the first place. How can authorities be concerned enough to view a person as a potential threat, and yet that person can easily and legally buy the guns and ammunition to carry out the attack? No one really wants to have that discussion, because the only answer is that, really, no one should be able to buy these weapons.

Fifth Amendment?

[El Gallo]

Originally Posted by Matsu Surely the story has to be about how easily a "watched" person, could acquire military assault weapons in the first place. How can authorities be concerned enough to view a person as a potential threat, and yet that person can easily and legally buy the guns and ammunition to carry out the attack? No one really wants to have that discussion, because the only answer is that, really, no one should be able to buy these weapons.

Is that really the answer? The government can't do a proper job so let's just forgo our rights? Are there any other rights we should apply this too as well? Like when certain idiots declare that speech causes violence and government can't seem to regulate all the speech then we just forgo the right to free speech as an example.

Here are some things our government knew and did not act on at all....

#1 According to the Director of the FBI, Mateen had “links to al-Qaida, Hezbollah, and the Islamic State“.
#2 He made pilgrimages to Saudi Arabia in 2011 and 2012.
#3 According to the FBI, Mateen has “been on the radar before“, he was interviewed by them three separate times, and they conducted a 10 month investigation of his activities in 2013.
#4 Mateen once declared that he hoped to martyr himself someday, and the FBI knew all about this.
#5 Despite everything that the federal government knew about Mateen, he was still permitted to legally buy guns just last week.

The question should be how does a guy who was on the terror watch list TWICE not get flagged when doing a gun background check?

[kscherer]

That would require us to apply existing laws, and that wouldn't satisfy the "more laws" crowd.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by El Gallo Is that really the answer? The government can't do a proper job so let's just forgo our rights? Are there any other rights we should apply this too as well? Like when certain idiots declare that speech causes violence and government can't seem to regulate all the speech then we just forgo the right to free speech as an example. Here are some things our government knew and did not act on at all.... #1 According to the Director of the FBI, Mateen had “links to al-Qaida, Hezbollah, and the Islamic State“. #2 He made pilgrimages to Saudi Arabia in 2011 and 2012. #3 According to the FBI, Mateen has “been on the radar before“, he was interviewed by them three separate times, and they conducted a 10 month investigation of his activities in 2013. #4 Mateen once declared that he hoped to martyr himself someday, and the FBI knew all about this. #5 Despite everything that the federal government knew about Mateen, he was still permitted to legally buy guns just last week. The question should be how does a guy who was on the terror watch list TWICE not get flagged when doing a gun background check?

I'm ok giving up the right to own an assault weapon. I'm ok with it if it saves just one life. Completely ok with it. I don't consider it a right, nor do I consider it something worth defending or being emotional about. It's disturbing to me that there are so many people who feel otherwise. I think it says more about their mentality toward violence and guns than it does mine.

[El Gallo]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses I'm ok giving up the right to own an assault weapon. I'm ok with it if it saves just one life. Completely ok with it. I don't consider it a right, nor do I consider it something worth defending or being emotional about. It's disturbing to me that there are so many people who feel otherwise. I think it says more about their mentality toward violence and guns than it does mine.

I don't own a gun period. However I am passionate about my rights.

Have you considered a different angle since guns are just amoral tools? What about the means of driving the thoughts and ideals into the minds of the people who undertake these actions? Are those rights that you don't mind having severely curtailed or abridged? Why have young people spend hours mindlessly killing people in videogames like Call of Duty? How can it be good to spend hours of mental time figuring out how to deal drugs, kill enemies and exploit women in games like Grand Theft Auto? Finally what about movies and music that glorify violence, violence and hatred?

Shouldn't we severely curtail the rights of media companies to make or show such images which constitute speech?

I don't own those videogames. I've seen plenty of violent movies and listened to music that has distasteful lyrics.

If the point is the remove the tools that feed the violence, aren't those some of the tools? Should we ban those tools if it saves just one life?

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by El Gallo I don't own a gun period. However I am passionate about my rights. Have you considered a different angle since guns are just amoral tools? What about the means of driving the thoughts and ideals into the minds of the people who undertake these actions? Are those rights that you don't mind having severely curtailed or abridged? Why have young people spend hours mindlessly killing people in videogames like Call of Duty? How can it be good to spend hours of mental time figuring out how to deal drugs, kill enemies and exploit women in games like Grand Theft Auto? Finally what about movies and music that glorify violence, violence and hatred? Shouldn't we severely curtail the rights of media companies to make or show such images which constitute speech? I don't own those videogames. I've seen plenty of violent movies and listened to music that has distasteful lyrics. If the point is the remove the tools that feed the violence, aren't those some of the tools? Should we ban those tools if it saves just one life?

All of those are issues. I'd love things to be done to address all of those within reason.

It's within reason to ban assault weapons. Again, if it saves one life I think it is worth it. And evidence shows it will likely save a lot more than 1. Grand Theft Auto itself hasn't killed thousands of people. Assault weapons are designed and produced to kill. Period. That's their purpose. And they do it more efficiently than other gun options. Why? Why do civilians need access to that killing power? If it ever got to a point where we all needed those... my god.... we should all die

Life is too short to get butt hurt about your "right" to own an assault weapon. Go enjoy the greater things in life instead of defending your right to own a weapon of war.

[kscherer]

Fear leads to the dark side!

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Dr. Bobsky It's kinda obvious that the homophobia promoted and given voice by the GOP is at least partially to blame for this...

He was a democrat.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by Dave He was a democrat.

Who cares what the fuck he was?

Both of your comments are ridiculous.

[Chinney]

Obama gave a great speech today on the issue. It is rare that I watch a whole speech by any politician, but I am glad that I watched that one.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses Who cares what the fuck he was? Both of your comments are ridiculous.

I was just pointing out that this guy's actions weren't likely motivated by "the gop's homophobia", since he's a democrat. I haven't posted anything else about this, so I'm not sure what other comment of mine you're talking about.

[Elysium]

Originally Posted by Dave He was a democrat.

Well he has to be, he's a minority. And we all know about how the GOP feels about those.*





* These statements are fully tongue in cheek, sarcasm. This event has nothing to do with GOP vs Democrats. It's a man that perpetrated a horrific act against innocent people based on his fanatical beliefs. Note I say fanatical beliefs and not Islamic fanaticism or radical Islamist. Describing his "beliefs" using Islamic branding is entirely grandstanding by certain political and religious groups.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by Elysium This event has nothing to do with GOP vs Democrats. It's a man that perpetrated a horrific act against innocent people …

Ely, I skipped the rest of your quote because this is the bit that drives the point home. We have no idea what was really going on in the man's head, other than he was a sick shit-head!

If we truly want to see a just response, we must label him for what he is: a murderer.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by Chinney Obama gave a great speech today on the issue. It is rare that I watch a whole speech by any politician, but I am glad that I watched that one.

It's unfortunate that the majority of americans will not see the speech or even hear/read an accurate representation of it.

I just happened to be watching the the news at the time he cut in and watched the whole thing. It was an outstanding speech, that laid the groundwork upfront for his major blows (against the GOP and Trump) later on. When watched in full, his tone, frustration, and snark is completely understandable and justified. Taken out of context? As I have seen every article do? It creates sensationalist news and sound bites to debate. Once he was done speaking I quickly switched over to Fox News and their talking heads just went into full attack mode without any sense of reason or fairness. It was pathetic to see.

[Dr. Bobsky]

Originally Posted by Ryan Please point to the hordes of GOP politicians calling for mass murder. That sort of equivalence is just silly.

You asked for hordes, I though texas GOP, and they delivered. While it is not mass murder, it is essentially an attempt to eliminate homosexuals all together as policy, so let's not split hairs here (the difference between wanting no homosexuals and wanting none that exist living is tiny): http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/08/us...p-gay-therapy/

He was inspired by Islamic fanaticism. Attempting to smear Republicans with the blood of this tragedy to score cheap political points is just morally depraved bullshit.

To not recognize that the hatred against his victims of choice has equivalent manifestations in the US (and you and I both know of famous murders of gay men for being nothing but gay, so don't pretend gay bias murder don't happen here) is shear idiocy by lunatics whose moral compass is screwed on backwards.

No the GOP get's no quarter here for providing political voice to anti-homosexual rhetoric. That I even have to argue this point is beyond ridiculous. You might think it is fine for any major party to voice hatred of any other group, but it is clearly anthithetical to the humanitarian principles foundational to our way of life. And the GOP has been voicing this hatred loudly, unabashedly for a long time.

[Dr. Bobsky]

Originally Posted by Dave He was a democrat.

And that doesn't change his homophobia or the fact that the GOP gives homophobic people cover for suggesting their views are acceptable and mainstream.

Yes this guy was likely a radicalized American Islamist. Yes he was as homophobic as they come. His attack reflected both of those aspects of who he was, both in target and in motivation. You cannot separate one from the other. To claim this was a jihadi action ignores the target (or if it doesn't ignore the target, it ignores the rampant homophobia that binds Islamists and the GOP together -- both because of extreme hate filled versions of Islam and Christianity find their political homes there), to claim it was simply anti-homosexual violence ignores the fact that he clearly was motivated by a belief in the anti-Islam depravity of the west was best reflected in this club (but what extreme Christian right winger wouldn't argue the same?) and he drew pyschological support from the idea that a better muslim world could arise from his action.

[Dr. Bobsky]

I read an excerpt of Obama's speech and it was profound and good, and reminded me that there are better things to discuss than the problems we face (which my last two posts focused on)...

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by Elysium Describing his "beliefs" using Islamic branding is entirely grandstanding by certain political and religious groups.

Not for anyone who's actually read the Koran.

Look, no-one wants to brand all the followers of one particular religion as potential terrorists. Everyone knows the majority of North-American muslims flatly ignore their religion's call for violence toward and subjugation of non-believers.

But Islam does have a problem here. Everyone's calling for a Islamic 'reformation' akin to Christianity's, but I don't see how that is possible. Christianity was reformed because it had gotten far away from the intents and precepts of its founder, who called for non-violence and love for friend and enemy alike.

The New Testament prescriptions for taking God's love to the unsaved, and turning the other cheek supersede the Old Testament way of dealing with sin, because Christ as the promised Messiah brought a better, more permanent way of ending the rule of sin and death in the Earth and in our lives. Which is precisely why Evangelical Christians have rejected homosexuality as incompatible with their faith for hundreds of years in North America, and despite easy access to weaponry have managed to never walk into a gay bar and assassinate dozens of people.

Islam can't be reformed without completely throwing out what Muhammed did and taught, which is never going to happen.

The 'peaceful version' of Islam is one in which the adherents ignore and ultimately reject the lifestyle and teachings of the religion's founder.
At which point one has to ask, why embrace a religion that you cannot really follow?

[turtle]

Originally Posted by Frank777 Not for anyone who's actually read the Koran. Look, no-one wants to brand all the followers of one particular religion as potential terrorists. Everyone knows the majority of North-American muslims flatly ignore their religion's call for violence toward and subjugation of non-believers. But Islam does have a problem here. Everyone's calling for a Islamic 'reformation' akin to Christianity's, but I don't see how that is possible. Christianity was reformed because it had gotten far away from the intents and precepts of its founder, who called for non-violence and love for friend and enemy alike. The New Testament prescriptions for taking God's love to the unsaved, and turning the other cheek supersede the Old Testament way of dealing with sin, because Christ as the promised Messiah brought a better, more permanent way of ending the rule of sin and death in the Earth and in our lives. Which is precisely why Evangelical Christians have rejected homosexuality as incompatible with their faith for hundreds of years in North America, and despite easy access to weaponry have managed to never walk into a gay bar and assassinate dozens of people. Islam can't be reformed without completely throwing out what Muhammed did and taught, which is never going to happen. The 'peaceful version' of Islam is one in which the adherents ignore and ultimately reject the lifestyle and teachings of the religion's founder. At which point one has to ask, why embrace a religion that you cannot really follow?

As much as I've been avoiding posting in here, this post is right on the money.