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Occupy X, the Tea Party, and the Danger of Revolution in America


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Occupy X, the Tea Party, and the Danger of Revolution in America
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drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2011-10-13, 09:28

Where X=the place being occupied

SHORT VERSION
The Tea Party and Occupy X movements have been inspired by citizens' unhappiness with government and business (particularly the finance industry). Are things so very bad that there is a real danger of revolution, or has a revolution already begun?



DETAILED VERSION (with links!)

I've seen some well-spoken Occupy Wall Street activists with well-framed arguments (LINK).

I've seen some frighteningly hysterical Monty Python-esque examples of groupthink at an Occupy Atlanta rally (LINK).

Today I was sent an interesting article called "CHARTS: Here's What The Wall Street Protesters Are So Angry About... (LINK)" on one of those generic news aggregation sites (which I normally view as three rungs down from a 'legitimate' media source) so take it for what it's worth... but it's an interesting read and the article (which features chart after chart) is pretty alarming....

....in fact, the subtext of the article is SO very alarming that if the provenance of the charts (cited from various sources) should prove legitimate, the prospect of class warfare in America is all too real and all too present a danger. Certainly, some amount of our financial woes are linked to the last time banks were under legislative directive to provide loans to the lower class - but this prolonged lack of engagement by the banking industry with the American public (as suggested by the charts in that article) is astonishing.


So.
What are we as a nation doing about it?
We have the Tea Party movement and the new Occupy X movement.


The Tea Party was the first widely recognized alarm that people were willing to stand up for change. This was a conservative leaning group whose most-resolved tenets called for "smaller government" - which means reduced spending by the government... in my opinion this is a generalized way of wishing for smarter spending by the government. To my most liberal of friends the Tea Party is a bunch of racist kooks who are unhappy with having a black President in office and are agitating to help foment against President Obama having a second term. To my moderate friends the Tea Party movement has some delicious kernels of corny truth embedded in a giant turd of populist blather. To my conservative friends the Tea Party is a new route for conservative ideals, never coming out to state that they've lost faith in the Republican party. For many conservatives my age the only alternative to this point has been the Libertarian party, which as any politico can tell you is a preposterously schizophrenic push-me-pull-you of a beast.

As someone born and bred to Capitalism that system naturally makes more sense to me, as a result I am no fan of Communism as a model for a large nation to pursue; yet I understand the need for a complex societal model which includes social programs for those who are unable to succeed under Capitalism whether by physical affliction or cultural debilitation.

For me, at first blush, the Occupy X movement smacked of a modern Communist movement with touches of Neal Stephenson's "mobbe"; anarchists looking for a few good cars to burn. And, as you'll see in the article I've linked to, the conflict is indeed very much about labor versus capital. But now that I have a clearer idea about the shape of wealth and spending and "fairness" (a most whiny of terms that I associated with the Occupy X movement). But if politicians can rise to the top of the Occupy X movement (they're busting their asses to do that right now) and if the movement successfully avoids the Marxist overtones of the farcical Atlanta rally (linked above, I swear I had nothing to do with that) you might see a "new" liberal party emerge that sheds some of the ossification of the old Democrat party.

The fear I have with the rise of Occupy X and the Tea Party is that these could be two perfectly matched, perfectly polarized beasts with armies of people who have been "activated"... people who are willing to physically participate and are unable to consider negotiation with their dissenting opposites. It would be dangerous if these movements have none of the reason or flexibility or cordiality that the Republican and Democrat parties can still (occasionally) manage to pull off, even in their state of extreme polarization.

How does a Leader get ahead of and productively channel the energies of an army (or two) of unemployed and disaffected civilians?

And who's going to do it first?



...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
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ezkcdude
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Join Date: Jan 2005
 
2011-10-13, 09:47

I'm glad that the Tea Party finally has some competition. It was bound to happen eventually. Every pole needs an opposite pole (well, not really, but it makes a better analogy), and maybe this new progressive populist movement (as opposed to the Tea Party's conservative brand of populism) will restore some balance to the debate in Washington. I hope so, anyway. The problem with Democrats (and I say this as a proud member of) is we generally have no backbone. That's kind of the nature of being progressive, willing to consider alternatives, and roll with the punches. But that lack of backbone is also a major weakness, and when one side of the aisle basically aims to sabotage government (indeed, the very existence of government seems to be in question according to the Tea Party faithful), it's difficult to fight back because the very tool we Democrats prefer to use (government) is actually being used against us. The Democrats need to stand up, and maybe this Occupy X or 99%-ers or whatever make us realize that once again.
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billybobsky
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Join Date: May 2004
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2011-10-13, 10:32

I think the movements will merge appreciably: the concern on both sides is undue influence of government action by external agents especially corporations. Crony capitalism isn't a term run out from the 99%, it's from the Tea Party. That's an important realization. Now of course, the fix to some of this problem is increased regulation on corporate lobbying -- but the corporate lobbyist funding the current form of the Tea Party will certainly not like that.
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ezkcdude
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2011-10-13, 10:52

Quote:
the concern on both sides is undue influence of government action by external agents especially corporations.
That might have been the original concern, but the Tea Party was quickly co-opted by the Koch brothers and other corporate influences that saw a way to use the Tea Party to reduce the influence of government, itself, not the influence of corporations on the government. In fact, the Tea Party shows just how much influence corporations have on our government. They're all in the pockets of big business. It's only a matter of time before Democrats co-opt the 99%ers as a means to increase the size of government and weaken big business.

Don't people get it by now? It's government vs. business. Period. It's never about us.
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Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2011-10-13, 11:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezkcdude View Post
Don't people get it by now? It's government vs. business. Period. It's never about us.
What a beautiful and simple imagery.

Too bad it's wrong.

The grim reality is that business and government has been in bed for very long time. Doubt it? Count how many bailouts we've had in recent pasts and that was amid the chatter of "down with greedy fat cats!". Look at how regulatory agency works to help crappy companies stay in power by keeping out newcomers.

And it's not also "never about us" - there's lot of special interest groups who want in the federal feeding trough. Of course they want more benefits, lower taxes and handouts when they're down on hard luck and hey, some more money during the good times helps, too! Who'd be against freebies?!?

The great lie is this: the idea that government is miraculously capable of providing for our infinite wants from nothing. It's not. It's stealing from people and giving it back to others. A schizophrenic & drunk Robin Hood if you will.
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Majost
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lost
 
2011-10-13, 11:34

Exactly Banana. I really think that the best statement the "occupiers" can make is: We demand the separation of corporation and state.
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ezkcdude
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2011-10-13, 11:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana View Post

The great lie is this: the idea that government is miraculously capable of providing for our infinite wants from nothing. It's not. It's stealing from people and giving it back to others. A schizophrenic & drunk Robin Hood if you will.
Sounds like the great Straw Man to me.
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2011-10-13, 14:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana View Post
What a beautiful and simple imagery.

Too bad it's wrong.

The grim reality is that business and government has been in bed for very long time. Doubt it? Count how many bailouts we've had in recent pasts and that was amid the chatter of "down with greedy fat cats!". Look at how regulatory agency works to help crappy companies stay in power by keeping out newcomers.
I always bring this argument up when people tell me we had some kind of pure free market the past couple years. Crony capitalism/state directed capitalism/fascism...whatever you want to call it has been going on for almost a hundred years in this country. A recent example is the three "free trade" agreements that passed overwhelmingly yesterday and will become law today. Who helped write them? There is no reason a free trade agreement needs to be the size of several phonebooks. And if you oppose it you are denounced as advocating protectionism.

OWS hasn't really said what they are for yet, though I have heard some student loan whiners being interviewed, but I hope they stay decentralized and resist being co opted. I have noticed the unions hanging around though which isn't a good sign. Teamsters thug Jimmy Hoffa Jr. was down there the other day being interviewed. He had nothing to say though I was surprised that he took aim at Apple. I've never heard them singled out before but when you are sitting on $80 billion in cash you are an easy target!
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Moogs
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Join Date: May 2004
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2011-10-13, 15:44

Regarding Banana and ezk's back-and-forth, unless you love splitting hairs, it's almost impossible to look at the federal political process today and the policy process and not conclude that for the most part, government IS business. I will hold back all the obvious points that bare this out so I can respond to Drew's initial points but it's nuts to try and untangle the two parties. They are effectively one group wearing different hats.

Drew:
1) Thanks for starting the thread.

2) Your ATL protest videos... I don't know. I don't see anything particularly ... uh... what's the word... emulation-worthy (?) of that group. Is this Heaven's Gate or a well-informed political protest? I cringed for the Congressman. I was thinking "God damn, here's this elected rep who is trying to do the right thing and he's supporting these people and they've gone all hippie-group-speak on him." I doubt if he'll show up again but more importantly I doubt if anyone of gravitas (besides actors and musicians maybe) are going to show up and support these people (in any big city). Here Mayor Emanuel talks as if it's only happening in NY. Not encouraging. You don't want to be seen supporting a group that can't engage you in a normal conversation or which (unfairly or not) gives the impression of being "out there".

I guess it is proof of the 99%, which you would expect to have all kinds milling around doing their thing, including odd-balls.

I get that they mean well and that they have some worthy grievances, and I hope they and a hundred other occupy movements like them grow and evolve and get better at what they're doing. Practice makes perfect right? But they are the living embodiment of what is wrong with this movement in a broader sense. It is going to be nearly impossible for anyone in a decision-making capacity to look at a group like that and take them seriously.

Right or wrong, sad or not, image matters in this game. It matters a lot.

3) I think your link to the graphs on the business site is EXCELLENT. I also suspect 70% of the protestors out there, can't speak to anything specifically in that article if someone sticks a camera in their face. Not beyond "I don't have a job and the CEOs are abusing their power." That also is a major problem. Actually saying that would be better than what some of these people do, which is get nervous and start rambling on about all sorts of shit. That's actually the worst possible response. If you can't expound legitimately, keep it simple, folks. KISF.

The article talks about "protestor anger". Does anyone see anger in that creepily chanting crowd?? Or in New York or Chicago? I don't see much real anger and if I'm an executive at a banking firm they scare me not even slightly. I am laughing and taking bets on how long before they go home. And in Chicago the other day some asshole at the Merc actually hung a banner out the window that said "We are the 1%". That shows you how scared the problem-makers are.

Look at the typical Arab Spring protest in Egypt and look at the bigger movements here. The differences (gunfire aside) are striking. The energy level the passion, and the quality of message are completely different IMHO. When I am on the wrong side of a community dispute or problem, and I see hundreds or thousands of people in a small space doing this...

...I start to pay attention. I know those people (while they may not have guns in their hands) are angry, are energized, and are not going anywhere anytime soon until something changes. I also know if I try to shut them down, bad shit is going to happen. Currently the Occupy movement has shown very little or none of this. When I see people sitting on a park green chanting or waving hands, or in a square quietly walking around with signs and chanting modestly... it's just not going to work that way, bro.

This is not the 60s. THis is not we shall overcome violence with peace. If they treat it like it is, there is no hope of change IMO. Change won't come until the people on the other side are afraid. Fear motivates the ill-motivated to change their ways many times. Reason isn't going to motivate them, calm isn't going to motivate them, catchy slogans aren't going to motivate them.

THAT SAID
I have to say... I am genuinely so proud of these people. Even the dorky college kids walking around as zombies, who wouldn't know a good policy idea if one dropped in their lap. I am often a cynical, pessimistic-when-it-comes-to-America kind of guy (I can be honest about myself...) but when I see stuff like what I've seen the last two weeks it gives me hope. Hope there is less apathy of the issues than I suspected (even if there is a striking amount of ignorance - if people's explanations are any gauge). It also gives me hope that some of our ideals of freedom and speech and protest are alive (if not well, at least still hanging in there).

But the Big Message™ needs to happen. There needs to be some centralization of leadership, some meeting of the minds on overriding demands and message points, and on the specific targets of their actions. WHO do they want to step up and do WHAT before they put down their signs and go home? I don't think the vast majority of people out there can answer that question. As a movement it kind of reminds me of Frank the Tank when he decides to go streaking and just goes for it without seeing if anyone is joining him or likes the idea. He just goes for it. And all these people just went for it.

I even tried to start a blog with a couple people I know who care about the movement but they chickened out on that. Not corporate types either; artists. Go figure. I figure maybe a few like minded people can get together and put together some real talking points and tweet it up and get it out there. Help get people on the same page and talking intelligently on the issues.

...into the light of a dark black night.

Last edited by Moogs : 2011-10-13 at 15:54.
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Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2011-10-13, 16:04

Why (in its current form) OWS is pathetic:



No one is going to take that seriously.
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Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
 
2011-10-13, 16:30

Those people are not pathetic; they're brave (unless they're just college kids skipping a class they don't like ).

Would you have the balls to stand out there with 5 other people and protest in a public square? I can answer that question right now: I wouldn't unless it was something egregious (family member wrongly locked up or company dumping toxins in water supply in my area or something like that).

The problem is simply one of organization and planning. THAT part is pathetic in this particular case. Is that San Antonio or something?

...into the light of a dark black night.
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Ryan
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2011-10-13, 16:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
Those people are not pathetic; they're brave (unless they're just college kids skipping a class they don't like ).

Would you have the balls to stand out there with 5 other people and protest in a public square? I can answer that question right now: I wouldn't unless it was something egregious (family member wrongly locked up or company dumping toxins in water supply in my area or something like that).

The problem is simply one of organization and planning. THAT part is pathetic in this particular case. Is that San Antonio or something?
I was talking about the guy on the right with the face paint and ”Jesus Rode Dinosaurs” sign. That’s not brave, it’s internet trolling.

And yes, that’s the Alamo. Photo from a local paper.

edit: Okay, I should clarify. This guy is the OWS equivalent of ”Keep Government out of my Medicare.” Nonsensical claims that become the image of the movement.
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addabox
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: oaktown
 
2011-10-13, 17:05

Oh, I dunno, any mass protest movement with a fair number of young people is going to have its share of silliness. Just look at the Viet Nam protests-- the crowds were full of goofy Yippies doing "street theater" and the like.

For someone in their late teens or early twenties there's a sense that part of the problem is the solemnity of the "adult world"-- that these fucked up old bastards that have made such a complete botch of the world thrive on a completely unearned sense of dignity and respect, and the idea of their own importance. It's only natural that one response to that is going to be "fuck all ya'll and your fake gravitas, here's a pig head and a monkey."

That which doesn't kill you weakens you slightly and makes you less able to cope until you're completely incapacitated
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2011-10-13, 17:35

Eh. I'll go to any rally pretty much. If you can get their lingo down pat it's a great place to score.


So it goes.
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Wrao
Yarp
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
 
2011-10-13, 17:51

You can tick for tack tea party vs. occupy all day long, both movements certainly had and have more than their fair share of imbeciles(like the jesus rode dinosaurs kid). One noteworthy difference, I think, between the two situations is that the Occupiers(I think they call themselves "the 99%") seem much more likely to outright make fun of themselves. Intentionally or otherwise.

Some of my most vocal Facebook friends who have been trying to publicize and provide coverage and links about the Occupy movement have also been posting links to things like occupy sesame street or occupy jump street or whatever. I don't remember ever seeing the tea party having that same type of self mockery present.
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FFL
Fishhead Family Reunited
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Slightly Off Center
 
2011-10-13, 19:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybobsky View Post
Now of course, the fix to some of this problem is increased regulation on corporate lobbying -- but the corporate lobbyist funding the current form of the Tea Party will certainly not like that.
Yes.

We've got a self-perpetuating system where we put one party in power, and then get fed up and put the other party in power. And both parties use the same corporate money to stay in power, and the illusion that they are very different to keep us divided and distracted from the fact that they really are not.

We need major campaign finance reform, and major lobbying reform. And it's never going to happen as long as we keep electing the same corporate-funded politicians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majost View Post
I really think that the best statement the "occupiers" can make is: We demand the separation of corporation and state.
Yes.

This is a very good distillation of the root problem into one simple statement. It is the one "demand" that literally everyone in the 99% can agree on, and is at the root of most other demands being tossed around.

We need major campaign finance reform, and major lobbying reform. And it's never going to happen as long as we keep electing the same corporate-funded politicians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
Regarding Banana and ezk's back-and-forth, unless you love splitting hairs, it's almost impossible to look at the federal political process today and the policy process and not conclude that for the most part, government IS business. I will hold back all the obvious points that bare this out so I can respond to Drew's initial points but it's nuts to try and untangle the two parties. They are effectively one group wearing different hats.
Exactly.

Lots more of this post to quote - good one Moogs!

Quote:
2) Your ATL protest videos... I don't know. I don't see anything particularly ... uh... what's the word... emulation-worthy (?) of that group. Is this Heaven's Gate or a well-informed political protest? I cringed for the Congressman. I was thinking "God damn, here's this elected rep who is trying to do the right thing and he's supporting these people and they've gone all hippie-group-speak on him." I doubt if he'll show up again but more importantly I doubt if anyone of gravitas (besides actors and musicians maybe) are going to show up and support these people (in any big city). Here Mayor Emanuel talks as if it's only happening in NY. Not encouraging. You don't want to be seen supporting a group that can't engage you in a normal conversation or which (unfairly or not) gives the impression of being "out there".

I guess it is proof of the 99%, which you would expect to have all kinds milling around doing their thing, including odd-balls.

Right or wrong, sad or not, image matters in this game. It matters a lot.
Good points here. Addabox did a good job explaining why the oddballs are inevitable, but they still present a challenge to the effectiveness of the protests.

But - the biggest problem with a spokesperson with "gravitas", is - someone with gravitas is, by definition, part of the 1% and not the 99%.

Quote:
3) I think your link to the graphs on the business site is EXCELLENT. I also suspect 70% of the protestors out there, can't speak to anything specifically in that article if someone sticks a camera in their face. Not beyond "I don't have a job and the CEOs are abusing their power." That also is a major problem.

The article talks about "protestor anger". Does anyone see anger in that creepily chanting crowd??

Look at the typical Arab Spring protest in Egypt and look at the bigger movements here. The differences (gunfire aside) are striking. The energy level the passion, and the quality of message are completely different IMHO. When I am on the wrong side of a community dispute or problem, and I see hundreds or thousands of people in a small space doing this...
...I start to pay attention.

This is not the 60s. THis is not we shall overcome violence with peace. If they treat it like it is, there is no hope of change IMO. Change won't come until the people on the other side are afraid. Fear motivates the ill-motivated to change their ways many times. Reason isn't going to motivate them, calm isn't going to motivate them, catchy slogans aren't going to motivate them.
I see your point - but this is an apples-oranges comparison. The Arab Spring protestors were getting beaten, arrested/tortured, and even shot - just for protesting.

And I don't think getting more chaotic will be productive at all. It will only make it easier for their critics to marginalize them.

The OWS movement needs a good-looking, very well-spoken, inspiring, spokesperson who has such a burning desire to changetheworld that it infects those around him/her. A 20-or-30-something who is undeniably a member of the 99%.

In short - it needs the socio-political version of a Young Steve Jobs.


Quote:
THAT SAID
I have to say... I am genuinely so proud of these people. Even the dorky college kids walking around as zombies, who wouldn't know a good policy idea if one dropped in their lap. I am often a cynical, pessimistic-when-it-comes-to-America kind of guy (I can be honest about myself...) but when I see stuff like what I've seen the last two weeks it gives me hope. Hope there is less apathy of the issues than I suspected (even if there is a striking amount of ignorance - if people's explanations are any gauge). It also gives me hope that some of our ideals of freedom and speech and protest are alive (if not well, at least still hanging in there).

But the Big Message™ needs to happen. There needs to be some centralization of leadership, some meeting of the minds on overriding demands and message points, and on the specific targets of their actions. WHO do they want to step up and do WHAT before they put down their signs and go home? I don't think the vast majority of people out there can answer that question.
I agree that a unified message and goals would do wonders for the effectiveness. But the most important message to the protestors and those who support them should be what to do after they put down their signs and go home.

1. If you're not registered to vote, then REGISTER. Democrat, Republican, or Independent - if you're not registered, do so IMMEDIATELY.
2. Stay in touch with other OWS protestors in your area.
3. Identify incumbents and candidates running for local, state, and national office, and make sure they know that YOUR vote will depend on THEIR position on "the separation of corporation and state".
4. Encourage your fellow OWS protestors do the same.
5. Make sure everyone you know in the 99% is encouraged to do the same.
6. Last, but not least - VOTE at election time. Be sure to encourage everyone you know to do the same.

Quote:
I even tried to start a blog with a couple people I know who care about the movement but they chickened out on that. Not corporate types either; artists. Go figure. I figure maybe a few like minded people can get together and put together some real talking points and tweet it up and get it out there. Help get people on the same page and talking intelligently on the issues.
Excellent! Don't be discouraged by your friends' apathy - put them on the spot!
"Well - if you're too... uncommitted to pitch in, can you put me in touch with someone in the movement who isn't a chicken-shit?"
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FFL
Fishhead Family Reunited
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Slightly Off Center
 
2011-10-13, 19:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
You can tick for tack tea party vs. occupy all day long, both movements certainly had and have more than their fair share of imbeciles(like the jesus rode dinosaurs kid). One noteworthy difference, I think, between the two situations is that the Occupiers(I think they call themselves "the 99%") seem much more likely to outright make fun of themselves. Intentionally or otherwise.

Some of my most vocal Facebook friends who have been trying to publicize and provide coverage and links about the Occupy movement have also been posting links to things like occupy sesame street or occupy jump street or whatever. I don't remember ever seeing the tea party having that same type of self mockery present.
This is what is so scary about the Occupiers for those in power - their youth! They're going to be around for a whole lot longer than the Tea Partiers.
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Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
 
2011-10-13, 21:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
I was talking about the guy on the right with the face paint and ”Jesus Rode Dinosaurs” sign. That’s not brave, it’s internet trolling.
Oh, ok. I thought you just meant the fact it was a handful of people standing around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post
Oh, I dunno, any mass protest movement with a fair number of young people is going to have its share of silliness. Just look at the Viet Nam protests-- the crowds were full of goofy Yippies doing "street theater" and the like.
This is true unfortunately, and more less something that is uniquely American. The problem is, the TV media idiots will always gravitate towards the protesters making the biggest fools of themselves. Because of course, that's what the producer of the news show wants (because that's what his boss wants). And his boss' boss' boss. You know, GE, Disney, etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by FFL View Post
But - the biggest problem with a spokesperson with "gravitas", is - someone with gravitas is, by definition, part of the 1% and not the 99%.

Maybe... but a person of gravitas could just = more congressmen (who aren't necessarily rich and if they're first term, not necessarily beyond hope).


Quote:
I see your point - but this is an apples-oranges comparison. The Arab Spring protestors were getting beaten, arrested/tortured, and even shot
Ah, but it's really not. Even before those people were getting beaten and whatnot, they were not sitting around peacefully on a grassy hill, strumming guitars or holding cardboard signs quietly. They were fucking angry, side-by-side and in people's faces. Sorry but it needs to happen IMO. And I think a great many of the protestors out there will draw the line precisely at "in their face". Because it's uncomfortable. We as a society have become so freakin touch-feely about emotions and expressing ourselves delicately that we no longer see the value in "respectfully getting angry and in someone's face". People now, because of all these reality shows maybe, equate in your face with hatred.

When did that happen exactly? Sometimes we get in the face of the people we care about most to wake them up or call them out on something. Doesn't mean we hate them... so something (psychologically) is going to have to change about this dynamic. If I keep seeing videos of cops taking pot-shots at protestors with billy clubs, that change might not take long. See your brother or friend's skull get cracked, the next day you might have a whole new perspective on the value of "in their face".

Quote:
And I don't think getting more chaotic will be productive at all. It will only make it easier for their critics to marginalize them.
Too late; the media is already ignoring them / not taking them seriously (at least the TV media isn't). I get what you're saying but if this is the long-haul protest meant ultimately to gather thousands of people in these cities, they can't think like that. They can't think about someone saying bad stuff about them because they're hostile in some cases. That's where the message comes in. If the message is strong and logical, they can't be marginalized.


Quote:
The OWS movement needs a good-looking, very well-spoken, inspiring, spokesperson who has such a burning desire to changetheworld that it infects those around him/her. A 20-or-30-something who is undeniably a member of the 99%.

In short - it needs the socio-political version of a Young Steve Jobs.
He's 1% but wouldn't it be hilarious if George Clooney threw himself into this? I think he's the only man in Hollywood anyone would take seriously.

Quote:
1. If you're not registered to vote, then REGISTER. Democrat, Republican, or Independent - if you're not registered, do so IMMEDIATELY.
2. Stay in touch with other OWS protestors in your area.
3. Identify incumbents and candidates running for local, state, and national office, and make sure they know that YOUR vote will depend on THEIR position on "the separation of corporation and state".
4. Encourage your fellow OWS protestors do the same.
5. Make sure everyone you know in the 99% is encouraged to do the same.
6. Last, but not least - VOTE at election time. Be sure to encourage everyone you know to do the same.
Until we change the money train and the term limits and all that crap, won't matter. Everyone on the ballot will be the same types who got us into this mess. It all starts on day one of every campaign. The problem is the money that the 99% don't have to "outbid" the scumbag lobbyists and their bosses for the allegiance of our "public servants". What a fucking laugh that term is. I'm trying to remember the last time I saw a real "public servant" on a ballot. There's one in my parents' neighborhood during congressional elections. One of the few people I've seen endorsed by every kind of paper and party. Otherwise? Whores.

...into the light of a dark black night.
  quote
JohnnyTheA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2011-10-13, 22:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezkcdude View Post
That might have been the original concern, but the Tea Party was quickly co-opted by the Koch brothers and other corporate influences that saw a way to...
Well these occupy people have their supporters also (think Soros)

Quote:
Don't people get it by now? It's government vs. business. Period. It's never about us.
Are you kidding? Every since credit Mobilier government has been in bed with business.

The BIG difference I see between the Tea Party and the Occupy folks is where their protests are targeted at. The Tea Party protests the actions of the government. That is pretty straight-forward to me. While I think these folks are a little Cooky, protesting what the government does makes sense. I mean they are supposed to represent "the people" so if "the people" have problems with they way they do that, it makes sense to complain about the government.

The Occupy weirdos are protesting business and rich people. Okay, companies are supposed to represent their share-holders PERIOD. That is the way the corporate system is set up. Apple doesn't hold an election and let the public decide how much an iPhone will cost. They hold an election of the share-holders and they decide how things are run.

Now, if you think government is giving too much of a free ride to corporations, then the target of protest should be the government NOT the corporations. They have a fiduciary responsibility to earn as much profit as they can. In-theory, they could be sued by their share-holders if they do otherwise. Go ahead and protest but protest the GOVERNMENT for letting corporations get away with so much.

Ahhh.. But there is one reason they the Occupy-folks won't do that. It is because the current government is mostly controlled by the party they favor (Big D's). It all gets back to crazy partisan politics.

JTA
  quote
!Marc!
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2011-10-15, 11:24

Im with moogs.

All this silly hippy peaceful sign waving slogan Jesus shit wont do a damn thing.

Infact its what the 1% want you to do while they laugh at you, because they know that the protesters are only playing mind games with themselves and losing.

The choice is whether we want to be fed the rotten scraps for the rest of our lives and be damn thankful for it while we wave silly slogans on boards to make ourselves feel better. Or start a revolution.

People with money dont get off on having the money, they get off on making people behave like scavenging thankful dogs.

Rev-o-fucking-lution.
  quote
drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2011-10-15, 16:12

Dang. I was rather hoping it wouldn't be revolution.


...
  quote
FFL
Fishhead Family Reunited
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Slightly Off Center
 
2011-10-15, 17:31

I just ran across an unusually good opinion piece on CNN.com.

What will victory look like for Occupy Wall Street?


My favorite parts - highlighting the best:

Quote:
Americans had become shockingly complacent in the face of outrageous inequality and injustice, seeming to defend the special rights of yacht-owning "job creators" while swallowing the notion that millions of our fellow citizens can be both working and poor. One poster at Occupy Wall Street read, "The light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off." That we're now having a public debate about inequality and the ugly road to nowhere on which many hardworking Americans are traveling suggests that, whatever Occupy's ultimate agenda, the process of movement building -- the fact of its existence -- may be its essential point.

Social movements spring up not to achieve narrow policy goals but to shift the broader public debate, mobilizing public will toward change. Polls show this movement's message against corporate greed not only has wider support than either political party in Washington but wider support than the tea party.
"Occupy" protests are springing up in unlikely places, from Idaho to Indiana, and drawing unlikely protesters like soccer moms, small-business owners and, yes, tea party members. That you're even reading this column is evidence the protests are making a mark.

Even if the 99% movement -- as it's coming to be known in some quarters -- fizzles in the coming months, historically it may be the spark that lights another flame that ultimately leads to change. Just as interest on a bank account multiplies and compounds over time, so does outrage and resistance.

Like any good story, the 99% movement is bound to have a cliffhanger, though it's too soon to predict when or what it will be. But expect it to come in the form of a significant demand that, if achieved, would dramatically transform our politics and economy for the better.

Based on my conversations with participants at Occupy Wall Street, my sense is that the ultimate demand could be a radical reform to get money out of politics. This might be a call for public financing of elections, new restrictions on lobbying contributions. There might even be a constitutional amendment saying the law should not treat corporations as people, effectively overturning the Supreme Court's Citizens' United ruling that allowing corporations and wealthy donors to spend more freely on campaigns.

Incidentally, the American people widely support such campaign finance restrictions, but both Democrats and Republicans are chronically unwilling to forsake cash cow corporations and embrace reform. Creating huge public pressure to get corrupting money out of politics would be quite a happy ending for the protesters -- and our democracy.
  quote
drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2011-10-15, 18:49

Well now THAT is a revolution I could support!!!
  quote
FFL
Fishhead Family Reunited
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Slightly Off Center
 
2011-10-15, 23:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
Well now THAT is a revolution I could support!!!
It's a foolproof 4-point plan....

1. Protest and Occupy
2. Demand Political Reform
3. ???
4. Success!



  quote
JohnnyTheA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2011-10-15, 23:44

Regarding:
Quote:
Based on my conversations with participants at Occupy Wall Street, my sense is that the ultimate demand could be a radical reform to get money out of politics...
I really like the idea. But there is a really really big stumbling block to doing that. A little detail called the First Amendment. If I am richer than you, and I want to run ads all over the place (otherwise known as speaking), I have that right. You really can't limit me. You can go and raise YOUR money and run ads (which is what the unions and Soros-folk do). But if there is a huge cabal of rich folk, there isn't much you can do to stop them from "speaking". And really, there shouldn't really be if you think about it. The minute you start carving up the first amendment, where will it stop?

Other than amending the constitution there is little you can really do except "maybe" have state-funded elections. That way it might level the playing field. Even then, there would be a stigma applied. Also, if you look at the ONE example of state funded elections we DO have (that presidential fund), most candidates waive this because the big corporate interests can generate so much more money.

Like it or not, Obama will probably be the most bought-off corporate candidate in the history of elections. My only issue with the Occupy folk, is they are blind to this "because behind the scenes" the old guard of the far-left wing is supporting/organizing them. And THAT is truly discrediting and sad. This really is starting to look like Germany in the 20s... Masses of pissed off people who are controlled behind the scenes by people who really have a huge lust for power.

Oh, and one other thing. That park they are in is F-ing private property. If the owner of that private property wants those people out, then they should get the H*** out.
Again, take the protest to DC where it belongs...

JTA
  quote
billybobsky
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
 
2011-10-16, 00:04

Uh... It's a private park created to receive certain leeway with respect to construction aspects of the building it was originally associated with. It is also required to stay open 24/7 by the law it was created under, so no, the private owner has no say.
  quote
drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2011-10-16, 05:28

Woke up early, watching the news, and the "revolution" of Occupy X has jumped national borders. Unfortunately, it has turned violent in some locations, like London and Rome. Will these protests resolve focus as they grow?


...
  quote
!Marc!
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2011-10-16, 06:17

Why is unfortunate?

Was it unfortunate when the Egyptians, Syrians and Libyans rose up against their corrupt leaders and perverted system?
Why should it be any different in Europe and America?
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2011-10-16, 06:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by !Marc! View Post
Why is unfortunate?

Was it unfortunate when the Egyptians, Syrians and Libyans rose up against their corrupt leaders and perverted system?
Why should it be any different in Europe and America?
That depends. It's a bit early to tell what those protests accomplished. For instance, Egypt is now under military rule. Apparently, an election is planned for November.
  quote
!Marc!
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2011-10-16, 06:35

Maybe it will take a few attemps. At least the Egyptians know that if they are getting fucked over by their military, they can rise up and throw the fuckers out.
We seem to be totally passive into accepting the worst crap on the table, and then telling ourselves were doing great!
  quote
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