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Is Leopard worth it?


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Is Leopard worth it?
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travisc77
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2007-10-30, 14:29

I'm sure there a significant amount of very satisfied owners of Leopard, but for $129 this product seems like evolutionary upgrade to a an already solid OS (Tiger). Does anybody else feel this way? Apple always touts 200-300 new features, but really, this list should be much shorter. Hell, if you use that logic, Apple releases new features with each update (even MS does with SP's).

Somethings missing as it doesn't seem like a significant release. I obviously love the Finder updates, especially the reliability and look/feel. But beyond the network reliability, spotlight and the under the hood updates, everything else seems flashy without real substance. I think Time Machine could have been better with the wireless thing left in, as it is now it seems run of the mill backup software with an awkward interface. Spaces, as in workspaces for those UNIX users, is a nice addition for the power users. Don't get me wrong installed without an issue and runs great and feels more stable. Even a little flashier, but not that different from Tiger. Although the transparent menu bar and 3d look of the dock make it seem like I'm running a third party GUI.

Am I the only one who feels this way?
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PB PM
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2007-10-30, 14:33

I don't feel ripped off if that is what you mean. I find many of the under the hood updates make my system run smoother. I'm no power user, and I find spaces very useful, even when taking notes in class and switching programs for various needs. You may be right about Timemachine in some regards. I think 10.5 worth it, because GUI changes aside, I find my system faster, which helps me to be more efficient. I remember a lot of people have the same discussions when 10.4 came out so frankly I just don't buy the entire, oh nothing worth while has changed story.
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travisc77
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2007-10-30, 14:38

I hear you, I don't really feel ripped off either. Although, a part of me feels like there could have been more to it after 2+years and the delay. The speed/stability will seem more noticeable after more use, but Tiger was pretty stable.
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bassplayinMacFiend
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2007-10-30, 14:49

Depends on what part of the OS package you use. If you do any development at all, then the developer suite is easily worth more than the $129 between the Xcode / Interface Builder updates and the update to Objective-C 2.0. Other additions like Core Animation won't show their usefulness until programs utilizing this API are released for public consumption.

I feel the most work has been done under the hood. Look at the craziness in the different Windows versions. The iPhone still isn't supported on 64 bit Windows months after release. Leopard supports 32 & 64 bit PPC as well as 32/64 bit Intel apps, all in one box. I'm sure this wasn't an easy accomplishment.

So on the surface, it seems like the GUI has been tweaked as noted and Time Machine was added. I'm not sure what else at the surface level has been added.

It seems all the work was done to make it easier for programmers to build more complex programs easily by including the functionality with the OS vs. sample code on the ADC website. Since Apple has taken on the task of building APIs like Core Audio/Video/Image/Animation, programmers can get back to building the meat of their application and not worrying about building a JPEG importer / exporter for example.
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Jerman
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2007-10-30, 15:11

I was very impressed with Ars Technica's review of the OS. It details a ton of the under the hood changes, as well as how Time Machine works, using a new technology called FSevents. I used to think I would not use Time Machine, but have been very impressed with how it was built, so I have decided to use it after all. I must say that Time Machine alone makes Leopard worth it for me. And then add in the under-the-hood changes, I am incredibly impressed. Sure there are a few bugs, but once those are squashed, It'll be even better.
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Mugge
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2007-10-30, 16:45

Gotta love how Ars takes the technical stuff head on and explain it in a manner even I can understand.

I'm sure reading their rewiev will be just what the doctor ordered for you, travisc77.


Last edited by Mugge : 2007-10-30 at 17:46.
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Sargasm
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2007-10-30, 17:06

I'm a student, so I got it for $70 at my campus bookstore. Even if I had paid 130 for it, I wouldn't feel ripped off. It definitely doesn't feel like a completely revolutionary OS from the get-go, but all the little things (like the ability to add multiple folders to your Background choices) add up to make it one really awesome experience.

Plus, Spaces is fucking incredible, I don't know how I ever lived without it. All my browsing/chatting in one space, iTunes expanded fully and given it's own space, all essay writing in another, and still another for keeping track of torrenting/downloading/system maintenance and other miscellaneous things.
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Taskiss
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2007-10-30, 17:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerman View Post
I was very impressed with Ars Technica's review of the OS.
Thanks for that link. It was a very enjoyable read.
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torifile
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2007-10-30, 17:48

Spotlight is usable. The Finder is finally solid. Networking seems robust. I couldn't have asked for more. The bugs will be ironed out and I'll get used to the odd interface changes. I'm very happy thus far.
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thegeriatric
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2007-10-30, 18:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugge View Post
Gotta love how Ars takes the technical stuff head on and explain it in a manner even I can understand.

I'm sure reading their review will be just what the doctor ordered for you, travisc77.

After reading their review i am suitably impressed and will be ordering my copy soon.
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sirnick4
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2007-10-30, 18:36

Spaces.

'nuff said.
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wackymacky
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2007-10-30, 18:57

It's worth every penny of the 10 bucks I spent for the Up-to-date.
I'm not yet convinced of a great advance from OS 10.4
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TimeandSpace
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2007-10-30, 20:46

Spaces and it's more efficient are alone worth it.
I did think that Leopard will have a cover flow UI to it (black UI) called: "Illuminous".
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macuser256
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2007-10-30, 20:53

Seriously Spaces really has completely altered how I do work on my computer. It's been 3 days and i'm flying around my spaces constantly. It really is by far THE most incredible feature so far.

Plus I agree with many above posters who say that a vast majority of Leopards best improvements are under the hood and won't be manifested until developers start releasing applications built with the new Leopard dev tools.
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scratt
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2007-10-30, 21:36

I am really torn here...

I run a pretty tight ship in terms of HD space, and Leopard has come along and just mushroomed into all the available space I have on the System partition of all of my machines! I am having to do stuff I have never wanted, nor needed, to do before, such as run monolingual on some of my older machines that I simply don't want to have to totally re-partition and so on. I see now why Apple tends to not push partitioning!

In that sense Leopard has pissed me off a bit.

There are also quite a few small bugs with the way things are drawn, and still a whole bunch in Finder. The new grid spacing thing can cause all kinds of confusion. And the 'cover flow'-esque look to finder just makes me think yet again that SJ is back on Acid. Seriously, it's lovely eye candy, but it is eye candy for the sake of it.

But XCode alone is worth the update to me, and the Screen Sharing is unbelievably good. All my machines have multiple monitors, and it deals with that just fine too. I was shocked.

Mail seems snappier, even on my old PB G4 which currently only has 2GB of space on the System drive. In Tiger that machine would be dead in the water if I tried to boot it up in that state!

I don't like the style of the dock either way around, but do like the new way you can click on folders and have all the contents appear in either the fan, or the box thingy.

I miss a lot of the haxies I use as I like to know what the CPU is doing and so on, but they'll be back in time.

And, as has been said a lot, under the hood the system has had a major make over.. In some ways this sounds almost reminiscent of the justification that chucker used for Vista. But somehow I think Apple (apart from missing the boat on a new file system) have really stuffed a really souped up engine into a lot of my old jalopies.

Boot time is slower, on all my machines, but then I am stubbornly sticking with a pretty small System partition on most machines.

Overall it's definitely worth it, but I wish Apple could explain why an OS needs close to 20GB of disk space!

'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take'
Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt

Last edited by scratt : 2007-10-30 at 21:49.
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turbulentfurball
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2007-10-30, 21:41

omg it's so owrth it!!!!! i send liek amube £845 on it bu tit's the best moenth that i'cv esever EVAR EVAR epentded

leopsrd is better htan tieger
tiger has strikes
leopard has spotssss!!!!@!!
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Miko
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2007-10-30, 21:47

No buyers remorse here, I think Leopard is a solid upgrade, regardless of how much time and energy is put into any piece of software the true test comes when released to the public. you can't simulate every scenario, although some things I would have to question.
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thegeriatric
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2007-10-30, 21:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbulentfurball View Post
omg it's so owrth it!!!!! i send liek amube £845 on it bu tit's the best moenth that i'cv esever EVAR EVAR epentded

leopsrd is better htan tieger
tiger has strikes
leopard has spotssss!!!!@!!
Steady turby (I can call you turby can't i?) you'll start a *kernel panic!!*
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turbulentfurball
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2007-10-30, 22:02

vertyone claes mne turyb!!!!
it's like th e furbyt


EVil toy for kids


but I want one!!!!


I 'm owkrking in very ssooon


but it's notr a god idaae


eating fpppd and drinkng water to feeel better
not working!!!!!!!!!!!!11!
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RowdyScot
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2007-10-31, 00:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbulentfurball View Post
vertyone claes mne turyb!!!!
it's like th e furbyt


EVil toy for kids


but I want one!!!!


I 'm owkrking in very ssooon


but it's notr a god idaae


eating fpppd and drinkng water to feeel better
not working!!!!!!!!!!!!11!
Classic.
  quote
hmurchison
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2007-10-31, 06:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by travisc77 View Post
I hear you, I don't really feel ripped off either. Although, a part of me feels like there could have been more to it after 2+years and the delay. The speed/stability will seem more noticeable after more use, but Tiger was pretty stable.
It doesn't appear this way from your post. Typically when someone feels like something is missing they articulate exactly what's missing. Your post seems to be kin to many that I see in that you didn't really know what you wanted but held out for Apple to "surprise" you and what Apple delivered was logical and most importantly deliverable yet missing that "magic bullet"

For me I don't have Leopard yet but I'm totally happy with the upgrade as far as features go. I'd give it a 8.5 out of a 10. A 10 OS upgrade for me would have had.

1. Voice Recognition built in for speech to text.
2. An Uninstaller that works flawlessly.
3. Read/write ZFS access
4. Support for Yahoo and MSN in iChat
5. Read/Write of NTFS volumes.

Those expecting radical shifts will be disappointed. Leopard is about improving functionality at almost every level of the OS. First let's get the basics working right and then worry about tectonic shifts.

omgwtfbbq
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travisc77
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2007-10-31, 09:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post
...For me I don't have Leopard yet but I'm totally happy with the upgrade as far as features go. I'd give it a 8.5 out of a 10. A 10 OS upgrade for me would have had.

1. Voice Recognition built in for speech to text.
2. An Uninstaller that works flawlessly.
3. Read/write ZFS access
4. Support for Yahoo and MSN in iChat
5. Read/Write of NTFS volumes.

Those expecting radical shifts will be disappointed. Leopard is about improving functionality at almost every level of the OS. First let's get the basics working right and then worry about tectonic shifts.
You may have read to much into my post. I wasn't looking for a surprise, I was merely sparking debate on what should be considered a significant upgrade. Although a significant "under the hood" upgrade with a few bells and whistles, it could be fair to say Leopard is to Tiger what Service Pack 2 was to WinXP, no? Obviously there are clearly happy upgraders, and I fall much closer to that group than the dissatisfied ones. But I think its OK every now and then to step back and challenge the Apple dogma.

As for "radical shifts", that's kind of what Apple was touting, "Hello Tomorrow". The hyperbole started back in 2006 WWDC when SJ said he was holding back "Secret" features so that Redmond wouldn't copy them. All I'm saying is that when the hype machine roles, it sets expectation a little higher, then its fair to examine the results more closely.

Just my 2 cents. Thanks for all the great comments, especially the ones related to the developer tools and the Ars article, very helpful in understanding the underpinnings of the work on Leopard.
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MAJB
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2007-10-31, 09:27

I am fairly happy with the upgrade, although I suspect that the way I use my computer, I won't use/notice many of the changes. Spaces is innovative and a great evolution of expose, but basically just boils down to a way to organise open windows. Likewise, the changes made to Mail seem largely cosmetic, although very welcome. I don't really know why Mail is included as an OS feature and not an iLife or iWork addition.

The thing that annoys me more than anything else is the removal of the wireless Time Machine feature via an Airport Extreme. Hopefully this will be reinstated via an upgrade at a later stage.

Overall, I am pleased with the upgrade and have noted increased speed when opening windows, applications, etc. but I have not been blown off my feet. There are certainly bugs that need to be sorted (e.g. when in iPhoto in one space and trying to publish to a web gallery when Safari is in another space, iPhoto hangs) but I'm sure these will be ironed out.
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Taskiss
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2007-10-31, 09:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by wackymacky View Post
It's worth every penny of the 10 bucks I spent for the Up-to-date.
I'm not yet convinced of a great advance from OS 10.4
Have you read the article Jerman linked?
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dfiler
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2007-10-31, 14:49

Only things that make it worth it for me are:
iChat theater / screen sharing
and
graceful loss of network mounts in the finder

Otherwise, I would probably forget that I even upgraded. (Well except for the fact that stacks suck and the dock no longer works well for accessing folder contents)
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jcoley2
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2007-10-31, 14:55

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeandSpace View Post
Spaces and it's more efficient are alone worth it.
Agreed 100%. IN fact, I am surprised it took this long for some one to do this. I was going to order a second 30" screen but now I am thinking spaces is good enough. Hence, spending the $129 was totally worth it.

Now that I got a job, I can buy more Apple products!
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Koodari
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2007-10-31, 16:04

Has anyone found a hack for different desktop backgrounds on each space?
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hmurchison
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2007-10-31, 23:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by travisc77 View Post
... it could be fair to say Leopard is to Tiger what Service Pack 2 was to WinXP, no? Obviously there are clearly happy upgraders, and I fall much closer to that group than the dissatisfied ones. But I think its OK every now and then to step back and challenge the Apple dogma.
You could call anything "fair" after all what "is" or "isn't" fair is purely subjective. My stance will be Leopard is far more of a leap than what a Service Pack would entail. That's pretty clear to see IMO.

Tiger handled multicore CPU and threading in an ok fashion but it wasn't efficient- Leopard handles them better with new API (Affinity API and NSoperation) which now allows groups of threads to be locked to a CPU/Shared Cache and if you prefer not to deal with threads the NSoperation/nsoperationqueue lets you work with break down your apps into objects and the OS handles the threading and priority.

We get robust changes to the Filesystem in AutoFS and FSEvents- The first threads the network/shared volumes. You can now delete mounted partitions one at a time even on the same drive and there's no lockup going on. The FSevents allows for global notifications of filesystem changes. If your apps needs to know what's going on it now has an external API to manage that.

Quicktime Kit- supports the simultaneous recording/playback of high quality audio and video and is 64-bit to boot.

Core Animation- Geez I'd love to have this window just fade out or slide over here how do I do that? In Tiger you're putting in a lot of work. In Leopard it's a breeze.

Hell let me stop here. Apple could have claimed 400 new features. From my view it's not a Service Pack in any stretch of the imagination. I'm all for debate too but someone has to lead off with a compelling argument about what is missing in Leopard before there is any meat to the discussion.

Let's face it. Tiger was "almost" there and it was clear. Hell 3rd parties couldn't even write to iCal. No screen sharing without ARD and sync features that sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. A finder that balked on folders with lots of files. A slow Spotlight that couldn't search for file names or phrases.

Even forgetting about substantial development updates like Obj C 2.0, Xcode 3 and Interace Builder 3.0 we have a substantial leap forward. Resolution Independence hasn't been turned on yet but it's there. The UI is on a dedicated thread to the GPU.

Apple has delivered features that people won't understand until they try them out in ernest. Spaces allows you to run multiple apps that work well in Full Screen mode without expose'ing like crazy. Quick Look is great for files where you don't want to launch a program to peer further into the file.

With Leopard I see productivity gains. I see that once again an Apple development team once again has outdone what Microsoft has been able to accomplish with likely 5x the programmers.

Is Leopard worth it? I'd surmise it is if you value productivity in any way.

omgwtfbbq
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sirnick4
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2007-11-01, 00:45

Amen.
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PB PM
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2007-11-01, 01:46

^^

Great post, entirely agree.
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